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  1. zterm is offline
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    #41
    Tibhar SPW is also a good 7-ply all wood blade, but almost double the price of PG7 (last I checked on Indonesia market price).
    If by SPW you mean Stratus Power Wood, the last time I looked at mine it looked like a 5-ply blade. :-)

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  2. MK73 is offline
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    #42
    My son has just upgraded to G5 on both sides and an OFF all wood blade - We’ve trained 3 times this week and he’s playing some much better table tennis now.

    But he’s only able to use the rubbers because he’s developed the proper strokes using the slower, tacky rubbers from before.
    This is very interesting since I don't even know how that works. If Chinese rubbers require a specific kind of forehand stroke (a longer one) how can they prepare a beginner for using Euro style rubbers which require a different one (namely a shorter one, which I like to call the "chicken wing")? I 'd like to discuss this more, but I think it would be too off topic for this thread.

  3. Der_Echte is offline
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    #43

    I’m genuinely curious as to which of my views you feel are outdated and wrong?

    Not too far off the mark to ask for clear articulation.

    Every advantage comes with a disadvantage...

    Yes, the arguement about mostly being trade-offs. I would agree. Some rubbers can do a number of things well, even some outstanding, but from there improving one aspect, then another is worse, by maybe a little or a lot.

    I would be inclined to cause trouble on the forum by stating my opinion of H3 that it is NOT a suitable rubbers for the majority of players.

    I see two major strengths of the rubber over modern dynamic rubbers. Don't anyone try the serve spin arguement, I get massive spin with non-tacky rubbers. maybe if ones technique is shyt can one get better spin with a tacky rubber.

    1 - Slow rebound on soft and medium power shotss combined with the tackiness makes it a very controllable rubber on softer shots vs incoming topsin to give contol over that ball. Difficult to use modern dynamic rubbers this way unless you have very good control of grip at impact. Soft stroke countering players who look to control the ball, not make a mistake, and place the ball can use H3 in this way easier over modern dynamic rubber.

    2 - Powerful swing and firm grip at impact. Here, I mean that swing has to be real fast bat speed. With H3, that bat speed, tackiness, and tightening of grip at impact overpower just about any spin and make grat spin and rebound. Majority of players do not have this bat speed or impact and will not perform as well if they had modern dynamic rubbers with teh appropriate sponge softness or firmness for their kind of stroke and impact.

    I have seen many newer players try to use H3 and end up injuring their shoulder trying to play like Ma Long. I have also seen many players who were/are H3 users, who had the stroke, bat speed, and impact in the cell ball era, who now with plastic ball must hit with another 10% of power to make the ball do ALMOST what it did before... now these players get shoulder injury going for too much when their stroke and technique were already maxed out. This class of player is in the top 5-10 percent of players, not a newb class at all.

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  4. Der_Echte is offline
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    #44
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73
    This is very interesting since I don't even know how that works. If Chinese rubbers require a specific kind of forehand stroke (a longer one) how can they prepare a beginner for using Euro style rubbers which require a different one (namely a shorter one, which I like to call the "chicken wing")? I 'd like to discuss this more, but I think it would be too off topic for this thread.

    There are several advantages I immediately see using slower, tacky rubbers with a developing player. The goal isn't to turn that player's attacking strokes into a monster, but to learn active solid habits. How?

    1 - Rubber is tacky and reactive to spin on passive shots. This forces player to learn touch.

    2 - With even a soft stroke and light grip pressure, one can control in incoming ball's spin and speed... and create a little spin and control of placement. This is a useful skill to have at any level and transfers well.

    3 - H3 is relative soft sponge and not fast rebounding on anything except monster impact... so to get even half-azz pace, the player must learn to hit through the ball. This forces the player to learn how to make more depth of impact... that is a good habit to get to use with any rubber.

    I can say when i switched to a 51 degree sponged rubber on FH, it caused me to learn deeper impact. 6 months of that rubber and when I pickup a bat with 47 degree MX-K, now I make that rubber a monster more than it was last year. It almost sounds illegal now - the impact and depth is better.

