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    #281
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel

    Yeah, as we get older, those pesky disks ruin all kinds of things. It is one of the reasons why I am reluctant to comment on video sometimes. So always caveat these pieces of advice as limited perspectives.

    Basically, part of the reason your forehand stroke comes across your body when you finish is that you are taking it too far in front of you with insufficient torso twist or abdominal fold or left knee lunge to get the upper body side on so you can come into the shot with more power. Your right leg should be a bit more side on to the table when you get into the backswing. Again, none of this is a big deal relative to how you want to play. I managed to get to the USATT 2000 level with a forehand that technically wasn't much better than yours - may have been more powerful on some days, but technically, it was just like as yours in many ways. You should consistently finish your strike at eye level or in front of your body but not past the center line when hitting a powerful topspin with a few exceptions for compromised movement. Coming across the body with the racket finishing at shoulder height usually means you didn't line up with the ball for a long time and you engaged too much upper arm either on the backswing or follow through. If I had good skills editing images, I would show it to you. You do it a good and proper topspin sometimes, but you deviate a bit at other times.

    There are some German and French coaches who would argue that what I am saying above doesn't matter too much as long as you use the body correctly and I understand that somewhat, though I would argue that there are timing issues introduced with the approach you are taking, especially against backspin. In any case, it is just food for though. some of it is tied to use of the lower body, but if you have lower body limitations of any kind, just ignore this. It can be annoying and painful to continue to seek improvement while dealing with injuries. I learned this the hard way.

    The key to table tennis improvement is almost always the backswing and the preparation to get to the backswing. It is almost never in the forward swing. On the backhand, you don't backswing close to far back enough. There is a letter C shape that your arm and elbow need to take to play a modern backhand loop. Your arm never gets close to it so you are basically only able to hit the ball with an open racket. I think Richie posted a video of Liam Pitchford teaching the technique somewhere earlier on this thread.

    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...l=1#post363753

    It has something in common with a frisbee tossing motion, and it can be compact or it can be large. But it is the element of the frisbee tossing motion that shapes the arm that you need to imitate what your coach is trying to show you.

    Thanks for the explanation. I’m going to explore the FH movement more, as currently I can’t see any real left leg lunge in my movement at all. I notice my finish when I’m hitting down the line is lined up with my right eye but the cross table shot always sees me cross body finish - is it just the cross table shot that’s problematic here?

    My coach describes the movement as like lifting a box from front to 90 deg and back again in order to achieve the upper body pivot.

    On the BH side I am trying in the video to hit the shorter drive shot as opposed to the longer more wristy topspin shot (the one you describe with the C shape) In these drills my coach is asking for a short swing, early hit ball with a very short movement (drive return against no backspin - maybe a serve return or early rally point) The goal being a short sharp controlled return and avoiding being driven backwards by the pace by taking it out in front. I often see these types of shots and rallies and it’s the shot Tom Lodziak is hitting in the video attached. Does this make sense?

    https://youtu.be/cgdeQllLahE


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    #282
    Quote Originally Posted by loerting
    Hello NextLevel, thank you for your help. I am not quite sure what exactly I am doing wrong with my left foot, and what you mean by "left foot turning inwards" (which axis?). Do I have to rotate the heel more outwards while keeping the toes on the ground? I don't have a video of my topspin against backspin right now, but I have the warmup of the match I linked:

    I'm not qualified to comment on your technique in this thread so I won't do that but are you generally getting off your swings are are you often forced to block or counter hit because you lack time for a full topspin?

    If you are getting off your swings everything should be fine but your opponent in the match seems to neutralize your forehand pretty well, does that often happen?

    Ma long and ofter chinese also use long swings and have no trouble getting their swing off but they of course have world class footwork, reflexes, anticipation and tons of training.

    Maybe you need to shorten up or just work on anticipating balls you can forehand better so you are earlier with your footwork and backswing, I don't know
    ​​​​​


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    #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    Thanks for the explanation. I’m going to explore the FH movement more, as currently I can’t see any real left leg lunge in my movement at all. I notice my finish when I’m hitting down the line is lined up with my right eye but the cross table shot always sees me cross body finish - is it just the cross table shot that’s problematic here?

    My coach describes the movement as like lifting a box from front to 90 deg and back again in order to achieve the upper body pivot.

    On the BH side I am trying in the video to hit the shorter drive shot as opposed to the longer more wristy topspin shot (the one you describe with the C shape) In these drills my coach is asking for a short swing, early hit ball with a very short movement (drive return against no backspin - maybe a serve return or early rally point) The goal being a short sharp controlled return and avoiding being driven backwards by the pace by taking it out in front. I often see these types of shots and rallies and it’s the shot Tom Lodziak is hitting in the video attached. Does this make sense?

    https://youtu.be/cgdeQllLahE

    Your left leg does twist a little so it is a matter of degree. The box lifting analogy is correct because it makes you rotate the both arms and hence the upper body, and not just the upper arm, the potential issue is the focus on the upper body and not on the lower body. Basically, when you throw that box, extend the arms a little and have them go towards where the ball is going a bit, not just going along the circle across your body automatically. It is the difference between hooking the ball on a golf swing and hitting the ball towards the target. And yes, you do this much better when hitting the ball down the line though I suspect part of that may be guiding the ball with your arm a bit much. The key is to take the ball somewhere in the golden triangle relative to how your body/feet are positioned so it is largely in the zone where your body is hitting towards the target with maximal power, as opposed trying to take it off the bounce where maybe only the arm is playing behind the ball.

