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  1. yoass is offline
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    #21
    I’d still very much like to use the same rubber on both wings.

    So why can’t I, say, play with Hurricane 3 National (Blue Sponge) on both BH and FH? Yes, that’s probably a silly thing to do at any level let alone mine, but “silly to do” is not really a valid reason to outlaw it, is it?

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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    I’d still very much like to use the same rubber on both wings.

    So why can’t I, say, play with Hurricane 3 National (Blue Sponge) on both BH and FH? Yes, that’s probably a silly thing to do at any level let alone mine, but “silly to do” is not really a valid reason to outlaw it, is it?

    Well the reason there are no red blue sponge H3s is that the top sheet of the red H3 is translucent, and the blue will make it too dark for the regulation standard.

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  3. yoass is offline
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    #23
    That’s evading the question. Let me rephrase.

    How is it *reasonable* to forbid the use of *the same* rubber on both wings?

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    That’s evading the question. Let me rephrase.

    How is it *reasonable* to forbid the use of *the same* rubber on both wings?
    You mean as in "if the rubber is the same, there is no disadvantage to the opponent if the colour is also the same?"
    You could go even further, if I play with R53 on one side and R48 on the other, what would be the problem if they were both red.

    So far, so good.

    But actually, the problem only ever arised because of anti-spin and pips, rubbers that are so different that the opponent should be able to see which side is used.

    And practically, if same colour use for "same" rubber would be allowed some people would use a new rubber and one very old (with anti-spin like properties), claiming they´re the same.
    So, to prevent that or at least make it controllable, I find it reasonable that even if you use the same rubber, it has to be in different colours.

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    #25
    I’m not convinced. I’ve met players like that, using rubbers so deteriorated that they might as well have used a low-friction anti.

    The funny thing is, that argument applies to a single side already. Some of these players used stuff so old that it was effectively anti in some hit spots, and still grippy on others. And they knew their bat, knew exactly where to touch the ball.

    So “one of the rubbers may be in bad shape”, to me, is a red herring. Any single rubber may already be enough to create the disparity of behaviours. And as far as I know, this is taken care of in the ITTF rulebook, even though we don’t usually care much about it in the lower play levels. The material has to be in good condition (paraphrasing here).

    So no, that’s no reason to disallow “the same” on both sides. I’d even go so far as to consider any restriction for the same class of rubbers baseless. Why not black T05 with black T05fx?
    Last edited by yoass; 12-05-2021 at 09:57 AM.

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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    I’ve met players like that, using rubbers so deteriorated that they might as well have used a low-friction anti.

    The funny thing is, that argument appllies to a single side already.
    You are completely right. Using such rubber of course is not allowed. Since on most levels this will not be checked, at least you can see it and the damage is smaller.

    You mentioned t05 and t05 fx, I said R53 and R48, and the question would be valid for those and many others.

    But like I said, the problem only ever came from pips and anti-spin players.

    But how to say it in the rules? Using inverted rubbers in the same colour is ok, unless one of them is an anti-spin, and pips always have to be of a different colour? You could do that.

    Even a bouncy tensor and a dead Chinese rubber could cause some confusion on the other side, and I am sure the industry would come up with special rubbers for the "specialists", so they could claim it´s not an anti while it plays like one.

    Anything you´d try, players and the industry would find a way around it. So basically the rule seems ok, even if it does not make sense for your example.




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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Airoc
    But how to say it in the rules? Using inverted rubbers in the same colour is ok, unless one of them is an anti-spin, and pips always have to be of a different colour? You could do that.

    Well, the rulebook already defines classes of rubbers, based on which 0x sponge pips-out rubbers are specifically allowed as an exception to the rule requiring rubbers to have a sponge, in general.

    So it's relatively easy to define a few classes, e.g.


    1. Inverted rubber
      1. Regular (frictive inverted)
      2. Anti (non-frictive inverted) - with some defined cutover friction value
    2. Pips-out rubber
      1. Short pips
      2. Medium pips
      3. Long pips
        1. Sponged
        2. 0X, without sponge

    That makes 7 classes of rubbers. The simple rule would then be: colors must be distinctive when using two rubbers from different classes.

    There will always be edge cases, of course. Still, one needs to ask: is allowing mix of a relatively high friction (for an anti) anti with a more regular anti more detrimental than disallowing the (in principle large) use of the same rubber on FH and BH entirely? My example of H3Nat/BS is one such example. More realistically, there's also Friendship 729 Super FX. Suitable for beginners, but in some sponges available only in black. Is it reasonable to impede these beginners' development by making them use either another rubber entirely, or by relegating them to something else on one side? Many coaches (and I'm one of these) actually think it pays off to treat FH and BH identically, pretty far into the development path, starting to differentiate only when that need materializes in a player's actual development.

    And hey, why shouldn't Bernie be allowed to use pink Quantum X Pro on both wings?
    Last edited by yoass; 12-05-2021 at 10:14 AM.

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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass

    Well, the rulebook already defines classes of rubbers, based on which 0x sponge pips-out rubbers are specifically allowed as an exception to the rule requiring rubbers to have a sponge, in general.

    So it's relatively easy to define a few classes, e.g.


    1. Inverted rubber
      1. Regular (frictive inverted)
      2. Anti (non-frictive inverted) - with some defined cutover friction value
    2. Pips-out rubber
      1. Short pips
      2. Medium pips
      3. Long pips
        1. Sponged
        2. 0X, without sponge

    That makes 7 classes of rubbers. The simple rule would then be: colors must be distinctive when using two rubbers from different classes.