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  5. MK73 is offline
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    #45
    I have seen many newer players try to use H3 and end up injuring their shoulder trying to play like Ma Long. I have also seen many players who were/are H3 users, who had the stroke, bat speed, and impact in the cell ball era, who now with plastic ball must hit with another 10% of power to make the ball do ALMOST what it did before... now these players get shoulder injury going for too much when their stroke and technique were already maxed out. This class of player is in the top 5-10 percent of players, not a newb class at all.
    So you say that the risk is higher for every H3 user to end up with a shoulder injury? Come on...naaahh

    EDIT: If that is the case than the ITTF should ban H3 because they are always very concerned about the health of all TT players! Haha..


    EDIT 2: But then they should also ban D09C, Victas Triple Double Extra, Xiom Tau 2, Donic BlueGrip and all Friendship, Yinhe and Kokutaku rubbers.
    Last edited by MK73; 12-30-2021 at 07:43 PM.

  6. vvk1 is offline
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    #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte

    There are several advantages I immediately see using slower, tacky rubbers with a developing player. ...

    3 - H3 is relative soft sponge ...
    ...

    wat?

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    #47

    I see two major strengths of the rubber over modern dynamic rubbers. Don't anyone try the serve spin arguement, I get massive spin with non-tacky rubbers. maybe if ones technique is shyt can one get better spin with a tacky rubber.

    2 - Powerful swing and firm grip at impact. Here, I mean that swing has to be real fast bat speed. With H3, that bat speed, tackiness, and tightening of grip at impact overpower just about any spin and make grat spin and rebound. Majority of players do not have this bat speed or impact and will not perform as well if they had modern dynamic rubbers with teh appropriate sponge softness or firmness for their kind of stroke and impact.
    1. Disagree. Its a major advantage of H3 and it can't be argued away with a "shyte technique" argument. Of course you can also have very spinny and effective serves with Euro rubbers, but with H3 even more. It helps a lot and wins a lot of points.

    2. My experience is that the tackiness helps a lot even if open up slow on slow backspin pushes or serves, your timing and your position has be the right, that's true. Also counter topspins are easier to perform because you don't have to deal with the bounciness of Euro rubbers. Same goes for fast loop kills. Smashing is a different thing, H3 is not good at it.

  8. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #48
    This is how I see the Hard Tacky Chinese vs Euro/Japanese Grippy/Non-Tacky Catapult issue.

    Both have advantages and disadvantages. It is hard to switch from one to the other if you have not done it before. I am not sure if it is harder to switch from Euro to Tacky or from Tacky to Euro as a result of that first sentence in this paragraph.

    A young player who has only used Tacky or Euro will have less trouble switching from one to the other. If you start from the beginning with either, you will adjust to the rubber you use.

    Where it would be harder and less advisable to try and switch from Euro/Japanese rubbers to Tacky Chinese rubbers would be FOR AN ADULT LEARNER. However, if you have an adult learning who is willing to deal with what ever it takes to get used to a big switch in equipment like that, then, they will slog through the first few months and then be fine.

    I don't think it is an issue of different kinds of strokes so much as it is an issue of impact power on bigger shots for Tacky rubbers and touch and feel for touch shots with Catapult sponge rubbers. If you get used to how much force on impact you need to use for a tacky rubber, then that just gets calibrated into your muscle memory. But you won't be doing so many of those lazy old man, stick the racket out and let the sponge do the work, shots that you can do when out of position with a rubber that has the Catapult effect. Conversely, someone going from Tacky to Catapult rubbers will have to adjust to just how soft your hands have to be to keep the ball low and short with rubbers that have as much bounce as some of the Euro/Japanese rubbers have.

    Either obstacle can be adjusted to. Since I have played with both and don't have trouble going back and forth from H3 to any of the Euro rubbers I use these days, I think it is just an issue of adjustment. In the comment that started the Catapult vs Tacky discussion, I believe NDH was making a comment directed to Amit that was based on NDH's assessment of Amit's strokes from those videos of him using H3. Based on that video, I do think it is possible that Amit switching to one of the rubbers he is thinking about (Aurus Prime, Rakza 7) may give Amit more confidence in his FH stroke because it is clear his struggling for consistency and is wasting a decent amount of effort in his stroke.

