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NDH · Dec 23, 2021

Lastly, I think that advice coming from a good player is nice, but advice coming from someone knowledgeable about the specific topic is better. Say you ask about something antispin, or tacky-rubbers… well, even some good players might have a very biased opinion on the subject, while a "non-verified" user but who has played with anti a lot, might have great (experience-based) input.

[e.g., I play with short-pips on the backhand and my coach, even if he now plays with two BS used to play with SP for a long time… which is why I would value his SP-related advice more than advice from a stronger player who has never played with SPs]

Yeah, very much agree with that point (I edited my last post to try and say the same thing before you posted!)

I didn't expect to get such strong reactions to be honest - Contrary to what certain people may think, it was merely a suggestion, and not a plot to overthrow TTD as a whole

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 23, 2021

PingBirdPong said:
I understand. I’ll try to post a video of myself playing on YT and link it here ASAP. I’ll ask for some advice at the same time. Also, what is the link for the old website? Or is it the same URL, just remade?
PS: if the tag thing comes back, can I get a tag that says “ verified cheater”, “banned by ITTF” or “ can’t do backhand flick” ?

Read your status.

NDH · Dec 23, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
On the old TTDaily site, before this "upgrade", there were members who had labels like: "equipment expert", "verified coach", "verified youtuber" that made it so you knew that there were certain people who knew what they were talking about in certain areas.

I remember that - It was useful to see little tag lines like that (and really, that's all I was thinking about!)

On a side note, if anyone from TTD ever visits the UK shores and wants a knock, let me know and we can definitely arrange something!

We should have a global TTD meet up one day.......

PingBirdPong · Dec 23, 2021

NDH said:
I remember that - It was useful to see little tag lines like that (and really, that's all I was thinking about!)

On a side note, if anyone from TTD ever visits the UK shores and wants a knock, let me know and we can definitely arrange something!

We should have a global TTD meet up one day.......

I’ll bring my friends if that ever happens!

PingBirdPong · Dec 23, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
Read your status.

I see what you did there. I think I’ll keep it!

Brs · Dec 23, 2021

UpSideDownCarl said:
I am often not so happy that, when I finally convince someone to post video footage of themself on the site, there end up being a ton of comments, often from people who probably are not any better than the person in the video about things that would simply make the person self conscious and REGRET having posted video footage.

But, it would be possible to create a system where people who are newer could be made to feel "safe" when posting footage of their standard of play.

Videos of members playing matches is some of the most entertaining and best TTD content, right up there with the pro tournament threads. Anything that would make more people feel safe to post their video would be awesome. Is particularly aggressive moderation a possibility for a player video thread or sub-forum? Could un-constructive or rude posts simply be deleted, maybe even repeat offenders punished in some way?

It's inherently interesting to watch random amateurs at different levels, from different countries, playing their matches. And there are many people on here who are coaches or have had a lot of good coaching, and give broadly helpful advice. I think those posters often get turned off by being drawn into arguments with trolls, which essentially punishes them for trying to help the OP. So maybe have a no cross-posting rule? Like just respond to the OP and no debating with others or OT stuff.

idk what is the best way to do it. But if time and energy is going to be invested to adding some functionality here, I would **much** rather it go into your safe space for player video idea than into improving the equipment advice. Of course it could do both. And many people do seem to enjoy the equipment threads. I'm just stating my one vote.

latej · Dec 23, 2021

NDH said:
We should have a global TTD meet up one day.......

In Germany pls !!!

)

It seems the topic is quite active so you must have hit something sensible. I think I just see this from different angle - some of the points you even mention yourself:

- I rarely make video of myself and I simply don't want to post videos of myself to general public. And, it seems to be safe to assume, that I am not alone. But, I'd perhaps occasionaly want to create a "private" thread, where I grant access to whoever I want, and I may ask for advice and post some video. There is not so many regular posters, so it is not hard to pick...

- The like system - I often would like to react to a message, very shortly - so that whole post feels inappropriate - and in this situation I'd like to have first more emoticons, and better yet, a possibility to write a 1-liner reaction. That would make a kind of short reaction sub-thread local to the post. This is also useful when the post is a bit off-topic, but you want to react shortly anyway, or when you want to react to 1 small point in the post. This short sub-thread of 1-liners I'd find useful.

