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  1. Hasna Haura Hayfa is offline
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    #1

    Top Spin vs Loop Kill

    Hello everyone, permission to share
    to destroy heavy underspin balls, can it be with a strong top spin, or by forehand fast loop kill, I'm still having trouble with loop kill, because I can't loop kill like ma long.. hee
    please input for those who are professionals against heavy backspins

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    #2
    Imo going going for a winner against backspin is a low percentage strategy for amateur players unless the backspin is too short or bounces too high. If it floats high you can kill it but if it is a good low backspin ball I would hit a soft spinny loop and then if the opponent blocks it back you try to hit a more fast and offensive shot.

    loop killing a good low backspin ball reliably takes a ton of practice.

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  3. Gozo is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Hasna Haura Hayfa
    Hello everyone, permission to shareto destroy heavy underspin balls, can it be with a strong top spin, or by forehand fast loop kill, I'm still having trouble with loop kill, because I can't loop kill like ma long.. heeplease input for those who are professionals against heavy backspins

    First of you are no Ma Long and you do not practice 8 hours a day for six days in a week. That is what differentiate us amateurs versus them pro. We do it for fun / exercise / social / hobby, They do it for salary / bonus / pension fund / medical benefit.To us, TT is a weekend / after work activity. To them, TT is work / career. Know the difference.

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    Last edited by Gozo; 11-22-2021 at 02:10 AM.

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    #4
    Do multiball.

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    #5
    Going for a loop kill against a very spinny back spin is very difficult because you can't hit through the ball like you normally would. You need to bring the paddle back down behind your knee and swing up more than forward. However, if your increase the spin of the ball, it will have lots of top spin so it will bounce out low and fast. If you can manage an angle the chopper may not be able to get tot the ball.

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    #6
    Thank's very helpful 😀

  7. zeio is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Going for a loop kill against a very spinny back spin is very difficult because you can't hit through the ball like you normally would.
    Literal verdict: Bogus opinion based on bogus term.
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    'hit through' is a bogus term. The force of impact is transmitted through the rubber to the blade. Newton's 3rd law. Again, it is a matter of how fast. If it is only a few microseconds then everything is seeing the same force.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Literal verdict: Bogus opinion based on bogus term.
    You quote without context but you are right. Hit through what or where? It is sloppy. The stroke must apply force upwards and eccentric. That is a good description of what must be done. I know you like the word eccentric because you have used it before. Applying force through or near the center of the ball does not work when trying to loop back spin.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Going for a loop kill against a very spinny back spin is very difficult because you can't hit through the ball like you normally would. You need to bring the paddle back down behind your knee and swing up more than forward. However, if your increase the spin of the ball, it will have lots of top spin so it will bounce out low and fast. If you can manage an angle the chopper may not be able to get tot the ball.
    To my good fortune, I have a chopper in my club and boy they are a rarity. It is not easy to find chopper around these days to practice against.

    I just want to say when I first start to loop against his chop, I failed massively. But now I can topspin back his ball with relatively ease.

    However, I want to really say is that based on my experience, when I use Tensor rubber, my ball tends to go long and overshoots. Also, there is this muted / muffled feeling on my hand ( No vibration = no feedback )

    If I use tacky rubber, the ball have the most lovely trajectory but the most important is there is this vibration / crisp feeling that provides tonnes of feedback for me to adjust my stroke.



  10. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #10
    Loop killing is not hard. I’m no pro but in China everyone is trained to loop kill when possible and we mostly only practice fast and low loops. We are taught to play the minimum amount of high balls. I can loop kill a pretty heavy topspin with muscle memory now, it just takes practice.
    Modestly, Leo

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    #11
    Do not forget that look >>>kill<<< is different depending on the level you play.
    For example if i go for broke (stepping around my backhand and hitting with my forehand diagonally) and hit the shit out of the ball then i usually get the point with it, while against players around 200 points above myself they just will block that with ease.

    But that is definitly possible to learn at allmost every level though it is very demanding on your shoulder and muscles overall. Just checkout some slowmotions loopkills by Ma Long or FZD and try to copy their movement and then train it as often as you can.

    Although i wouldnt suggest to do it, because the technique is very demanding on your body as i said and on top not that easy to perform on a regular basis. There way more important and easier to perform shots which can give you the points you need to win.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Literal verdict: Bogus opinion based on bogus term.

