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  1. NDH is offline
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    #1

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    Hey everyone,

    I've been around these forums for many years now (long before I was registered), and the same challenges come up time and time again around giving advice.

    Carl made a very good point yesterday about not giving advice to someone until you've seen them play, but unfortunately, with a tiny percentage of people looking for help actually posting any photos/videos, those threads would remain empty and unwelcoming.

    Whilst I have always championed people posting videos of themselves before asking for help, I appreciate it's always going to be a challenge.

    So, why do we think this is? Is it the "instagram effect", where the beginners looking for help think that everyone else is semi pro (because, they really aren't!)

    The second point would be, can we get some sort of verification system in place for people where we know their level, and we know the advice is coming from a place of ability?

    There are tons of people offering advice all over the place, but if that advice is coming from a relative beginner who is just trying to justify their own equipment..... It's not really the same.

    I can probably count on one hand how many people I've seen play on this forum.

    I personally think it would make for a better experience all around, where people know the advice they are getting is coming from a "verified" player, and not just an internet expert.

    Thoughts?

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  2. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #2
    I agree. At one point I think Dan was trying to implement things like this. But I think he is too busy these days to even get the bugs on the site fixed. But it would be good if more of the people who do play at a decent level and understand equipment were labeled in a way were newer members could trust that those people's advice should be valued over other members.

    And of course we agree that more people should post video.

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  3. Lula is offline
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    #3
    I think this is difficult. Feel like technique is very subjective between coaches and not everything suit h the same player. I also think that the level of the player so not necessarily reflect their knowledge or ability to coach someone. Some coaches are probably very good but not so good at playing.

    I do think it is good if the OP post a video of themselves playing and the ones that make the comments perhaps can try to motivate the answer.

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    #4
    You may be taking the equipment advice function of TTD a tiny bit too seriously.

  5. NDH is offline
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs
    You may be taking the equipment advice function of TTD a tiny bit too seriously.

    Anyone who takes time out of their day to ask questions on a forum like this is taking it seriously, so why should the response be any different?

    I suspect the people who would be against this are those who have been giving advice with little ability to back it up.

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  6. yoass is offline
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    #6
    Footage is key. Yet spotting and pointing out issues that could be improved upon is, though useful by itself, not enough.

    For example, when younger I was told many times to shorten my FH strokes, in order to improve my reset. True, but it didn’t help me to find a way to actually acomplish that change.

    My coach, however, made me do exercises that offered an adaptation path and gave me immediate feedback, corrections - but also inforcement of the good things happening.

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  7. NDH is offline
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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    I think this is difficult. Feel like technique is very subjective between coaches and not everything suit h the same player. I also think that the level of the player so not necessarily reflect their knowledge or ability to coach someone. Some coaches are probably very good but not so good at playing.

    I do think it is good if the OP post a video of themselves playing and the ones that make the comments perhaps can try to motivate the answer.

    I agree, but that's usually at quite a high level (where the coach isn't as good as the player).

    At TTD level, I imagine most people who can offer good advice, have the fundamentals of the game down very well.

    If you read someones advice, and then see them play..... You can then make up your own mind.

    I appreciate players like yourself are not here to seek advice from others, but I just think it would give a nice touch to TTD.

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  8. NDH is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by yoass
    Footage is key. Yet spotting and pointing out issues that could be improved upon is, though useful by itself, not enough.

    For example, when younger I was told many times to shorten my FH strokes, in order to improve my reset. True, but it didn’t help me to find a way to actually acomplish that change.

    My coach, however, made me do exercises that offered an adaptation path and gave me immediate feedback, corrections - but also inforcement of the good things happening.

    Oh, I 100% agree with you here.

    It'll never be perfect, but my understanding is there are a huge number of people who don't have access to coaches, and this forum may be the best thing out there.

    So it's really just a way to improve on what is currently a bad system, to make it a little better and more structured if possible.

