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  1. Hephys is offline
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    #1

    Frustration over first non pre-assembled blade

    Hi everyone,
    Apologies for what's probably going to be a long post, I will highlight key points you can read to get the full picture and add a TL;DR at the end.
    I've been playing in a club for 4 months, twice a week, 2-3 hours per session, with a cheap pre-made JOOLA Carbon Pro (€ 25 on Amazon). Being very enthusiastic and fairly new - I only played casually as a kid - I can say I've made a lot of progress in a short time and was finally able to play with some experienced players without the feeling of wasting their time.
    Couple of weeks ago I decided it was time to get a proper blade and last week I went to a well known table tennis store in Berlin. I showed them my cheap blade and told them I wanted something around the same weight to start learning/applying some spin.
    They gave me a blade and we had 5 mins of basic fh and bh. It felt great and it was on sale for €69 (from € 100) so I got it. While they were assembling it they told me they ran out of that particular blade but they had an identical model from Joola and I said it was fine.

    Blade: Joola Holz O-Allround (Allround, OFF minus)
    FH and BH: Tibhar Game 2.0mm (74-041)


    I went to the club to test it out and I couldn't get a ball over the net. Now, after some hours of playing, I can only play defensively and block because as soon as I do or even think of something slightly offensive the ball just won't get past the net - especially if I'm playing with a Joola flash ball rather than something softer.

    Why is this happening? Are the blade and/or the rubber too fast for me? Should I keep trying or should I just get a blade that's better / easier / fitting more my playstyle?

    Thank you very much in advance for all the support, opinions and critiques.

    TL;DR going from a cheap pre-assembled blade to a "good" one is proving to be very... challenging

  2. GrayGhost is offline
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    #2
    Never heard of that rubber and can’t find any info and the blade looks to be euro only. I saw a website it was 20£ maybe someone else can chime in.

  3. pgpg is offline
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    #3
    To clarify - when you say "the ball won't get past the net", this usually implies that your racket is slow compared to your old setup. But then you ask "is the blade/rubber too fast for me?", so I'm a bit confused.

    I would expect your new racket to be faster compared to your old premade (their rubbers are usually quite dead and don't have much grip), so some adjustment will be needed. That's where spinning the ball will help you hitting the table more often. You probably will also become more sensitive to incoming spin, just a fair warning .

  4. Gozo is offline
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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephys
    Hi everyone,Apologies for what's probably going to be a long post, I will highlight key points you can read to get the full picture and add a TL;DR at the end.I've been playing in a club for 4 months, twice a week, 2-3 hours per session, with a cheap pre-made JOOLA Carbon Pro (€ 25 on Amazon). Being very enthusiastic and fairly new - I only played casually as a kid - I can say I've made a lot of progress in a short time and was finally able to play with some experienced players without the feeling of wasting their time.Couple of weeks ago I decided it was time to get a proper blade and last week I went to a well known table tennis store in Berlin. I showed them my cheap blade and told them I wanted something around the same weight to start learning/applying some spin.They gave me a blade and we had 5 mins of basic fh and bh. It felt great and it was on sale for €69 (from € 100) so I got it. While they were assembling it they told me they ran out of that particular blade but they had an identical model from Joola and I said it was fine.Blade: Joola Holz O-Allround (Allround, OFF minus)FH and BH: Tibhar Game 2.0mm (74-041)I went to the club to test it out and I couldn't get a ball over the net. Now, after some hours of playing, I can only play defensively and block because as soon as I do or even think of something slightly offensive the ball just won't get past the net - especially if I'm playing with a Joola flash ball rather than something softer.Why is this happening? Are the blade and/or the rubber too fast for me? Should I keep trying or should I just get a blade that's better / easier / fitting more my playstyle?Thank you very much in advance for all the support, opinions and critiques.TL;DR going from a cheap pre-assembled blade to a "good" one is proving to be very... challenging
    Clues:
    1. Played for 4 mths
    2. Won't get pass net

    Diagnosis: Most likely did not topspin and rely on flat hit. It is ok, these are very very common newbies unforced error.

    Last edited by Gozo; 11-29-2021 at 03:34 AM.

  5. ejprinz is offline
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    #5
    Based on some googling, the blade you got is a 5-ply (no carbon) blade, and from the photo it looks like it's not Limba top surface (probably Koto). Since it's an allround blade it probably has 3 Ayous layers under the Koto. So that's a similar blade as:
    http://www.princett.com/EN/USD/produ...e-wood-43.html

    Compared to the "carbon infused" Joola Pro blade this blade is probably much slower. I've never heard "carbon-infused" before so this could mean anything.
    Also the rubbers can't be found on say tabletennis11.com so not sure what they are.

    So very likely the 5-ply blade plus no-name rubbers are much slower than the blade you had, which means you need to put a lot more power to the ball. Also if the rubbers are not good you can't spin well to begin with.