Probably, these wishes are not realistic, for the reasons Carl mentioned...

NDH · Dec 23, 2021

latej said:
In Germany pls !!! )

It seems the topic is quite active so you must have hit something sensible. I think I just see this from different angle - some of the points you even mention yourself:

- I rarely make video of myself and I simply don't want to post videos of myself to general public. And, it seems to be safe to assume, that I am not alone. But, I'd perhaps occasionaly want to create a "private" thread, where I grant access to whoever I want, and I may ask for advice and post some video. There is not so many regular posters, so it is not hard to pick...

- The like system - I often would like to react to a message, very shortly - so that whole post feels inappropriate - and in this situation I'd like to have first more emoticons, and better yet, a possibility to write a 1-liner reaction. That would make a kind of short reaction sub-thread local to the post. This is also useful when the post is a bit off-topic, but you want to react shortly anyway, or when you want to react to 1 small point in the post. This short sub-thread of 1-liners I'd find useful.

Probably, these wishes are not realistic, for the reasons Carl mentioned...

2 good points there.

I think the first was something I wasn't sure would be popular because then it does create a bit of a "2 tier" system...... But I can see the appeal of it for regular users and I'd support it if it went down that route.

I think this sort of thinking actually spawned a Discord group a few years ago? I may be wrong, but I think I was in it back when I used Discord quite a bit!

Does anyone from TTD discuss things on a different platform?

NDH · Dec 23, 2021

Brs said:
Videos of members playing matches is some of the most entertaining and best TTD content, right up there with the pro tournament threads. Anything that would make more people feel safe to post their video would be awesome. Is particularly aggressive moderation a possibility for a player video thread or sub-forum? Could un-constructive or rude posts simply be deleted, maybe even repeat offenders punished in some way?

It's inherently interesting to watch random amateurs at different levels, from different countries, playing their matches. And there are many people on here who are coaches or have had a lot of good coaching, and give broadly helpful advice. I think those posters often get turned off by being drawn into arguments with trolls, which essentially punishes them for trying to help the OP. So maybe have a no cross-posting rule? Like just respond to the OP and no debating with others or OT stuff.

idk what is the best way to do it. But if time and energy is going to be invested to adding some functionality here, I would **much** rather it go into your safe space for player video idea than into improving the equipment advice. Of course it could do both. And many people do seem to enjoy the equipment threads. I'm just stating my one vote.

Fully support all of what you said there.

If any of those comments came to fruition it would be good!

Attitude · Dec 23, 2021

I would suggest to add a rating system especially for smth like advices or change the emoticon reaction thing into the rating system.
This will most certainly be used more and on top will give a decent idea which advice is decent by the majority of ppl.

For your described use of this forum the emoticon system is not good either way. Interesting in others posts but pretty redundant in "search for advice" threads.

IB66 · Dec 23, 2021

The main thing about equipment advice, is that to a certain extent, regardless of ability, it’s a personal opinion. This is the main thing that members and those using the forum need to remember.
Until an independent scientific testing facility or similar comes along then we are going to be left with peoples opinions.

Perhaps a tag can be attached to any replies regarding equipment, that is automatically attached, that states that it is a ‘personal opinion’ or something like that.
I also like the old tags such as ‘equipment expert’ etc it would be great to see these back.

The ‘status’ tags such as ‘member’, ‘established’, ‘advanced’, ‘senior’, ‘master’ are also good, but I’m not 100% sure how these are decided and what things are taken into account?
But these should also give any user reading a post some idea of the posters ‘considered’ ability and knowledge.

I took the plunge and did post a video of myself, I can’t even remember which string I posted it on!!
I don’t know how long the footage stays active? Does it ‘disappear’ on its own? Etc??

I just felt that I had to be transparent and honest, ‘seeing is believing’ so at least those of you who have seen the footage, have an idea of my ability. (Which is by no means ‘expert’ or ‘Pro’ level)

Another thing to consider about posting footage is how old it is and is it a true reflection of your current ability and experience. For example there are players out there that have rapidly improved and could well be a few levels higher than they were when they posted some video footage. A member could be relatively inactive on the forum for a year or 2, decide to start posting again and during the 2yrs improved, a another member could find the old footage and think the poster is a lower level than they actually are!!!

Quite a tricky subject!!