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  9. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #9
    I think this is a great idea. It would be great to have a way to know who to trust. Can Carl make a system like this or only Dan can modify the website?
    A few problems come to mind:
    1. How do we get verified? If it’s by hand review of video, this would lead to privacy issues, overly excessive labor, ingenuity of videos( if I uploaded my provincial team friend playing for example) , and problem for those who cannot access a camera. If verification is by certificate or rating, then the problem of ingenuity and international compatibility comes to mind. For example I have no rating nor official level, but I have done lots of research on equipment characteristics and have high level resources, how do I give advice?
    2. It may discourage some people who are not confident in their level to comment.
    I think everyone can give advice and opinions, and it’s mainly the job of the receiver to decide which one they believe. I think we can implement a system where people rate replies, simply by liking, and a person with lots of likes gets a high “ trust” rating, and if they get downvoted too many times, their comment will be labeled as “ untrustworthy” or “inaccurate” , and people who get too many labels will get a low “ trust”. Combine this with the verification system, so there are two kinds of people you can trust.

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  10. NDH is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    I think this is a great idea. It would be great to have a way to know who to trust. Can Carl make a system like this or only Dan can modify the website?
    A few problems come to mind:
    1. How do we get verified? If it’s by hand review of video, this would lead to privacy issues, overly excessive labor, ingenuity of videos( if I uploaded my provincial team friend playing for example) , and problem for those who cannot access a camera. If verification is by certificate or rating, then the problem of ingenuity and international compatibility comes to mind. For example I have no rating nor official level, but I have done lots of research on equipment characteristics and have high level resources, how do I give advice?
    2. It may discourage some people who are not confident in their level to comment.
    I think everyone can give advice and opinions, and it’s mainly the job of the receiver to decide which one they believe. I think we can implement a system where people rate replies, simply by liking, and a person with lots of likes gets a high “ trust” rating, and if they get downvoted too many times, their comment will be labeled as “ untrustworthy” or “inaccurate” , and people who get too many labels will get a low “ trust”. Combine this with the verification system, so there are two kinds of people you can trust.

    All good points and I should probably add..... My thoughts behind this is to encourage MORE people to post useful content.

    If that means beginners stop advising people to buy the Viscaria with Tenergy (because that's what they use), then that's a good thing in my book!

    Anyway, your points....

    How to get verified?

    I think video is the best thing here - This isn't supposed to be a really in-depth analysis of people's abilities. But whilst someone might know the "on paper" stats of certain equipment, it doesn't always translate to actual gameplay, and if they can't hit a standard forehand topspin, then I would want to know that information if they were giving advice.

    You can also take "rating", but that's certainly always going to come with a certain amount of inaccuracy given the varying systems different countries use.

    From a privacy point of view, if that video is sent to Dan/Carl as the owner/moderator of the forum, I don't know - I don't see why most people can't simply upload a video and share it with others here? Could you explain why that wouldn't be ideal for some people?

    On your second point, I don't see the "like" system being used a lot at the moment, so I don't think this will work.

    I also think it's very easy to write things online with no real truth behind it, which makes it impossible for someone to know if the advice is legitimate.

    "Dignics 80 is the worst rubber in the world because it has no spin or power"

    I've never used Dignics 80....... But how would you know, especially if you've never seen me play or can trust my advice?

    Extreme example perhaps, but I hope it made sense!

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  11. Lazer is offline
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    #11
    Ha ha, You must be kidding is this a joke? Think about it for a while. That violates the whole idea of a forum where individuals share experiences.
    Most people asking for advice are beginners and there it's not difficult, no need whatsoever for a video.

    Cheers
    L-zr

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  12. NDH is offline
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazer
    Ha ha, You must be kidding is this a joke? Think about it for a while. That violates the whole idea of a forum where individuals share experiences.
    Most people asking for advice are beginners and there it's not difficult, no need whatsoever for a video.

    Cheers
    L-zr

    I'm shocked you commented on this......

    It's always good to get multiple opinions from other members 😁


  13. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    All good points and I should probably add..... My thoughts behind this is to encourage MORE people to post useful content.

    If that means beginners stop advising people to buy the Viscaria with Tenergy (because that's what they use), then that's a good thing in my book!

    Anyway, your points....