    I would have a coach have a look at the racket and get a recommendation. If you think if you are ready for a faster blade look for an OFF blade either 5-ply (Limba/Limba/Ayous/Limba/Limba) like the highly regarded XIOM Offensive S:
    https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_...om-offensive-s

    or the Yinhe E3:
    http://www.princett.com/EN/USD/produ...e-wood-44.html

    or go for a internal structure Carbon blade like the Yinhe 970xxA but that one is pretty fast, although it feels like a wood blade due to the carbon being the internal layer:
    http://www.princett.com/EN/USD/produ...force-371.html

    Even better play a few friends' rackets and find out what you like.

    For rubbers, check the top 10 page at:
    https://blog.tabletennis11.com/the-t...ubbers-of-2019

    In general, you can build a OFF blade which is good for top spin game for $140 at tabletennis11.com (e.g. Yasaka Ma Lin Soft Carbon + 2 x FastArc G1) or if you are on a budget for $60 at princett.com (Yinhe T-8S + 2 x Yinhe Moon Soft + shipping). Don't be fooled by the price, the Yinhe Moon rubbers come with rubber protector films, glue already applied, but you still need to the glue for the blade). Also there are some "industry standard" blade architectures and the Yinhe versions are very cost-effective.

    I would definitely read the reviews at revspin.net for the rubbers and the blade before I buy.

    Also watch these YouTube videos:
    https://youtu.be/4wyCaD22kWU
    and
    https://youtu.be/Rido2a-Q4Po
    to get oriented.

    The Following User Likes ejprinz's Post:

    GrayGhost

    Last edited by ejprinz; 11-29-2021 at 04:02 AM.
    Yinhe Pro Feeling, Nittaku FastArc G-1 (FH), Yinhe Moon Soft (BH)

  6. latej is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hephys
    I went to the club to test it out and I couldn't get a ball over the net. Now, after some hours of playing, I can only play defensively and block because as soon as I do or even think of something slightly offensive the ball just won't get past the net - especially if I'm playing with a Joola flash ball rather than something softer.
    It's possible your new blade is actually slower than the premade one, but that should not cause what you say.

    There is a *minor* possibility the rubbers are not glued properly. Check if the bat plays the same on both sides. If you want to be 100%, reglue the rubbers yourself, you'll need it anyway. I don't want to add more work to you, as I said, it is a minor, but definitely non-zero chance.
    Last edited by latej; 11-29-2021 at 12:27 PM.

  7. Dominikk85 is offline
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    #7
    I think it is due to a lack of skill which is perfectly normal after 4 months of play.

    Those ready made racket that you can buy like in a regular sports store (like decathlon or maybe real if you are in Germany) are usually easy to handle, their rubbers are not very grippy or bounce and they are good to just pancake the ball flat over the net like most "street" or basement players tend to do.

    Even though the cheap racket said "carbon" is was probably rather slow (typically more All or All+) and had slower and thinner sponge rubbers on it and it probably was easier to just slap the ball over.

    Don't play around with the equipment, an all wood off- is good for a player in his first 2-3 years of play.

    The rubbers I don't really know but probably they are fine, just learn a correct loop and flat counter drive technique and you should be fine, ideally with a few coaching lessons.

    If you still can't figure it out after two months maybe try a different rubber (the blade should be OK), but don't start switching rubbers all the time when your skill is not developed yet

    ​​​

  8. NDH is offline
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    #8
    I've been off the forums for a while, but it's good to see the same "copy/paste" answer to these questions still applies.

    If you are serious about improving, find a local coach who will be able to help you much more than any shop will.

    If you don't have a local coach (or can't afford one), find the best player you can, and simply ask for a little advice on the bat.

    Most players probably won't know too much about equipment (forums are the minority), but they will be able to give you much better advice having seen you play in person.

    Lastly, if you can post a video of you playing, it'll go a long way to helping advise what to do.

    Either way, 4 months in the sport is still super new, and there will be tons to learn. You want to learn with a relatively slow set up, so you can play full top spin shots without worrying about the ball flying off the table.

    As you improve, you'll start to learn what you can/can't do, and buy the equipment that compliments your game.

    Good luck!

    The Following User Likes NDH's Post:

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  9. Hephys is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GrayGhost
    Never heard of that rubber and can’t find any info and the blade looks to be euro only. I saw a website it was 20£ maybe someone else can chime in.
    And this bugs me to be honest because how can I even compare?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    Clues:
    1. Played for 4 mths
    2. Won't get pass net

    Diagnosis: Most likely did not topspin and rely on flat hit. It is ok, these are very very common newbies unforced error.

    I wouldn't say I didn't topspin at all, could it be I did not topspin enough?
    Quote Originally Posted by ejprinz
    Compared to the "carbon infused" Joola Pro blade this blade is probably much slower. I've never heard "carbon-infused" before so this could mean anything.
    Also the rubbers can't be found on say tabletennis11.com so not sure what they are.

    So very likely the 5-ply blade plus no-name rubbers are much slower than the blade you had, which means you need to put a lot more power to the ball. Also if the rubbers are not good you can't spin well to begin with.

    I would have a coach have a look at the racket and get a recommendation.