Asking an OP for some footage is almost a ‘Must do’ in order to give advice, but privacy, consent, age etc etc also have to be taken into account.

IB66 · Dec 23, 2021

There is a ‘feedback’ section when you open up a person’s profile, I think this is related to ‘traders’ only?
could ‘feedback’ be an option?
A rating system for advice given could be viable, more emoticons?
An issue could be abuse of feedback and rating systems.

zxc · Dec 23, 2021

I think current country ranking would be the best. I like how it's done on lichess - you want that GM title then you prove it. Everything else: videos, claims of playing in such and such league are pointless imo.

NDH · Dec 23, 2021

zxc said:
I think current country ranking would be the best. I like how it's done on lichess - you want that GM title then you prove it. Everything else: videos, claims of playing in such and such league are pointless imo.

The problem with that is each country has a different ranking.

Many countries either have a bad ranking system (UK) or non at all!

Being the best player in Papua New Guinea might not actually mean you are on the same level as the best player in the US (for example).

Chess is different, as you can get a global rating as everyone is playing the same game with the same ranking system.

But it would be good if there was a universal rating system!

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 23, 2021

Brs said:
So it's like a three level menu:
All+ blade and intro rubbers for beginners,
Off - blade with medium rubbers for intermediate,
Off blade and high-end rubbers for advanced. And that's it.

I think this is a good point. I think good equipment advice is something that gets people into the right category and I do think that those three categories may be most or all of what is needed.

I just think there are a few interesting things that happen when sorting out which category a person belongs in. Often people who are categorizing their own skills but have not played at the club and tournament level just don't have any idea of how to estimate their level. I have seen people way underestimate their skill level and the opposite. It has happened in so many ways that these days I am not so surprised at all the unique play styles I have seen in video from people wanting equipment advice.

But yeah, in general, getting someone to be looking in the right category of equipment is the main thing so, I think the point above that Brs is making is an important one.

Brs said:
Videos of members playing matches is some of the most entertaining and best TTD content, right up there with the pro tournament threads. Anything that would make more people feel safe to post their video would be awesome. Is particularly aggressive moderation a possibility for a player video thread or sub-forum? Could un-constructive or rude posts simply be deleted, maybe even repeat offenders punished in some way?

It's inherently interesting to watch random amateurs at different levels, from different countries, playing their matches. And there are many people on here who are coaches or have had a lot of good coaching, and give broadly helpful advice. I think those posters often get turned off by being drawn into arguments with trolls, which essentially punishes them for trying to help the OP. So maybe have a no cross-posting rule? Like just respond to the OP and no debating with others or OT stuff.

idk what is the best way to do it. But if time and energy is going to be invested to adding some functionality here, I would **much** rather it go into your safe space for player video idea than into improving the equipment advice. Of course it could do both. And many people do seem to enjoy the equipment threads. I'm just stating my one vote.

I agree with this completely. Theoretically, there is no reason I could not open a thread that has specific rules and delete posts that I feel are contrary to intention of commentary in the thread.

Later, when I have a chance, I may try to make a thread where, people can post footage, and I will chose members from TTDaily who can comment on the footage to help the person's game and if people not on that list comment, I can delete those comments if they seem out of line. We will see if we can make that idea work. And if it does not, I can always lock the thread.

UpSideDownCarl · Dec 23, 2021

I just want to see if I can sum something up. The purpose of people posting footage is not actually for us to see their level and JUDGE if it is worth taking their advice. A HUGE PART OF WHY it would be worth having more TTD members post footage of themselves is, IF YOU have posted footage of yourself, it is much more likely you will be more careful about how you comment on footage posted by other people. A lot of the people who make the most silly comments about footage posted by someone else are people who won't post footage because they don't want others to see them play.

Also, if you see footage of someone and can tell they have a decent facility with the basics, they can spin the ball, they can handle some incoming spin, you get an idea of that they may be able to see what is happening when they see footage of someone else. Whereas, someone who cannot loop, hits the ball flat, generates absolutely NO SPIN and tries to tell others how to spin the ball or other technical issues (there are definitely some on the forum in that category who like to talk about certain subjects in TT like equations for measuring things that may be unmeasurable) then at least someone will know they are getting information on how to spin from someone who does not seem to know how to do the skill they are discussing.