    How to get verified?

    I think video is the best thing here - This isn't supposed to be a really in-depth analysis of people's abilities. But whilst someone might know the "on paper" stats of certain equipment, it doesn't always translate to actual gameplay, and if they can't hit a standard forehand topspin, then I would want to know that information if they were giving advice.

    You can also take "rating", but that's certainly always going to come with a certain amount of inaccuracy given the varying systems different countries use.

    From a privacy point of view, if that video is sent to Dan/Carl as the owner/moderator of the forum, I don't know - I don't see why most people can't simply upload a video and share it with others here? Could you explain why that wouldn't be ideal for some people?

    On your second point, I don't see the "like" system being used a lot at the moment, so I don't think this will work.

    I also think it's very easy to write things online with no real truth behind it, which makes it impossible for someone to know if the advice is legitimate.

    "Dignics 80 is the worst rubber in the world because it has no spin or power"

    I've never used Dignics 80....... But how would you know, especially if you've never seen me play or can trust my advice?

    Extreme example perhaps, but I hope it made sense!

    I see. I think you are right, there doesn’t need to be a strict standard on verification, just a proof of certain knowledge. Also, if you said that D80 is terrible, I actually feel inclined to believe you because of all the good advice you’ve given before. I think there also needs to be a way to identify mistakes made by trustworthy and verified people.

    PS: I’m still a little concerned about the truthfulness of the video. I can find tons of videos on domestic Chinese video websites of non famous but provincial level players that I could claim to be me and nobody would know if I really wanted to.

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    Last edited by PingBirdPong; 12-23-2021 at 12:19 PM.
    Modestly, Leo

  14. NDH is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    I see. I think you are right, there doesn’t need to be a strict standard on verification, just a proof of certain knowledge. Also, if you said that D80 is terrible, I actually feel inclined to believe you because of all the good advice you’ve given before. I think there also needs to be a way to identify mistakes made by trustworthy and verified people.

    PS: I’m still a little concerned about the truthfulness of the video. I can find tons of videos on domestic Chinese video websites of non famous but provincial level players that I could claim to be me and nobody would know if I really wanted to.

    Yeah you could do, although I'd question "what the point" of it would be?

    My initial thought was really around people asking for help - All you have to do is read the numerous threads of people asking for advice, and I'm really not sure any of the advice is actually worth anything at the end of the day, because no one knows the person giving the advice (and what level they are), and most of the time, you don't know what level the OP is.

    Personally speaking, I think a small tweak to the forum could make such a big impact on the quality that is posted, which in time, will benefit everyone.

    I'm sure not much will change, but it didn't hurt to put the opinion out there for others to consider

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  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #15
    On the old TTDaily site, before this "upgrade", there were members who had labels like: "equipment expert", "verified coach", "verified youtuber" that made it so you knew that there were certain people who knew what they were talking about in certain areas.

    I think it would be Dan who made decisions like that and I think it would be the IT team for the website who would implement those things. But, since Dan has been so busy he has not gotten to the bugs on the website that have been here since the site switched from the old site to the new, I am not sure if or when it could/would happen.

    BTW: on the subject of advice on technique based on video footage, that is a complicated subject. I am often not so happy that, when I finally convince someone to post video footage of themself on the site, there end up being a ton of comments, often from people who probably are not any better than the person in the video about things that would simply make the person self conscious and REGRET having posted video footage.

    The people who know what they are talking about generally seem to post constructive comments that are helpful, and the people who are probably shouldn't be qualified are saying things that are just insulting or annoying. So, I understand how people get selfconscious about posting footage. And this is also where these kinds of labels added to some members might be useful.

    So, yeah. It is a complicated subject. But, it would be possible to create a system where people who are newer could be made to feel "safe" when posting footage of their standard of play. In the long run, it is good to get to know who people are. I know I have seen footage of Brs and I know he is a pretty solid player who can generate really decent spin and has an evil BH SP. I have seen footage of NDH and I know he is darn good as well. I have played with Der_Echte, NextLevel and a host of other TTDaily members so, there are a bunch I know and trust what is coming from them and as a result, I am better able to understand where they are coming from when the make comments. This is a community. It would be nice to get to know more people and how they actually are in real life rather than just seeing an internet persona that isn't real.