    There will always be edge cases, of course. Still, one needs to ask: is allowing mix of a relatively high friction (for an anti) anti with a more regular anti more detrimental than disallowing the (in principle large) use of the same rubber on FH and BH entirely? My example of H3Nat/BS is one such example. More realistically, there's also Friendship 729 Super FX. Suitable for beginners, but in some sponges available only in black. Is it reasonable to impede these beginners' development by making them use either another rubber entirely, or by relegating them to something else on one side? Many coaches (and I'm one of these) actually think it pays off to treat FH and BH identically, pretty far into the development path, starting to differentiate only when that need materializes in a player's actual development.

    And hey, why shouldn't Bernie be allowed to use pink Quantum X Pro on both wings?

    My coach has a way around it. When you train you can use whatever color you want( Nat H3 BS on both sides, etc.), and when you actually play you must follow the rules. No progression impaired, no rules broken.

    Modestly, Leo

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    #29
    Personally, I really like the idea of more colours being available. It quite literally brightens up the sport and will no doubt go down well with younger players (the future of the sport). What I don't understand, however, is why the ITTF still require one of the rubbers to be black. I understand the need for having different coloured rubbers on each side of the blade, but why can't you have one side blue and one side green, for example? All of the now legal colours are distinct enough from each other to mean that you could choose any two different colours and still be abiding by the logic behind the two colour rule...so why must one side still be black?
    Last edited by Stuart Marquis; 12-05-2021 at 07:22 PM.

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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Marquis
    Personally, I really like the idea of more colours being available. It quite literally brightens up the sport and will no doubt go down well with younger players (the future of the sport). What I don't understand, however, is why the ITTF still require one of the rubbers to be black. I understand the need for having different coloured rubbers on each side of the blade, but why can't you have one side blue and one side green, for example? All of the now legal colours are distinct enough from each other to mean that you could choose any two different colours and still be abiding by the logic behind the two colour rule...so why must one side still be black?

    To a colorblind person these colors may look exactly the same. Also if I used pink and red it would be hard to tell apart under bright lights. Black is a high contrast color against all the bright colors.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Marquis
    Personally, I really like the idea of more colours being available. It quite literally brightens up the sport and will no doubt go down well with younger players (the future of the sport). What I don't understand, however, is why the ITTF still require one of the rubbers to be black. I understand the need for having different coloured rubbers on each side of the blade, but why can't you have one side blue and one side green, for example? All of the now legal colours are distinct enough from each other to mean that you could choose any two different colours and still be abiding by the logic behind the two colour rule...so why must one side still be black?

    It would be much more work that way for Ittf because it would need to define viable combinations that look different enough.If you just have black you just need to regulate colors that are different enough from black.But if one side is not black then you need to define what goes, for example pink doesn't go with orange but it does with green. That would be a lot of different combinations that need to be defined.​​​


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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong

    To a colorblind person these colors may look exactly the same. Also if I used pink and red it would be hard to tell apart under bright lights. Black is a high contrast color against all the bright colors.

    But if you're colour blind then surely red and black could also look the same? I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that colour-blindness is the issue that ITTF are trying to cater for. But I do agree that pink and red are perhaps a bit too similar depending upon lighting conditions.


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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Marquis

    But if you're colour blind then surely red and black could also look the same? I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that colour-blindness is the issue that ITTF are trying to cater for. But I do agree that pink and red are perhaps a bit too similar depending upon lighting conditions.

    My red green colorblind friend says he can’t tell the difference between red and green at all, that means if I played with a red side and a green side( both currently allowed), he would have no idea which side I'm using.
    As far as I know there are no color blinds that disallow someone to tell apart black and another light color. Im not sure and if anyone is a doctor they are welcome to pitch in.

    Modestly, Leo

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong

    My red green colorblind friend says he can’t tell the difference between red and green at all, that means if I played with a red side and a green side( both currently allowed), he would have no idea which side I'm using.
    As far as I know there are no color blinds that disallow someone to tell apart black and another light color. Im not sure and if anyone is a doctor they are welcome to pitch in.

    I think colorblind people have it a bit hard no matter what the colors are, these changes probably will make their life more difficult.
    But isn't black a mandatory color on one side and the other side is optional from any approved color? So green + red would be illegal.

    I've had the pleasure of playing against a player who used black anti + a blue normal rubber. It wasn't that distracting as I imagined it.
    Players can see trajectory and pay attention to sound as well so color is not the only way to tell what's going on.


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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong

    My red green colorblind friend says he can’t tell the difference between red and green at all, that means if I played with a red side and a green side( both currently allowed), he would have no idea which side I'm using.
    As far as I know there are no color blinds that disallow someone to tell apart black and another light color. Im not sure and if anyone is a doctor they are welcome to pitch in.

    The rules state that one side must be black, and then the other side can be any of the other approved colours (rather than just red as per the old rule)...so at the moment it would be illegal to play one side red and one side green. Can anyone actually confirm whether the colour-blindness issue is the reason behind why the ITTF still require one side to be black?

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    #36
    Sorry for the confusion. I was responding to the post about why black had to be mandatory, and made a post disagreeing. I meant that red and green are induvidually legal colors, but put together may cause problems for colorblind people. IMO that’s why black is mandatory.
    Modestly, Leo

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