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  1. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    PMs are great, but it isn't crowding, there are MANY people who post or lurk who may gain from seeing some other great posters discuss things openly.

    I thought that the whole idea of this thread was limitting amount of people who comment on the game.

    /devnull

  2. lodro is online now
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
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    #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    I thought that the whole idea of this thread was limitting amount of people who comment on the game.

    With the mess the website is in and all the faults, they probably have not found a way yet to block the "unworthy " like myself QED 😁 P.S. good on ye GOZO, keep having fun

    The Following User Likes lodro's Post:

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    Last edited by lodro; 06-13-2022 at 10:37 AM.

  3. NDH is offline
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    #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    I thought that the whole idea of this thread was limitting amount of people who comment on the game

    The idea of this thread was to encourage people to post video footage of themselves in the knowledge they can get constructive feedback from players who are a known quantity, and who have a history of offering quality constructive advice.

    I think what Der meant was that all of those people who lurk in the background (or post, but don't actually ask for advice) will benefit from seeing "real world" footage, and the following advice that is given.

    I imagine Gozo's journey is similar to many others, and it's useful to read the feedback for Gozo, rather than reading people debate the intricacies of Ma Long's forehand.


    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    With the mess the website is in and all the faults, they probably have not found a way yet to block the "unworthy " like myself QED 😁 P.S. good on ye GOZO, keep having fun

    Apologies if there was a joke in here that I've completely missed, but I just wanted to clarify a few things.

    On the website front.... It's annoying to have ongoing bugs, but let's remember it's completely free, and 95% of it works as expected.

    There are always other forums if people are that unhappy.

    As for the "unworthy" comment. It has nothing to do with worthiness.

    I've been very busy recently, so I may have missed it, but have you ever posted video footage of yourself?

    This isn't some kind of "invasion of privacy" thing, it's more about accountability and transparency.

    I've personally championed the "you shouldn't be able to comment on others until you've posted yourself", because people talk a lot of BS.....

    They are significantly less likely to talk BS if there is video of their own play out there, and I expect the reason why everyone isn't lining up to post video of themselves is because they aren't as good on camera as they'd like to be.....

    It works both ways as well. It allows people to see where the advice is coming from.

    So if you see a comment like "You need to do this and that", and then you see their own game play which is terrible..... You know that at BEST, the advice is more "textbook" than experience, and at WORST, it's just meaningless words......

    But regardless of your ability, I really encourage as many people as possible to record a small amount of play - It'll make the website much better.



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  4. PingBirdPong is offline
    says Verified Cheater, Banned by ITTF :)
     
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    #364
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    The idea of this thread was to encourage people to post video footage of themselves in the knowledge they can get constructive feedback from players who are a known quantity, and who have a history of offering quality constructive advice.

    I think what Der meant was that all of those people who lurk in the background (or post, but don't actually ask for advice) will benefit from seeing "real world" footage, and the following advice that is given.

    I imagine Gozo's journey is similar to many others, and it's useful to read the feedback for Gozo, rather than reading people debate the intricacies of Ma Long's forehand.

    Apologies if there was a joke in here that I've completely missed, but I just wanted to clarify a few things.

    On the website front.... It's annoying to have ongoing bugs, but let's remember it's completely free, and 95% of it works as expected.

    There are always other forums if people are that unhappy.

    As for the "unworthy" comment. It has nothing to do with worthiness.

    I've been very busy recently, so I may have missed it, but have you ever posted video footage of yourself?

    This isn't some kind of "invasion of privacy" thing, it's more about accountability and transparency.

    I've personally championed the "you shouldn't be able to comment on others until you've posted yourself", because people talk a lot of BS.....

    They are significantly less likely to talk BS if there is video of their own play out there, and I expect the reason why everyone isn't lining up to post video of themselves is because they aren't as good on camera as they'd like to be.....

    It works both ways as well. It allows people to see where the advice is coming from.

    So if you see a comment like "You need to do this and that", and then you see their own game play which is terrible..... You know that at BEST, the advice is more "textbook" than experience, and at WORST, it's just meaningless words......

