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  1. brokenball is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    [p]Strange. Everyone I know here in China, including the professionals say you should meet the ball even on an under spin.
    What do you mean by even?

    I’m taught to start the stroke from below and meet the ball at the tip of its curve.
    that is the easiest way as long as your stroke is upwards and not forwards. Obviously if the ball is high you can just smash it.

    Then add spin by rotating your forearm and “wrapping” around the ball.
    This is wrong, wrong, wrong. The ball already has a lot of spin.
    1 The ball is in contact with the rubber of maybe a little more than a millisecond. How much "wrapping" can you do in that time. Do the math! Don't believe what people tell you. Verify for yourself! If you can't I will do it on another post.
    2. While trying to wrap the ball, the attitude of the paddle is changing so if you hit the ball a little early or a little late, the ball will go to completely different spots.

    Now go back to those that told you to "wrap" the ball and ask them the same questions and to do the math
    I don't see the pros "wrapping" the ball. Look at the video I posted.

    Then I can choose to bring it up( for high slow topspin), or push it forward with my stroke for a loop kill.
    Are you saying that once you are "wrapping" the ball, that you can change your stroke?

    For counter topspin against topspin I’m taught to keep the blade almost flat and hit/brush it back.
    I think it’s just a difference in technique.
    Yes, this works but the ball must be rising off the table. Take a video of yourself from the side. You will see that what works requires the paddle to be tilted up or open a little. I first "looped' that way. There is little or no arc because the ball must be hit from above the net. This method doesn't work if the ball is low. Later, someone then put a chair 3 feet in behind the table and told me to play from behind the chair. I had to really loop where the ball arcs like in the Henzel video. There is a Timo Boll video on how he does a loop kill. It involves waiting/timing for the when the ball is about net height.

    I think it’s just a difference in technique.
    One should learn both so one can be flexible or have options. Obviously hitting off the bounce is not an option if back from the table.

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    What do you mean by even?


    that is the easiest way as long as your stroke is upwards and not forwards. Obviously if the ball is high you can just smash it.


    This is wrong, wrong, wrong. The ball already has a lot of spin.
    1 The ball is in contact with the rubber of maybe a little more than a millisecond. How much "wrapping" can you do in that time. Do the math! Don't believe what people tell you. Verify for yourself! If you can't I will do it on another post.
    2. While trying to wrap the ball, the attitude of the paddle is changing so if you hit the ball a little early or a little late, the ball will go to completely different spots.

    Now go back to those that told you to "wrap" the ball and ask them the same questions and to do the math
    I don't see the pros "wrapping" the ball. Look at the video I posted.


    Are you saying that once you are "wrapping" the ball, that you can change your stroke?


    Yes, this works but the ball must be rising off the table. Take a video of yourself from the side. You will see that what works requires the paddle to be tilted up or open a little. I first "looped' that way. There is little or no arc because the ball must be hit from above the net. This method doesn't work if the ball is low. Later, someone then put a chair 3 feet in behind the table and told me to play from behind the chair. I had to really loop where the ball arcs like in the Henzel video. There is a Timo Boll video on how he does a loop kill. It involves waiting/timing for the when the ball is about net height.


    One should learn both so one can be flexible or have options. Obviously hitting off the bounce is not an option if back from the table.
    First of all, I’ve tried these techniques and they work. If you want to argue with a retired Beijing team player( coach) or my classmates( Beijing TT Championship Mens singles champion), go ahead, I’m sure you have the skill to say they don’t know what they are doing.
    For me, I trained more than thousands of times to get the perfect timing and I still don’t have it. This is why Table Tennis in China is so hard, the techniques have minor differences to the western ones, and takes way more practice.
    On the other hand, I might have phrased the previous post wrong. I apologize. I meant to say that I “wrap” around the ball so it’s going forward and then push forward if I want it to go forward for a fast topspin that is low. If I want a high topspin I would just close the stroke in front of my head. I’m not going to describe all the body movements cause they are the same just lower stance than other countries. Either way, I make contact with the ball when the bat forms a straight angle with the ground.
    About the “topspin on topspin”. First of all, a low arc and good timing, sounds Chinese! But seriously, a low arc is what we want and what we get with a tacky rubber. As for the timing, that’s why we train so much. Yes, the racket is not completely parallel to the ground, but only a little tilt. Also to begin the stroke you bring the bat mostly backward and a little downwards. A good player should be able to use his arm to guide a low ball up. If the shot is short then we just drive it. I’ve seen it work beautifully.
    Another key point is we are told to shorten our stroke according to the situation.
    No matter what happens the stroke almost always ends in front of my face.