    Great Posting style insulting the poster and not offering a constructive criticism on how to do it better.


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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by zeio
    Literal verdict: Bogus opinion based on bogus term.
    Yes, this was taken out of context. I was responding to someone talking about hitting through the rubber and the blade. Not, hitting through the ball but now we can see that 'hit through' has no defined meaning.

  14. Hasna Haura Hayfa is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    Loop killing is not hard. I’m no pro but in China everyone is trained to loop kill when possible and we mostly only practice fast and low loops. We are taught to play the minimum amount of high balls. I can loop kill a pretty heavy topspin with muscle memory now, it just takes practice.
    Â

    You are right, I read on pingsunday.com, they were trained how to spin the ball strong and fast


  15. Gozo is offline
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Attitude
    Do not forget that look >>>kill<<< is different depending on the level you play.
    For example if i go for broke (stepping around my backhand and hitting with my forehand diagonally) and hit the shit out of the ball then i usually get the point with it, while against players around 200 points above myself they just will block that with ease.

    But that is definitly possible to learn at allmost every level though it is very demanding on your shoulder and muscles overall. Just checkout some slowmotions loopkills by Ma Long or FZD and try to copy their movement and then train it as often as you can.

    Although i wouldnt suggest to do it, because the technique is very demanding on your body as i said and on top not that easy to perform on a regular basis. There way more important and easier to perform shots which can give you the points you need to win.

    tell me about it! On certain occasion when playing against newbies, I would do this pivot thingy and then hit a outright winner, I will feel like Fan Zhendong and be on cloud nine and CHO-LEH like Harimoto.

    On another occasion, against higher seeded player, he would just casually block to my far FH corner and bring me back to reality.

    Such is the life of an amateur TT player. Sigh and sigh again.

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    #16
    Analyzing Henzel's loops
    You have obviously seen the video but do you really know what is going on?
    I had problems looping back spin years ago. The problem was that the coach and anyone that I was practicing against was across the table. It wasn't until I filmed myself from the side that I realize the mistake I was making. In short I was swinging forward to meet the ball. This is so wrong. This happens for two reasons.
    1. Chopped balls and back spin balls in general do not bounce forwards as much as topspin balls do. After they hit the table they seem to slow down. That natural thing to do is to swing forward to meet the ball which is wrong. The right thing to do is to wait and let the ball come to you. You should have your paddle lower than the ball and then swing up and just forward enough to to get the ball over the net. The upwards motion must be fast enough to match or exceed the rotational surface speed of a ball. For a loop kill you must swing faster and a little more forward so the tangential friction of the paddle tends to pull or drag the ball forward (1). This requires a faster stroke. The stroke should also be like you are throwing a discus. The paddle angle and stroke should be in the same plane.

    2. The second problem has to do with human anatomy. It is too easy to rotate your arm from the shoulder. This results in more of a scooping action than an discus throw action. The problem with rotating the arm from the shoulder is that the first part of the motion is forward and not up. If one hits the ball when the paddle is not moving up enough, the ball goes into the net. I make this error too often when I get tired. I see rookies make this error all the time. Even Henzel makes this error early in the video.

    It takes concentration to wait for the ball and then brush it with consistency.

    (1) BTW, the Chinese call a loop a pull ball or 拉球 or Lā qiú in pinyin which is pronounced "la cho". Lets see what zero has to say about that.

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  17. Gozo is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Analyzing Henzel's loops
    You have obviously seen the video but do you really know what is going on?
    I had problems looping back spin years ago. The problem was that the coach and anyone that I was practicing against was across the table. It wasn't until I filmed myself from the side that I realize the mistake I was making. In short I was swinging forward to meet the ball. This is so wrong. This happens for two reasons.
    1. Chopped balls and back spin balls in general do not bounce forwards as much as topspin balls do. After they hit the table they seem to slow down. That natural thing to do is to swing forward to meet the ball which is wrong. The right thing to do is to wait and let the ball come to you. You should have your paddle lower than the ball and then swing up and just forward enough to to get the ball over the net. The upwards motion must be fast enough to match or exceed the rotational surface speed of a ball. For a loop kill you must swing faster and a little more forward so the tangential friction of the paddle tends to pull or drag the ball forward (1). This requires a faster stroke. The stroke should also be like you are throwing a discus. The paddle angle and stroke should be in the same plane.