    But regardless of your ability, I really encourage as many people as possible to record a small amount of play - It'll make the website much better.


    Speaking of my own footage… I need to get some new videos fast.
    Playing with a serious injury is not the best way for people to get to know your game, and I probably should get new footage if I want more accurate advice.

    So the question is, should it be a game, or practice?

    Achieve your dreams, or die trying.

  5. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #365
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    Speaking of my own footage… I need to get some new videos fast.
    Playing with a serious injury is not the best way for people to get to know your game, and I probably should get new footage if I want more accurate advice.

    So the question is, should it be a game, or practice?

    What is that you are trying to diagnose? Tactics, applied form? Then match play. Static form? then practice.

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    /devnull

  6. Gozo is offline
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    #366
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I think what Der meant was that all of those people who lurk in the background (or post, but don't actually ask for advice) will benefit from seeing "real world" footage, and the following advice that is given.
    I imagine Gozo's journey is similar to many others, and it's useful to read the feedback for Gozo, rather than reading people debate the intricacies of Ma Long's forehand

    If I may, I wish to add on to NDH's real world comment. This is quite similar to the super-model syndrome. Teenage girls reading Vogue, Cosmopolitan, 17 etc are looking at images of supermodels that in no way represent the real world. Then they get depressed, heart-broken knowing that they will never look anything remotely like what is presented.

    Similarly, many players who keep looking at the pros video will probably experience the same supermodel syndrome.


  7. Gozo is offline
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    #367
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    Speaking of my own footage… I need to get some new videos fast.
    Playing with a serious injury is not the best way for people to get to know your game, and I probably should get new footage if I want more accurate advice.

    So the question is, should it be a game, or practice?

    what is stopping you from doing both my young friend?

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  8. NDH is offline
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    #368

    OK, Gozo my man!

    I've only watched the first video - I find with doubles, people play very differently, and tactics are completely different.

    So I'll focus on the singles match for now.

    First item on the agenda..... Forehand loop/kill/drive - Call it what you want.

    An easy fix, which thankfully, you've perfectly demonstrated yourself later in the game.

    A few examples here.

    02:30 - Bad.

    You are a little too slow to move backwards, causing your whole body and arm to fall away and the shot to be a little limp, and inaccurate.

    03:40 - Good!

    Very similar scenario, but this time you manage to get around it, and get the weight transfer going forward, not backwards/sideways.

    04:25 - This is a major problem that was so close to being perfect.

    When executing a "Welder-esque" block down the line, you need to show no emotion, no celebration.... just pure ice in your veins.

    I saw a little fist pump and celebration..... Shame on you.

    For anyone who doesn't speak English as their native language, the above was very much a joke

    Another footwork related issue.....

    05:25 and 06:00 - Your right foot is too far back, and you are learning into your left foot. This generally feels easier to twist for a forehand (I should know, I used to do it!), but you are putting too much emphasis on your arm speed/power, and ultimately, you missed both of those shots.....

    [Imgur](https://imgur.com/a9YEfRp)

    BUT.....

    06:14 - Perfection! Just goes to show you can do it, and it's now about repetition.

    [Imgur](https://imgur.com/hDxNDaw)

    06:30 - You are set up to receive on your backhand, and hold the bat in a very backhand oriented way - Its makes it harder for you to adjust, so when he served long backspin to your forehand, you weren't in position to loop it.

    You want to get in the mindset that if the ball is coming off the table, you are going to play a topspin shot.

    06:46 - This is the same pendulum serve that you've done many times, and each time you end up on the back foot.

    You serve, he pushes, rather than attack, you push back... and then he attacks. OK, he misses most of them, but you don't want to rely on that.

    07:15 - Another example of getting caught on the FH with a serve.


    OK, overall take aways.....

    These are great games to practice. You are at a similar level, but you have the better shots, and should win 99 times out of 100.

    BUT.... You are better off losing the first 50 through attacking and missing, than you are by letting him attack and miss.

    Don't be scared of losing quick points. I often see a fear in players that they don't want to attack early (3rd ball), because if they miss, that's the point over.