    So, even if the generalization may not have been to everyone's liking, I think NDH's comment was pretty useful in the context of what it looks like Amit needs.

    Information does need a context though. For another user, showing video, NDH may have said "it looks like H3 is working great for you."

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  9. NDH is offline
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    #49

    Carl, can you just follow me around at home and do these sort of explainers to my wife when I inevitably say something that annoys the hell out of her? 😃

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  10. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #50
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    Carl, can you just follow me around at home and do these sort of explainers to my wife when I inevitably say something that annoys the hell out of her? 😃

    As long as you can do the same for me.

    I think that is the issue. Your comment was directed specifically towards what it looked like would help Amit. Part of the issue there is, with the extra effort that is not translating into impact force on contact, but causing the contact to be a little less precise than needed, it is causing his shots to be a little less consistent than he needs. A rubber where he does not need to work quite as hard may help quite quickly.

    Amit's strokes look good. The form is good. It is the subtle stuff that is happening between the topsheet and the sponge that is causing him to second guess his FH and not have as much confidence with it.

    You saw the issue and had an assessment of what would help Amit. But there is also the idea that, if Amit keeps at it with H3, he may sort out the issues that are causing the contact to not be as precise as it needs to be, he might learn how to transfer more power into the ball with more efficiency, and then H3 may also end up being a great rubber for him. But that second route may take a lot more hard work for where Amit is right now. It might be more painful for quite a while. That being said, 4-5 years from now, it also might cause him to top out at a higher level because of how the rubber won't do the work for him so his technique will have to improve more if he keeps using H3.

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  11. MK73 is offline
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    #51
    That being said, 4-5 years from now, it also might cause him to top out at a higher level because of how the rubber won't do the work for him so his technique will have to improve more if he keeps using H3.

    Or not. He might be ending up with a forehand much more deadly than any of his clubmates. ☺


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    #52
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73
    So you say that the risk is higher for every H3 user to end up with a shoulder injury? Come on...naaahh

    EDIT: If that is the case than the ITTF should ban H3 because they are always very concerned about the health of all TT players! Haha..


    EDIT 2: But then they should also ban D09C, Victas Triple Double Extra, Xiom Tau 2, Donic BlueGrip and all Friendship, Yinhe and Kokutaku rubbers.

    If shoulder injuries are your thing then try a sheet of Double Fish QiJi Osmose Inverse, with 41 degree sponge hardness, the sheet I tried was deader than dead thing!!! I would estimate that it was about 900 to 1200mm slower than H8-80!!!!, by this I mean that for a standard topspin stroke the ball landed about that much shorter!!!
    My 1st few strokes made it to about 600mm from the net!!
    you don’t need arms and hands for this baby, just a rocket launcher !!!
    Now I’ve got plenty of weight to put behind a stroke, but yep, use this sucka and you’re chances of visiting the Docs is gonna rise!!!

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    #53
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73
    So you say that the risk is higher for every H3 user to end up with a shoulder injury? Come on...naaahh

    EDIT: If that is the case than the ITTF should ban H3 because they are always very concerned about the health of all TT players! Haha..


    EDIT 2: But then they should also ban D09C, Victas Triple Double Extra, Xiom Tau 2, Donic BlueGrip and all Friendship, Yinhe and Kokutaku rubbers.
    Well, as someone playing after a major shoulder injury I can tell you without a doubt that Chinese-style rubbers take a toll on my shoulder in a way that Euro/Jap rubbers don't. If I practise for an hour or so with a Chinese-style rubber I know all about it later that evening and the next day. If I play with a Euro/Jap rubber, then I feel no after-effects at all.