    In general, you can build a OFF blade which is good for top spin game for $140 at tabletennis11.com (e.g. Yasaka Ma Lin Soft Carbon + 2 x FastArc G1) or if you are on a budget for $60 at princett.com (Yinhe T-8S + 2 x Yinhe Moon Soft + shipping). Don't be fooled by the price, the Yinhe Moon rubbers come with rubber protector films, glue already applied, but you still need to the glue for the blade). Also there are some "industry standard" blade architectures and the Yinhe versions are very cost-effective.
    Thank you very much for the very comprehensive reply. Can these blades and rubbers be combined other ways? Like, what would happen if I had a Yasaka Ma Lin Soft Carbon + Yihne Moon Soft (instead of the suggested FastArc G1)? Also, should the rubber be 1.5, 1.8 or 2.0? I'm asking to understand a bit more and also because some items look harder to find than others.

    So some people are saying the pre-assembled must be slower because of production, others are saying the new one must be because I can't get the ball past the net so I'll try to clarify: what I mean by I can't get the ball past the net is that as long as I block or cut balls or anyway play very passive everything looks fine but if I try to apply some power or - god forbid - to smash, most of the time the ball hits the net rather than flying too high, even with easy to smash, well-above-the-net and (apparently) non-underspinned balls. Whilst with the old blade I can easily smash these and harder balls.

    So, what can I do in order to understand which of the two blades is faster?

    There's a coach at the club but will he (or anyone else) be able to say just by holding/looking at it?

    I will ask for feedback about the blade at the club but as far as I know only one person seems to understand materials.

  10. NDH is offline
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    #10

    Even if the players/coaches don't understand the blade/rubbers from just looking at them, they will be able to tell you by playing with them.

    Based on what you just said, it *looks* like (without video evidence, it's hard to really comment), but it looks like it's more of a "learning curve" with your own ability, rather than any equipment issue.

    I play with a TB ALC and T05, but even if I had a defensive blade and all around rubbers, I could still smash, hit fast top spins and play aggressively.

    I don't know the new rubbers you are using (can't find info on them - Can you post a pic of them?) - But that being said, the pre made bats you get are good for beginners because they are not very sensitive to spin.

    Whilst better rubbers allow you to play better shots with more spin, they will also be harder to get the ball back if someone is spinning at you.


  11. Hephys is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    Even if the players/coaches don't understand the blade/rubbers from just looking at them, they will be able to tell you by playing with them.

    Based on what you just said, it *looks* like (without video evidence, it's hard to really comment), but it looks like it's more of a "learning curve" with your own ability, rather than any equipment issue.

    I play with a TB ALC and T05, but even if I had a defensive blade and all around rubbers, I could still smash, hit fast top spins and play aggressively.

    I don't know the new rubbers you are using (can't find info on them - Can you post a pic of them?) - But that being said, the pre made bats you get are good for beginners because they are not very sensitive to spin.

    Whilst better rubbers allow you to play better shots with more spin, they will also be harder to get the ball back if someone is spinning at you.

    Very interesting points, especially the already mentioned sensitivity to spin - which would explain why all of a sudden all of my offensive plays hit the net.
    As for pictures, I don't have the boxes of the rubber as the blade was assembled at the store. They seem to only exist in Tibhar catalogue (only the code is mentioned, 74-041, no further info) and on the list from Revspin (but no reviews).

    edit: how can I search/find coaches in my area? We have one at the club but there's a language barrier as I'm not German.

    Last edited by Hephys; 11-29-2021 at 01:25 PM.

  12. ejprinz is offline
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    #12
    Of course you can combine any blade with any rubber, but some combinations don't make sense. I can use the Nittaku FastArc G-1 and the Yinhe Moon Medium Sponge interchangeably at my level, the sponge is approx. the same hardness. The Yinhe Moon Soft Sponge is softer than the medium sponge so I use it for the backhand. The Moon Soft is better for top spin compared to the Moon Speed Soft.

    So the usual recommendation is for the first 2 years to use a 5-ply ALL or OFF- blade and get some decent rubbers. However, since you already have the the 5-ply racket now, search on YouTube for "yangyang tt playlist basic" and watch the videos on how to hold the racket, drive, and top spin. Then record yourself and compare. Iterate. Once your topspin looks like YangYang's, the ball will get to the other side even with the ALL blade.

    You can also post the video here and we'll comment :-)
    I agree with the other person that if you have a good topspin technique you can spin with any racket if the rubbers support it. I would follow Coach Li's recommendation and go with max. thickness, it's easier to play topspin this way with today's balls.

    Also I disagree with the statement that premade rackets are not suitable for topspin. I bought the "palio expert 3.0 table tennis bat" on Amazon for my wife and it plays nicely , including top spin. It's also on the slow side compared to my typical OFF rackets but I could manage with it if I had to.
    Last edited by ejprinz; 11-30-2021 at 04:29 AM.
    Yinhe Pro Feeling, Nittaku FastArc G-1 (FH), Yinhe Moon Soft (BH)

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