    So they push, and play around until they are happy to play a shot...... But this is a false sense of security, and you'll not improve (especially if the other person attacks you first).

    Try not to be reliant on receiving on BH as well.

    Other than that, great progress, and thanks as always for posting.

    Sorry - Not sure why the photos aren't working.

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    Last edited by NDH; 06-13-2022 at 11:49 AM.

  9. Der_Echte is offline
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    #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    I thought that the whole idea of this thread was limitting amount of people who comment on the game.

    The idea of the thread and Carl's intent was to give a safe space to people to post match footage and get comments/support from a limited small group of people Carl chose and knows are sound commenters/coaches.

    What I was saying in my comment you quoted was that if the other commenters/coaches (who are authorized/encouraged) to comment... if these make great comments, it would benefit the many viewers of this thread, both active TTD members and lurkers.

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  10. PingBirdPong is offline
    says Verified Cheater, Banned by ITTF :)
     
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    #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    what is stopping you from doing both my young friend?
    1. The upcoming exam that will decide my life
    2. The restrictions
    3. The VPN not strong enough to upload a lot of stuff
    Achieve your dreams, or die trying.

  11. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #371
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I've personally championed the "you shouldn't be able to comment on others until you've posted yourself", because people talk a lot of BS.....

    I agree 1000%

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  12. Gozo is offline
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    #372
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    OK, Gozo my man!

    I've only watched the first video - I find with doubles, people play very differently, and tactics are completely different.

    So I'll focus on the singles match for now.

    First item on the agenda..... Forehand loop/kill/drive - Call it what you want.

    An easy fix, which thankfully, you've perfectly demonstrated yourself later in the game.

    A few examples here.

    02:30 - Bad.

    You are a little too slow to move backwards, causing your whole body and arm to fall away and the shot to be a little limp, and inaccurate.

    03:40 - Good!

    Very similar scenario, but this time you manage to get around it, and get the weight transfer going forward, not backwards/sideways.

    04:25 - This is a major problem that was so close to being perfect.

    When executing a "Welder-esque" block down the line, you need to show no emotion, no celebration.... just pure ice in your veins.

    I saw a little fist pump and celebration..... Shame on you.

    For anyone who doesn't speak English as their native language, the above was very much a joke

    Another footwork related issue.....

    05:25 and 06:00 - Your right foot is too far back, and you are learning into your left foot. This generally feels easier to twist for a forehand (I should know, I used to do it!), but you are putting too much emphasis on your arm speed/power, and ultimately, you missed both of those shots.....

    [Imgur](https://imgur.com/a9YEfRp)

    BUT.....

    06:14 - Perfection! Just goes to show you can do it, and it's now about repetition.

    [Imgur](https://imgur.com/hDxNDaw)

    06:30 - You are set up to receive on your backhand, and hold the bat in a very backhand oriented way - Its makes it harder for you to adjust, so when he served long backspin to your forehand, you weren't in position to loop it.

    You want to get in the mindset that if the ball is coming off the table, you are going to play a topspin shot.

    06:46 - This is the same pendulum serve that you've done many times, and each time you end up on the back foot.

    You serve, he pushes, rather than attack, you push back... and then he attacks. OK, he misses most of them, but you don't want to rely on that.

    07:15 - Another example of getting caught on the FH with a serve.


    OK, overall take aways.....

    These are great games to practice. You are at a similar level, but you have the better shots, and should win 99 times out of 100.

    BUT.... You are better off losing the first 50 through attacking and missing, than you are by letting him attack and miss.

    Don't be scared of losing quick points. I often see a fear in players that they don't want to attack early (3rd ball), because if they miss, that's the point over.

    So they push, and play around until they are happy to play a shot...... But this is a false sense of security, and you'll not improve (especially if the other person attacks you first).

    Try not to be reliant on receiving on BH as well.

    Other than that, great progress, and thanks as always for posting.

    Sorry - Not sure why the photos aren't working.

    Your response is like a treasure chest full of gems and precious stones. So much valuable information for my betterment. I'll read them a few times more before my upcoming game on Saturday.