    About the video. I am still recovering from a large knee surgery and won’t be playing anytime soon. Sad about it.

    Modestly, Leo

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    #23
    It’s not particularly Chinese. I’m in Europe and I’m learning the same thing. And countless of european players I know of doing the same thing. I certainly didn’t invent it. And I mean it’s all over youtube as well. I haven’t seen any national players on youtube coaching NOT mentioning it. Chinese, german, japanese, korean, vietnamese. And gosh, I WATCH A TON. My Club friends, who are coaches / players, told me about it. Obviously the ways it’s described are different from one to another. But it’s pretty much the same once you understand it.

    admittedly, one has to start with a straight swing first, or at least that’s how things are coached here. That’s the basic without grabbing the ball. But then it goes further from there.

    that’s to give PingBirdPong a bit perspective about European stuff I guess.

    btw. This sort of conversation has happened before and before and before. I have to apologise in advance that I’m not very good at debating. So I said what I said and Im done with this thread. Im just a learner so please do take what I said with a huge pinch of salt.

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    #24
    Btw, before I go. Table tennis is a sport of touch. Even the strongest loop needs a very strong touch. Because the contact is the hardest of all. And it’s not just gifted. There are techniques out there to improve it. Sadly enough it’s a little overlooked by adult learners.

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    #25
    Deciding what is better - A top spin, or a loop kill, is not a problem of the general differences between the strokes.
    A Top Spin may be more efficient than a Lop Kill and vice versa.
    What would give a better result is a matter of many factors, but the Decision is the least.
    In reality the efficiency will depend on your position, your ability to move and posture according to the incoming ball, your technique and your blade set up, and your synergy with your set up /for example MOG has no synergy with any kind of set up/.

    BB has said many troughs, and at the same time many things, that are not true.

    A chopped ball can be Top Spin killed if you are at the right place,
    a chopped ball can be Loop Killed if you are at the right place.
    With some set ups you can fish and loop kill chopped balls at a distance other set ups would not, and it will depend on your technique too, and on your synergy with the set up. Some would require longer distance, some would benefit even very close to the table. Some will loop high and slow, some can make it low and fast and sharp just like a top spin spike rather than a loop, though you make a loop, even taking the ball bellow the table level, I have described it long before.

    But, anyway - it's not a matter which is better, but what is better at the moment, where you are at the moment and what you can do with the ball at that moment.
    If you can kill an ascending ball with a top spin - kill it.
    If you are late and have to hit a descending ball - loop it, or top-spin-kill it, depending on your set up and your technique.

    Everything else is just blah-blah-blah.



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    #26
    all great reviews... thank you all guys

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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Deciding what is better - A top spin, or a loop kill, is not a problem of the general differences between the strokes.
    A Top Spin may be more efficient than a Lop Kill and vice versa.
    What would give a better result is a matter of many factors, but the Decision is the least.
    In reality the efficiency will depend on your position, your ability to move and posture according to the incoming ball, your technique and your blade set up, and your synergy with your set up /for example MOG has no synergy with any kind of set up/.

    BB has said many troughs, and at the same time many things, that are not true.