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  16. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    On the old TTDaily site, before this "upgrade", there were members who had labels like: "equipment expert", "verified coach", "verified youtuber" that made it so you knew that there were certain people who knew what they were talking about in certain areas.

    I think it would be Dan who made decisions like that and I think it would be the IT team for the website who would implement those things. But, since Dan has been so busy he has not gotten to the bugs on the website that have been here since the site switched from the old site to the new, I am not sure if or when it could/would happen.

    BTW: on the subject of advice on technique based on video footage, that is a complicated subject. I am often not so happy that, when I finally convince someone to post video footage of themself on the site, there end up being a ton of comments, often from people who probably are not any better than the person in the video about things that would simply make the person self conscious and REGRET having posted video footage.

    The people who know what they are talking about generally seem to post constructive comments that are helpful, and the people who are probably shouldn't be qualified are saying things that are just insulting or annoying. So, I understand how people get selfconscious about posting footage. And this is also where these kinds of labels added to some members might be useful.

    So, yeah. It is a complicated subject. But, it would be possible to create a system where people who are newer could be made to feel "safe" when posting footage of their standard of play. In the long run, it is good to get to know who people are. I know I have seen footage of Brs and I know he is a pretty solid player who can generate really decent spin and has an evil BH SP. I have seen footage of NDH and I know he is darn good as well. I have played with Der_Echte, NextLevel and a host of other TTDaily members so, there are a bunch I know and trust what is coming from them and as a result, I am better able to understand where they are coming from when the make comments. This is a community. It would be nice to get to know more people and how they actually are in real life rather than just seeing an internet persona that isn't real.

    I understand. I’ll try to post a video of myself playing on YT and link it here ASAP. I’ll ask for some advice at the same time. Also, what is the link for the old website? Or is it the same URL, just remade?
    PS: if the tag thing comes back, can I get a tag that says “ verified cheater”, “banned by ITTF” or “ can’t do backhand flick” ?

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    Last edited by PingBirdPong; 12-23-2021 at 01:15 PM.
    Modestly, Leo

  17. Gozo is offline
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    #17
    This is so similar to the plot of Marvel Avengers: Civil War where on one side Iron Man et al ok to unmasking all the superheroes in Marvel Universe and on the opposing side is Spiderman et al who wishes to maintain their secret identity for obvious reason: Privacy.

    If theory if TTD succeed in applying this exclusive structure, there will be less comments and my guess is that the forum will have less traffic and noise which defeats the purpose of a public forum.

    It is the moderator's call at the end, more exclusivity equals less traffic, more inclusivity equals more traffic.

    My final thoughts: TT, in the larger scheme of thing is after all just a game. It is not like we are doctors discussing about the life and death situation of patient, where only qualified person can comment. Let everyone comment without fear nor favour and let the asker decide whether to listen or not. Let the concept of caveat emptor prevail.

    For me, the EJ'ing part has been the most fun aspect of taking up this sport and seriously speaking if I were to play with one set-up since day one of taking the sport seriously, I would not have lasted this long. meaning I would have been bored to death. (NB: It has been six years since I first picked up this sport ).

    I am just playing the role of the devil's advocate. Thank you for reading.

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    Anyone who takes time out of their day to ask questions on a forum like this is taking it seriously, so why should the response be any different?

    I suspect the people who would be against this are those who have been giving advice with little ability to back it up.

    MOG singlehandedly disproves your first statement above.

    As to your second statement, consider the possibility that people might be against this because it emphasizes by professionalization the very least valuable content on TTD. What exactly is your ability to recommend specific equipment to someone you have seen hit vs block on a two minute cellphone video? How much difference will their choice between 50 nearly identical ESN rubbers or clone blades make to their real-world results? Have you even played extensively or thoroughly tested all of the things you recommend?