  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #54
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73

    Or not. He might be ending up with a forehand much more deadly than any of his clubmates. ☺

    It seems you may have misunderstood what I said. I said that down the road he might top out at A HIGHER LEVEL. The implication is that H3 could force him to fix some of the inefficiencies that are causing him not to translate power into the ball on contact and that would mean that, RATHER THAN THE RUBBER DOING THE WORK, HE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE BETTER TECHNIQUE. So your: "Or not. He might be ending up with a forehand much more deadly than any of his clubmates." is a different way of saying just what I said.
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73
    So you say that the risk is higher for every H3 user to end up with a shoulder injury? Come on...naaahh
    Because you do have to translate more power into the ball, someone with poor mechanics who keeps using H3 and trying TOO HARD could be more likely to end up with a shoulder injury. Because Catapult sponge makes it so you do not have to work as hard, and medium impact shots have what most people would consider good power, someone with poor mechanics could potentially just not try as hard with Catapult sponged rubbers which could cause the bad mechanics not to create the injury as quickly.

    Someone with really good mechanics can get a HIGHER TOP END POWER with H3 while, with Catapult sponge rubbers, at a certain point, more effort stops producing more power (speed and spin on the ball).

    But still, all sports have the potential to cause injury. Good mechanics make you less likely to injure yourself. And a person can injure themself no matter what equipment they use.

    So, I would not say "for every H3 user." I would say, someone whose mechanics are good enough that the transfer of power from legs, hips, core, and arm, into the ball on contact is effective and efficient is less likely to injure themself no matter what equipment they are using and someone whose mechanics are less efficient might work harder, get less power, and then try too hard and injure themself no matter what equipment they are using. But a rubber that makes the ball go faster when your mechanics are not quite as good could make you use less effort. That could make the less efficient technique a little less likely to cause injury. But it is the technique that would create the repetitive stress that causes the injury one way or the other. And if the technique does not get cleaned up, over time, the poor mechanics are still likely to cause injury. It may just take longer to manifest with a rubber that does more of the work for you.

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  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #55
    Also, if you start out with a shoulder injury you are recovering from, there is a whole different ball of wax to discuss. And then, yeah, the rubber where you don't need to apply as much power or have as precise a transfer of power will be less likely to affect the recovering shoulder.

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    #56
    The discussion deviated completely. 😁

    Personally, here is why I opted for a hybrid rubber rather than a Chinese H3 Neo:

    1. I think I started playing with Chinese rubber too late. I would have liked to have been offered them when I started table tennis.

    2. My coach (N ° 1 in my region, who plays with the same equipment as Ma Long) noticed that this was too radical for me and that my game involved less hitting the ball which did not suit the H3. Yet he was the one who advised me on the PG7 and the H3 Neo when seeing my wide forehand. 🙃

    3. I have never seen a single European pro with an H3 Neo, on the other hand I have already seen a lot of them using hybrid rubbers. We can therefore conclude that it is a question of sporting culture and method. Since I didn't have the opportunity to be trained like in Asia, why force me to copy their method exactly? I just intend to be inspired by it to enrich the European method that I was taught.

    4. I was curious 😏

    This is of course my point of view and obviously the Rakza Z is perfect for me. I have the feel, control and spin of the H3 Neo, with the punch and rejection of a Japanese rubber. I have to admit that the few weeks spent playing with Chinese equipment unlocked something in my game. It was not fruitless. 👍
    Last edited by Equaaz; 12-31-2021 at 02:15 AM.

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    #57
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    It seems you may have misunderstood what I said. I said that down the road he might top out at A HIGHER LEVEL. The implication is that H3 could force him to fix some of the inefficiencies that are causing him not to translate power into the ball on contact and that would mean that, RATHER THAN THE RUBBER DOING THE WORK, HE WOULD HAVE TO HAVE BETTER TECHNIQUE. So your: "Or not. He might be ending up with a forehand much more deadly than any of his clubmates." is a different way of saying just what I said.

    Because you do have to translate more power into the ball, someone with poor mechanics who keeps using H3 and trying TOO HARD could be more likely to end up with a shoulder injury. Because Catapult sponge makes it so you do not have to work as hard, and medium impact shots have what most people would consider good power, someone with poor mechanics could potentially just not try as hard with Catapult sponged rubbers which could cause the bad mechanics not to create the injury as quickly.