    A chopped ball can be Top Spin killed if you are at the right place,
    a chopped ball can be Loop Killed if you are at the right place.
    With some set ups you can fish and loop kill chopped balls at a distance other set ups would not, and it will depend on your technique too, and on your synergy with the set up. Some would require longer distance, some would benefit even very close to the table. Some will loop high and slow, some can make it low and fast and sharp just like a top spin spike rather than a loop, though you make a loop, even taking the ball bellow the table level, I have described it long before.

    But, anyway - it's not a matter which is better, but what is better at the moment, where you are at the moment and what you can do with the ball at that moment.
    If you can kill an ascending ball with a top spin - kill it.
    If you are late and have to hit a descending ball - loop it, or top-spin-kill it, depending on your set up and your technique.

    Everything else is just blah-blah-blah.
    You are right. It depends too much on the situation. There is no theory that can possibly decide this. I’ll stop arguing
    Modestly, Leo

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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    You are right. It depends too much on the situation. There is no theory that can possibly decide this. I’ll stop arguing

    That is why I F3ck1ng love TT!

    Two wooden paddle, two sponges, two rubber topsheets and one 2.7g of spherical plastic ball. Yet it gives rise to so diverse way of playing!

    Luv it! Luv it! 😍


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    #29
    Can the OP post a video?

    I find the discussions you have pretty interesting but I do not know if it help the OP?

    I feel like as a part time coach that too much information to a player and to much change at once is just to difficult. If we see a video and focus on one thing at a time. Big difference learning something from beginning and relearn something.

    Also want to point out that it do not need to be perfect stroke mechanics as long as it works and suit your game.

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  10. Der_Echte is offline
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    #30
    I would want to know and see whih ball OP is talking about. (ball speed, vector of travel, amount/type of spin) I would want to know how early or how late OP is intending to hit the ball. I would want to know at what height relative to body OP intends to hit.

    There are adjustments and different impacts to handle that.

    In general, if taking it earlier off bounce on the rise, there is already vertical energy to borrow and there is less need for lifting force. If taking it later in flight, more lifting force needed. That can be done a few ways with bat angle, swing plane, grip and grip change. One thing needed in all cases is a really fast bat speed, regardless of how slow or fast one wants to hit. One thing a lot of players never learn is how to firm right at impact to kill the spin and add his/her own. Doing this and making almost defies physics to the eye as it looks impossible to hit that way and land, but it works. Impact can absorb or oversome a lot of spin.

    Another thing to know if ball is high enough to hit, as there is another way to impact ball to HIT or smash vs underspin that involves opening up the bat, swinging forward and adjusting follow through for amount of spin. MANY players have never learned how to kill a higher heavy underspin ball and a really hard HIT or smash may be a better choice in some situations.
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    BB has said many troughs, and at the same time many things, that are not true.
    That is a cheap shot. Why don't you state what isn't true? Can you?

    I really don't see the what the argument is about. Any ball with top spin is a top spin ball. A loop kill is a subset of top spin balls.

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    Last edited by brokenball; 11-24-2021 at 09:13 AM.

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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by langel
    Deciding what is better - A top spin, or a loop kill, is not a problem of the general differences between the strokes.
    A Top Spin may be more efficient than a Lop Kill and vice versa.
    What would give a better result is a matter of many factors, but the Decision is the least.
    In reality the efficiency will depend on your position, your ability to move and posture according to the incoming ball, your technique and your blade set up, and your synergy with your set up /for example MOG has no synergy with any kind of set up/.

    BB has said many troughs, and at the same time many things, that are not true.

    A chopped ball can be Top Spin killed if you are at the right place,
    a chopped ball can be Loop Killed if you are at the right place.
    With some set ups you can fish and loop kill chopped balls at a distance other set ups would not, and it will depend on your technique too, and on your synergy with the set up. Some would require longer distance, some would benefit even very close to the table. Some will loop high and slow, some can make it low and fast and sharp just like a top spin spike rather than a loop, though you make a loop, even taking the ball bellow the table level, I have described it long before.