    BTW: Guys, if you pay close attention, there is not one, but two Walner'esque blocks down the line in my singles game. @NDH, I'll remember to remain ice-cool if I ever do another Waldner block again.

    As for my BH oriented grip, I have watched too many Lin Yunju videos and was thinking in his mind frame. I wanted to BH flick everything, much to my detriment of course. I'll keep this in mind and adjust accordingly.

    As for full out attack aka 3rd ball attack, that is also what my coach tells me. However, I cannot let my club-mates down, I cannot be taking too much risk, not in a match environment anyway. I'll do the full out attack mode when I play normal non competition games.

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    Last edited by Gozo; 06-13-2022 at 01:40 PM.

  13. NDH is offline
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    #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    Your response is like a treasure chest full of gems and precious stones. So much valuable information for my betterment. I'll read them a few times more before my upcoming game on Saturday.

    BTW: Guys, if you pay close attention, there is not one, but two Walner'esque blocks down the line in my singles game. @NDH, I'll remember to remain ice-cool if I ever do another Waldner block again.

    As for my BH oriented grip, I have watched too many Lin Yunju videos and was thinking in his mind frame. I wanted to BH flick everything, much to my detriment of course. I'll keep this in mind and adjust accordingly.

    As for full out attack aka 3rd ball attack, that is also what my coach tells me. However, I cannot let my club-mates down, I cannot be taking too much risk, not in a match environment anyway. I'll do the full out attack mode when I play normal non competition games.

    I didn't mention that second block as it included another filthy fist pump 😂

    As for the backhand flick..... It's not a bad tactic to use - It's worth improving it though, so you feel confident in getting the spin.

    You hit it quite flat at the moment, which works well for those sidespin serves you were getting back, but gives you nothing against back spin serves.

    Regardless of that, be prepared to play forehand loops to anything that comes off the end of the table.

    Spin is more important than speed at this point.

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    Last edited by NDH; 06-13-2022 at 07:31 PM.

  14. Gozo is offline
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    #374
    I apologize as I have to remove the YT video from public view as requested by some players out of respect for their privacy.

    Thank you all those who gave me tips and pointers earlier.

    It would appear that getting footage of match play out for public viewing is more challenging than anticipated.

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    Last edited by Gozo; 06-14-2022 at 01:43 PM.

  15. Kuba Hajto is offline
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    I apologize as I have to remove the YT video from public view as requested by some players out of respect for their privacy.

    Thank you all those who gave me tips and pointers earlier.

    It would appear that getting footage of match play out for public viewing is more challenging than anticipated.

    That is one of the reasons I do not publish mine. I usually ask before taping.

    /devnull

  16. Brs is offline
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    #376
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    As for full out attack aka 3rd ball attack, that is also what my coach tells me. However, I cannot let my club-mates down, I cannot be taking too much risk, not in a match environment anyway. I'll do the full out attack mode when I play normal non competition games.
    Hi Gozo,

    I can't add much to NDH's marvelous post, but I did want to say about 3rd ball attack. You don't have to end the point with some crazy strong attack. All you have to do is open with topspin. At our level the opponent will almost always block not counterloop. And then you are.playing loop vs block just like a training drill.

    Whoever opens the rally wins the point a majority of the time. So a nice, easy opening loop vs backspin is in truth less risky than pushing back a long underspin ball.

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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #377

    Thanks to you guys who explained some of the reasons for this thread in the last page or so. I know I have laid out the reasons. But, it was nice to read other people explaining the thoughts behind it.

    And the AI software that removes posts from people who should not be posting.....that is me. So far, there were a few comments from people who should not have been making comments on the footage and most of them, I just let stand because the comments were useful and constructive.

    The one thing is, if someone did want to comment on the technique of others in this thread, I would need to see them post footage of them playing. That is entirely related to what NDH said about why you should post footage of yourself before you comment on others. And I believe there are many many reasons for this.

    1) Seeing the standard of play of the person who is giving you advice helps us put that advice into context.

    2) This is not foolproof but, when someone has posted footage of their play, they are much more likely to think more carefully about how they word constructive feedback given to someone asking for help.