    2. The second problem has to do with human anatomy. It is too easy to rotate your arm from the shoulder. This results in more of a scooping action than an discus throw action. The problem with rotating the arm from the shoulder is that the first part of the motion is forward and not up. If one hits the ball when the paddle is not moving up enough, the ball goes into the net. I make this error too often when I get tired. I see rookies make this error all the time. Even Henzel makes this error early in the video.

    It takes concentration to wait for the ball and then brush it with consistency.

    (1) BTW, the Chinese call a loop a pull ball or 拉球 or Lā qiú in pinyin which is pronounced "la cho". Lets see what zero has to say about that.

    Betul! betul! betul! ( Translation from Malay language to English: Correct! Correct! Correct! )

    The term la qiu is very often heard in my club as well, in fact there is an oft repeated mantra amongst my mandarin speaking clubmates, la qiu bu shi da qiu! ( translation: pull the ball, not hit the ball )

    NB: Pull here actually meant brush or spin the ball.

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    Last edited by Gozo; 11-23-2021 at 05:36 AM.

  18. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #18
    Actually, here in China “la qui” means Topspin against underspin. (Loop kill or not)
    “la hu quan” means Loop kill or counterloop.
    Modestly, Leo

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Analyzing Henzel's loops
    You have obviously seen the video but do you really know what is going on?
    I had problems looping back spin years ago. The problem was that the coach and anyone that I was practicing against was across the table. It wasn't until I filmed myself from the side that I realize the mistake I was making. In short I was swinging forward to meet the ball. This is so wrong. This happens for two reasons.
    1. Chopped balls and back spin balls in general do not bounce forwards as much as topspin balls do. After they hit the table they seem to slow down. That natural thing to do is to swing forward to meet the ball which is wrong. The right thing to do is to wait and let the ball come to you. You should have your paddle lower than the ball and then swing up and just forward enough to to get the ball over the net. The upwards motion must be fast enough to match or exceed the rotational surface speed of a ball. For a loop kill you must swing faster and a little more forward so the tangential friction of the paddle tends to pull or drag the ball forward (1). This requires a faster stroke. The stroke should also be like you are throwing a discus. The paddle angle and stroke should be in the same plane.

    2. The second problem has to do with human anatomy. It is too easy to rotate your arm from the shoulder. This results in more of a scooping action than an discus throw action. The problem with rotating the arm from the shoulder is that the first part of the motion is forward and not up. If one hits the ball when the paddle is not moving up enough, the ball goes into the net. I make this error too often when I get tired. I see rookies make this error all the time. Even Henzel makes this error early in the video.

    It takes concentration to wait for the ball and then brush it with consistency.

    (1) BTW, the Chinese call a loop a pull ball or 拉球 or Lā qiú in pinyin which is pronounced "la cho". Lets see what zero has to say about that.

    Strange. Everyone I know here in China, including the professionals say you should meet the ball even on an under spin. I’m taught to start the stroke from below and meet the ball at the tip of its curve. Then add spin by rotating your forearm and “wrapping” around the ball. Then I can choose to bring it up( for high slow topspin), or push it forward with my stroke for a loop kill.
    For counter topspin against topspin I’m taught to keep the blade almost flat and hit/brush it back.
    I think it’s just a difference in technique.

    Modestly, Leo

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    #20
    It’s not a difference in techniques. It depends on what your problem is and what you are trying to fix to have a different perspective.

    If you are having a problem with timing, the best way to fix it is to let the ball come toward you. You’ll see how it drops and you come from below it. Also you train how to step closer. same goes for spin. If you cannot spin a lot but can hit the ball hard quite regularly, it’s timing problem. Because spinning is very sensitive to contact.

    if you are ok with that. Then you have to learn how to do that on the move, quick and powerful. Then the concept of “secondary acceleration” that zeio mentioned long ago comes in. You accelerate toward the ball, just like with any shot, by the body, slowly. (ofcourse from a very low position that all Chinese naturally does since you are forced to with hurricane rubbers).But just when you are about to meet it, you do your full acceleration, with wrist / bat angle adjustment. Your swing will be a lot quicker and you have more control on contact.

    in China, since everybody gets coached by nature of your system. The first part has gone on very early. (This last sentence is just my speculation, but the 2 parts up there are what I’m actually learning)

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