    I'm sure you are a very good player, but the whole concept of personalized TTD forum equipment advice is inherently stupid, imo. There have been some threads, many actually, where Carl or others kind of laid out a set of standard equipment by level. They start with five-ply woods and some intro rubbers, and usually top out around Viscaria with Tenergy/Dignics or TB ALC with recent ESN. So it's like a three level menu:
    All+ blade and intro rubbers for beginners,
    Off - blade with medium rubbers for intermediate,
    Off blade and high-end rubbers for advanced. And that's it.

    Having some *match* video to assess playing level between those three broad levels would be useful. Using a short video to recommend a precise, unique blade and rubber combination is simply ridiculous.

    You asked for thoughts, but, like many of the people who ask for equipment advice here, only wanted confirmation of the idea you already had. It would be more helpful to players, more truthful about the interchangeable nature of TT equipment, and fewer boring threads on the forum, to answer every What setup? post with that identical three-part menu response.

    But if it pleases you to set yourself up as a kind of blade and rubber sommelier, fine, whatever makes you happy.

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    Last edited by Brs; 12-23-2021 at 01:26 PM.

  19. NDH is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs

    MOG singlehandedly disproves your first statement above.

    As to your second statement, consider the possibility that people might be against this because it emphasizes by professionalization the very least valuable content on TTD. What exactly is your ability to recommend specific equipment to someone you have seen hit vs block on a two minute cellphone video? How much difference will their choice between 50 nearly identical ESN rubbers or clone blades make to their real-world results? Have you even played extensively or thoroughly tested all of the things you recommend?

    I'm sure you are a very good player, but the whole concept of personalized TTD forum equipment advice is inherently stupid, imo. There have been some threads, many actually, where Carl or others kind of laid out a set of standard equipment by level. They start with five-ply woods and some intro rubbers, and usually top out around Viscaria with Tenergy/Dignics or TB ALC with recent ESN. So it's like a three level menu:
    All+ blade and intro rubbers for beginners,
    Off - blade with medium rubbers for intermediate,
    Off blade and high-end rubbers for advanced. And that's it.

    Having some *match* video to assess playing level between those three broad levels would be useful. Using a short video to recommend a precise, unique blade and rubber combination is simply ridiculous.

    You asked for thoughts, but, like many of the people who ask for equipment advice here, only wanted confirmation of the idea you already had. It would be more helpful to players, more truthful about the interchangeable nature of TT equipment, and fewer boring threads on the forum, to answer every What setup? post with that identical three-part menu response.

    But if it pleases you to set yourself up as a kind of blade and rubber sommelier, fine, whatever makes you happy.

    I was initially going to presume something had got lost in translation, but given the grasp of your English, I can only assume that either you have jumped to a conclusion that isn't there, or you are intentionally trying to put words and meaning into something completely different.

    But to reiterate a point that has perhaps got lost from the original meaning.....

    This isn't about "exclusivity" or "professionalism" - It's simply about making a better experience for all involved.

    The only people who would "lose" in this situation would be those who pretend they are something they are not.

    I could easily take advice from a much lesser player about certain equipment, because I'm not a massive EJ, and generally stick to the same sorts of things.

    Last edited by NDH; 12-23-2021 at 01:48 PM.

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    #20
    TBH I think it's really quite easy to see whose advice you should or should not take into account here, even without having seen proof/verification.
    Just spend one week lurking on the forum seeing who posts what, or even just have a look at the history of comments from one given person…
    Even the "like" system is not so bad.

    So, I don't really think there's a real issue here. I mean if the beginner asking questions doesn't go as far as trying to see who is giving them answers, they wouldn't either see the difference between "verified users" or not.

    Lastly, I think that advice coming from a good player is nice, but advice coming from someone knowledgeable about the specific topic is better. Say you ask about something antispin, or tacky-rubbers… well, even some good players might have a very biased opinion on the subject, while a "non-verified" user but who has played with anti a lot, might have great (experience-based) input.

    [e.g., I play with short-pips on the backhand and my coach, even if he now plays with two BS used to play with SP for a long time… which is why I would value his SP-related advice more than advice from a stronger player who has never played with SPs]

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