And in TT, when someone does not realize that they do not know how to do something that they don't know how to do, like generating good spin, then that person may not be able to see when someone else is spinning the ball or not. So, I think the idea of posting footage as part of the process of commenting on footage other people post can be helpful in this way as well. The first thing it does is it causes the person who posts the footage to think more carefully before CRITICIZING footage of play level from someone else. The second thing it does it is lets people see that the person is competent at the basics.

BUT THIS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A HIERACHY THING. Someone who is competent at the basics will sometimes be good at making useful comments that are helpful to others. And sometimes that person won't be competent at commenting. But at least we will be able to see that the person may have some idea what they are talking about or that they just don't have a clue.

Right now I am remembering ArchoSaurus who, every time he heard NextLevel say a fancy term he started talking about it without having a clue what it actually meant. So we heard him talking about "Whip Mechanics", "Hook Loops", Corkscrew Loops", "Fade Loops", and a whole host of other terms. But when we saw footage of him playing finally, it was clear that he really was just a talker but could not play at all. And he had been parading around for months trying to pretend he wasn't clueless.

The purpose of posting footage would be so people are more careful and thoughtful when they comment and so that we can assess whether we are talking to someone who actually does know what they are talking about or if they are clueless and pretending. And the reason it is worth knowing if someone is clueless and pretending is, often, when people take seriously the comments of someone who really is clueless, and try to implement those recommendations, the person can get hurt, their game may get worse or they may spend way too much on equipment that WAS REALLY NOT at all suitable for them.

NDH · Dec 23, 2021

I'm glad to see Carl has taken the time to put into words what I probably should have done earlier! 😂

For anyone who has managed to misinterpret this as some sort of "elitist" thing - It's really not.

Personally, I couldn't care if you are good, bad or average. But it's nice to get more context when reading posts from others.

Someone could be a very average player, but have a wide knowledge of the various manufacturers and equipment - Certainly far more than my very limited knowledge in that space.

That same person might not be the best to advise on how to maximise a top spin loop, but it doesn't mean their contribution to TTD is any less.

It was a thread designed to generate discussion about how we get more people to submit videos, which I think we can all agree, will seriously improve the overall experience for the new user looking for help, but also the overall experience for TTD.

But yeah, any improvement where the majority agrees is a good thing in my book!

Merry Christmas everyone!

PingBirdPong · Dec 24, 2021

zxc said:
I think current country ranking would be the best. I like how it's done on lichess - you want that GM title then you prove it. Everything else: videos, claims of playing in such and such league are pointless imo.

Bruh you know how hard it is to even get a ranking in Beijing? Or any place in China for that matter.
I think we don’t need national rankings to post on a forum. And giving advice probably doesn’t require national rankings.

brokenball · Dec 24, 2021

I think that most of the comments about videos of people playing are pretty consistent and good. It is best to watch matches or some sort of competition where people are trying to win points and the opponent can do the unexpected.

As far as equipment evaluations, all I can say is that people are not calibrated machines. I see too many different opinions on things like throw angle and dwell time. These are topics I know these people no little about. Also anybody that mentions that equipment has control should be ignored. That includes the rating you get from the TT manufacturers.

To many fall for the latest fad.

Der_Echte · Dec 25, 2021

NDH said:
I remember that - It was useful to see little tag lines like that (and really, that's all I was thinking about!)On a side note, if anyone from TTD ever visits the UK shores and wants a knock, let me know and we can definitely arrange something!We should have a global TTD meet up one day.......

NHD, whether big or small, or water or juice drinker, I try to travel and play them all. Unfortunately, I have neve stepped foot near UK, but one day, it may happen. When it does, you and whole host of jokers will be ready there for me.

Forums have better enabled this sort of thing, and also add to recording/amplifying the memories. Phones and cameras cost money, so we aim to get some good use from them.

Even one half a generation ago, one would need personal network rivaling the KGB to get around 1/10 the way we can using forums.

EDIT: If it hasn't been clear with my posting over the years, the kind of mission NDH is championing... I have tried to do whenever I am away from my city. I call it Trouble Making and meeting Trouble makers... and my brand of trouble is not the dictionary connotation of the word. I try my best to involve people in elements they are both familiar and also uncomfortable/enjoyable/unexpected. Doing what NHD suggesting is HIGHLY satisfying and ought to be a high point for about anyone doing that.

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