    But, anyway - it's not a matter which is better, but what is better at the moment, where you are at the moment and what you can do with the ball at that moment.
    If you can kill an ascending ball with a top spin - kill it.
    If you are late and have to hit a descending ball - loop it, or top-spin-kill it, depending on your set up and your technique.

    Everything else is just blah-blah-blah.

    why do you have to be rude? if you make statements like this you should back it up with facts or back down and apologize

    ppp

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    #33

    i must say i think the term “loop kill” is just as silly as “rocket loop”

    I much prefer the terms from the old Butterfly Table Tennis report:

    A topspin against a low chopped ball = Lifting Drive
    Because of the high arc this ball kicks up and forward

    A topspin against a high chopped ball = Sinking Drive
    Because it dives toward the floor as in the Henzell Muramatsu example

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    Last edited by pingpongpaddy; 11-24-2021 at 01:27 PM.
    ppp

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    #34
    I don't think I've seen BB say anything that's untrue, I find it hard to disagree with what he says. Though he does express himself in words that are quite unfamiliar to myself and others that aren't as versed in science as he is.

    In the end I really think most of us are saying very similar stuff but expressing it differently and often it's the difference in expression that we take issue with.

    Most of this stuff is difficult to express in words - let alone on a forum where we can't see each other's playing backgrounds or how we've come to think how we think. Showing it and then expressing in words would make things a little easier and even then it's not easy. No wonder there is so much debate on forums 😀.

    One thing I will say though is just because someone is a very good player does not mean they are good at accurately telling what's really going on and what you should do. Top players learn mostly at a young age through practice, intuition and copying other good players around them, trying to figure out what they're really telling you to do can be difficult if your technique isn't on their level.

    Here is a video of me looping backspin balls, keep in mind there are many things I could be doing much better - it's just an example of my experience, so don't take it as gospel and experiment yourself to figure out what works best for you.


    Here's what I'm doing from my perspective (I'm left handed so think of the opposite if you're right handed):
    I'm trying to jump into the backswing so my hips are turned and my right leg knee is folded down. I'm also trying to bend from my hips so my back isn't too vertical (I could bend from my hip more for more lift)
    Then I push with my left leg and glute as I quickly do the backswing to let my hips and upperbody turn forward and then my arm just follows along and the bat happens to collide with the ball. It would all have to be adapted against balls with more or less spin and different heights, but I feel like that's the basics of it and the rest comes with practice and experience.

    For the most part I'm going for max racket speed to practice killing the ball - I believe I could be a bit more relaxed and make my movement more efficient for it to be better.

    On some balls I decide to wait slightly longer and unfold my torso more to let my racket swing more up to just put the ball on the table with more spin instead of speed. See 1.26

    Hope it's of some help.



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    #35
    For your information: Brokenball has been banned for a week. We probably won’t see a reply from him.
    Modestly, Leo

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    #36
    Wonder if the pic of the card shows.

    https://media.boingboing.net/wp-cont...8584169596.jpg

    Last edited by Der_Echte; 11-25-2021 at 07:06 PM.
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Wonder if the pic of the card shows.

    https://media.boingboing.net/wp-cont...8584169596.jpg

    YEEES! What a fine way!

    Zeio's term should be reduced, at least equalized :-) You can't shut the sun anyway! And black-hole neither, for that matter :-) Not that I have much against the high quality state of the matter in the black-hole though :-)

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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    Can the OP post a video?

    I find the discussions you have pretty interesting but I do not know if it help the OP?

    I feel like as a part time coach that too much information to a player and to much change at once is just to difficult. If we see a video and focus on one thing at a time. Big difference learning something from beginning and relearn something.

    Also want to point out that it do not need to be perfect stroke mechanics as long as it works and suit your game.
    Â

    Sorry, I can't share videos yet.
    I don't have a permanent coach yet. I like ping pong because it's a hobby and for sports. maybe at some point I'll post the video.
    thank you all for the reviews!
    very helpful!


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