    3) The level of the person giving advice does not necessarily determine the value of that advice. But it is worth understanding that there are things that seem impossible to understand at one level that are easily understood at a different level because of how this is a game that involves high levels of technical skill, subtle techniques for touching and spinning the ball, high levels of deception with regards to spin, and a more advanced player will be able to see these kinds of things instantly. And a less advanced player will not see the difference between a semi-flat, but fast, drive from a 1400 level player and a fast power loop that is loaded with spin from a much higher level player.

    I cannot tell you how many times I have seen people talking about looping with massive spin on the forum only to see that when they actually post footage, the contact is flat and there is almost no spin on the ball. And how frequently, when you point out to someone who is at that lower level that the ball does not have much spin and that you can see from how it bounces after it hits the net, or hits the floor, that there really was not much spin, and that there is not much arc in the trajectory of the ball, that they can't tell or see the difference.

    And a higher level player cannot become a higher level player without being able to see these kinds of details in ball quality, and spin.

    So, even though any level of player could give excellent advice. There are things that a higher level player will see that will seem invisible to a player who is of a lower level.

    So, for all these reasons, it is worth being able to see who is giving the advice so you can put it in context. Even if, there will be times when a lower level player will give excellent advice and there are also times when I higher level player WILL NOT.

    But all the people who have been selected as qualified to give advice are of a fairly decent level, and they are also very good at giving sound advice which is why they have been selected.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 06-14-2022 at 07:46 PM.
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  18. Gozo is offline
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    #378
    As promised, these are four YT video of my matches today, with commentaries.

    Video 1. Commentary: This was the first game I played and as you can see I was not mentally ready. I was not playing my usual game. I believe I have not properly warm up yet, or to be specific, not mentally warm up. Also, take a look at my opponent service in particular. I want to highlight it is darn difficult to take service when it is not tossed at least 6 inches high. In this game, I felt rushed by my opponent. His service come very sudden and I was not ready to receive most of the time. I lost 0-3.

    Video 2. Commentary: I played this elderly gentleman and had an easy win. It is not much to watch but just to showcase the baseline of how I will fare against someone who is of lower level than I am. Hence if I play against noobs, it would probably look something like this. I won this game 2-0 as my opponent call it a day on the game after two sets. Probably he was tired.

    Video 3 & 4. Commentary: I lost to the player in Video Nos. 3 but won the player in Video Nos. 4. I put them together because I enjoyed these two games the most as I managed to play the type of game that I love / enjoy. I believe I played a controlled attacking game, neither taking excessive risk nor being too placid. I do attack both FH and BH when the need arises, with more FH attack than BH.

    Have a look my dear friends and do comment for my betterment ( for those who are qualified to do so as per the list of approved commenters stated in page 1 )

    Thank you.

    NB: You may ignore Video Nos. 1 & 2 as those were put there just to highlight some context,

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  19. Der_Echte is offline
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    #379
    The comments about specific things to do for your strategic development have been made for the most part, I avoid them.I will later make comments about comps in general later.

    Your opponent in game 1... serve directly out of hand, hard to read serve. Welcome to the world of players who do not care about ITTF rules (that are generally copy/paste applied to national and regional TT assns) It is a tough situation. You are unlikely to get whoever runs the comp to supervise him and stop him from serving illegally... so you gotta deal with it right there. There are a couple things to do to help you down the road. You could learn to serve illegally (both for learning what is happening and to give them their own medicine when they blatantly do that). You could find the most illegal servers in your area and ask them to serve to you for 5 minutes. Do that every time you go to the gym. Buy them water if you have to. At some point after so many reps, you will start to see the ball better and do better vs illegal serves.

    Game 4 shows what a lot of us have been saying. You are not ready for competitive match play in terms of being expected to win through being consistent enough and quality enough on offense. You make way too many errors, also your opponents make errors every time the wind blows 1 kpm. The winner of the point in your match is often the one who didn't attack first (opposite of what usually happens)

    This is why Tony advocates a break from competing to develop better and more consistent fundamentals. I have two thoughts about this.