    Someone with really good mechanics can get a HIGHER TOP END POWER with H3 while, with Catapult sponge rubbers, at a certain point, more effort stops producing more power (speed and spin on the ball).

    But still, all sports have the potential to cause injury. Good mechanics make you less likely to injure yourself. And a person can injure themself no matter what equipment they use.

    So, I would not say "for every H3 user." I would say, someone whose mechanics are good enough that the transfer of power from legs, hips, core, and arm, into the ball on contact is effective and efficient is less likely to injure themself no matter what equipment they are using and someone whose mechanics are less efficient might work harder, get less power, and then try too hard and injure themself no matter what equipment they are using. But a rubber that makes the ball go faster when your mechanics are not quite as good could make you use less effort. That could make the less efficient technique a little less likely to cause injury. But it is the technique that would create the repetitive stress that causes the injury one way or the other. And if the technique does not get cleaned up, over time, the poor mechanics are still likely to cause injury. It may just take longer to manifest with a rubber that does more of the work for you.
    Thanks for clarifying my misread, Carl. Maybe age recommendations or health warnings (on the package) would be useful for certain types of rubbers? Just kidding, of course 😆

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  18. Ktandean is offline
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    #58
    Quote Originally Posted by zterm
    If by SPW you mean Stratus Power Wood, the last time I looked at mine it looked like a 5-ply blade. :-)

    Hi zterm,
    Ah yes, I remembered wrongly. It was a rather THICK 5-ply wood lol
    Nonetheless still a good and popular choice.
    Cheers!

    Spincerely yours,
    KT

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    #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Equaaz
    Hello,

    In the hope that this thread can help other players, here is an update of my situation after receiving your various tips and of course with my personal research.

    I managed to target my taste in equipment and find a solution for every aspect from the equipment reviews.
    Concerning the wood, and since my main weak point is my insecurity and my mistakes, I therefore chose a rather slow blade, good for progression and flexible: Yasaka Sweden Extra. It is by far the best blade for less than 50 € that I have had in my hands. The Novacell OFF is inert in comparison (foam in the handle ...) and the sensations of the DHS PG7 are disgusting (I suspect a lack of manufacturing quality on mine).
    For the forehand rubber, I found a perfect alternative to the H3 Neo thanks to the Rakza Z (2mm). For the backhand I stayed at Yasaka with the Rakza 7 (2mm), a little faster than the Z, perfect for my shoulder and with good control and surprising blocks.

    This racquet immediately struck me as familiar and balanced, as if everything was going smoothly. Only downside, I would have liked the Rakza 7 to be a little softer (~ 42/45 ° ESN) because the transition with the Xiom Europe DF is a bit brutal.

    Since I have finally found something that I feel confident in, I will stop looking at the material and focus on my training and competitions. Thank you for your advice. I'm sorry I didn't get them earlier, it would take a thread that brings together all the great hardware tips for beginner / intermediate players. (I tried to create it on a French-speaking forum but the users did not see the point ...)

    Really good to hear that you found a suiting setup for you. Regarding a little softer Rakza 7, check out the Rakza 7 Soft or one of the Andro Hexer Grip/PowerGrip series. They are really nice, spinny and controlled rubbers in various sponge hardnesses and thicknesses. A budget version of these could be 729 Focus III Snipe 42/44 deg. Really good allround rubber, but not that spinny as the previous mentioned rubbers.

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    #60
    Quote Originally Posted by mocker88

    Really good to hear that you found a suiting setup for you. Regarding a little softer Rakza 7, check out the Rakza 7 Soft or one of the Andro Hexer Grip/PowerGrip series. They are really nice, spinny and controlled rubbers in various sponge hardnesses and thicknesses. A budget version of these could be 729 Focus III Snipe 42/44 deg. Really good allround rubber, but not that spinny as the previous mentioned rubbers.

    I found the Xiom Vega Europe (42.5 ° ESN) too soft so I didn't dare to choose the Rakza 7 Soft (40 ° ESN). But maybe that's because the Vega Europe topsheet is soft too. And then it's just a matter of adaptation, at worst there are ways to soften a rubber. 🤭

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