    1... I agree with Tony in that you are not gunna get much or grow much in your fundamentals playing matches right now. Your fundamentals are not strong enough to be 75% in practice, so when you do a match, your attacking is under 50%, which is an unacceptable error rate. You are pissing away points. You minimize that by not attacking, but then you do not develop fundamentals that way and it is also bad for your attitude and strategic development. You should be attacking balls that are attackable and presentable, so your opponent doesn't do that to you. This supports shutting down the comps and going to work in training.

    2... I agree with you that you SHOULD play competitive matches. WHY? I think when you play competitive matches, you will quickly realize why Tony said what he said. That will get you to want to get more solid in fundamentals... to improve consistency and quality. Comps are fun and motivating, it is a joy, players should enjoy themselves in this sport. Failing in comps should motivate you to improve and come back, it is a fighting spirit that is good. However, you fight better when you have better skills, consistency, and quality. When you APPROACH a high level of consistency in practice (over 75% on your shots) in random drill... at that point it is valuable to start doing comps and attack the balls that are there, whether you land it or not. it will give you the right attitude and with more match experience, your consistency in a match improves, then your performance in matches improves. So does your motivation and enjoyment. Another aspect is the question of HOW to gain match experience. You get that by FAILING... not by failing itself, but by failing and seeing/knowing why you failed and learning what to do.

    Performance in competitive matches

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  20. lodro is online now
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Elite TTD Member 482 1,328
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    lodro is online now
    says TT-CLOWN, old git
     
    Elite TTD Member 1,328 482

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    #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    The comments about specific things to do for your strategic development have been made for the most part, I avoid them.I will later make comments about comps in general later.

    Your opponent in game 1... serve directly out of hand, hard to read serve. Welcome to the world of players who do not care about ITTF rules (that are generally copy/paste applied to national and regional TT assns) It is a tough situation. You are unlikely to get whoever runs the comp to supervise him and stop him from serving illegally... so you gotta deal with it right there. There are a couple things to do to help you down the road. You could learn to serve illegally (both for learning what is happening and to give them their own medicine when they blatantly do that). You could find the most illegal servers in your area and ask them to serve to you for 5 minutes. Do that every time you go to the gym. Buy them water if you have to. At some point after so many reps, you will start to see the ball better and do better vs illegal serves.

    Game 4 shows what a lot of us have been saying. You are not ready for competitive match play in terms of being expected to win through being consistent enough and quality enough on offense. You make way too many errors, also your opponents make errors every time the wind blows 1 kpm. The winner of the point in your match is often the one who didn't attack first (opposite of what usually happens)

    This is why Tony advocates a break from competing to develop better and more consistent fundamentals. I have two thoughts about this.

    1... I agree with Tony in that you are not gunna get much or grow much in your fundamentals playing matches right now. Your fundamentals are not strong enough to be 75% in practice, so when you do a match, your attacking is under 50%, which is an unacceptable error rate. You are pissing away points. You minimize that by not attacking, but then you do not develop fundamentals that way and it is also bad for your attitude and strategic development. You should be attacking balls that are attackable and presentable, so your opponent doesn't do that to you. This supports shutting down the comps and going to work in training.

    2... I agree with you that you SHOULD play competitive matches. WHY? I think when you play competitive matches, you will quickly realize why Tony said what he said. That will get you to want to get more solid in fundamentals... to improve consistency and quality. Comps are fun and motivating, it is a joy, players should enjoy themselves in this sport. Failing in comps should motivate you to improve and come back, it is a fighting spirit that is good. However, you fight better when you have better skills, consistency, and quality. When you APPROACH a high level of consistency in practice (over 75% on your shots) in random drill... at that point it is valuable to start doing comps and attack the balls that are there, whether you land it or not. it will give you the right attitude and with more match experience, your consistency in a match improves, then your performance in matches improves. So does your motivation and enjoyment. Another aspect is the question of HOW to gain match experience. You get that by FAILING... not by failing itself, but by failing and seeing/knowing why you failed and learning what to do.

    Performance in competitive matches

    Old Chinese wise man said: "there are many ways to gain wisdom"

    By contemplating and meditating - this is the most noblest way
    By copying others - that is the cheapest way
    By experience - that is the most painful way

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