    With the backhand, the strokes are different but not as dissimilar as one may think other than degrees of spin and wrist action. The old backhand drive used to be much flatter. The difference you are seeing with your stroke (which is similar to mine by the way, since I don't bend knees much) is that because you don't come forward over the ball as much as Tom does, maybe you don't trust your rubber to catch the ball as much but more likely tied to leaning forward. Nothing really wrong with it, other than it may not look the way you want it to look and maybe when topspin gets heavy you might have to close the racket more. You may also not be judging the ball height early enough and may be starting your racket a bit low.

    I do suspect that when you start topspinning, you may look at the stroke a bit differently. But I would say that is the least of your worries to be honest if you have any worries. This video overall is I think a much better place to find yourself than the last video. The comments about footwork are mostly to temper your expectations and understanding around what you are doing, so you can understand why it is a footwork drill and why someone might say it is not a footwork drill. And also, you don't go into a match thinking it will automatically translate given the vast differences between what happens when you know where the ball is going and rush there early, and when you need to read and prepare to hit the ball and the opponent frustrates your intentions.

    Last edited by NextLevel; 04-24-2022 at 12:59 PM.
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    #284
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel

    Your left leg does twist a little so it is a matter of degree. The box lifting analogy is correct because it makes you rotate the both arms and hence the upper body, and not just the upper arm, the potential issue is the focus on the upper body and not on the lower body. Basically, when you throw that box, extend the arms a little and have them go towards where the ball is going a bit, not just going along the circle across your body automatically. It is the difference between hooking the ball on a golf swing and hitting the ball towards the target. And yes, you do this much better when hitting the ball down the line though I suspect part of that may be guiding the ball with your arm a bit much. The key is to take the ball somewhere in the golden triangle relative to how your body/feet are positioned so it is largely in the zone where your body is hitting towards the target with maximal power, as opposed trying to take it off the bounce where maybe only the arm is playing behind the ball.

    With the backhand, the strokes are different but not as dissimilar as one may think other than degrees of spin and wrist action. The old backhand drive used to be much flatter. The difference you are seeing with your stroke (which is similar to mine by the way, since I don't bend knees much) is that because you don't come forward over the ball as much as Tom does, maybe you don't trust your rubber to catch the ball as much but more likely tied to leaning forward. Nothing really wrong with it, other than it may not look the way you want it to look and maybe when topspin gets heavy you might have to close the racket more. You may also not be judging the ball height early enough and may be starting your racket a bit low.

    I do suspect that when you start topspinning, you may look at the stroke a bit differently. But I would say that is the least of your worries to be honest if you have any worries. This video overall is I think a much better place to find yourself than the last video. The comments about footwork are mostly to temper your expectations and understanding around what you are doing, so you can understand why it is a footwork drill and why someone might say it is not a footwork drill. And also, you don't go into a match thinking it will automatically translate given the vast differences between what happens when you know where the ball is going and rush there early, and when you need to read and prepare to hit the ball and the opponent frustrates your intentions.

    Thanks - that makes perfect sense to me.

    interestingly I definitely feel more comfortable when topspinning my backhand and starting a little further back and lower - it’s the short closed bat shot I lack confidence in.

    Lots to work on next week..


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    #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs

    Nice to see you and your coach looking happy in training! Having fun in training contributes a lot to success. Related to that, your reactions when you miss are not helping you. Even after twenty good balls in a row you miss one and visibly judge yourself. That instant judgment kind of shuts off your observational brain and prevents you from sensing what actually happened to cause the miss. This may sound new-agey or whatever, but please try it and see what you think. Try to train without judgement or emotion, just feel and hear and see. And when you miss work out why. If you can't work it out ask the coach. Were you too early or too late? Did you mis-judge the spin or location? Was your body in the wrong posture? How tense was your arm? Did you hit the ball as thickly or thinly as you intended? Was the stroke plane what you intended? It's hard to let that judgement go. We all want to do well and put pressure on ourselves. But I believe you will gain a lot more from lessons if you put down those burdens and allow your body to sense exactly what is happening.

    I don't want to question the exercises because I don't know your coach's plan. To me it does not look like footwork. He is just working on your transition between forehand and backhand, along with basic technique. And that's level-appropriate as NL called it. A player can only focus on one or two things at one time. If you add larger movements to this before you master it that will only slow down your progress. There are a lot of semi-random variations you could add before you even get to footwork, like 1 or 2 fh - 1 or 2 bh, and middle - either side - middle - either side. It's good that you are taking some small steps even here, to get into better position for the ball when you could probably reach over. Because really everything has footwork, even blocking from one place. Probably the coach will get to more visible footwork as you continue to get better.

    About your forehand stroke and using the feet/legs/core to drive the swing (aka power from the ground) - okay, I agree with all NL says. You appear to still have a lot of tension in your forearm. It looks like the tip of the bat turns slightly upwards from it. In these exercises you are hitting so it doesn't matter that much. But when you start looping again it will be much easier the less tension you carry. Also your body can't swing your arm unless you rotate, your trunk with your arm pretty relaxed. If you had Ariel Hsing's (at 1:46 in the video) it would stop you from moving your upper arm so much. Or you could say stop you moving your elbow position, same thing. Then you would be forehand hitting with only small foot/knee/waist rotation and ideally a relaxed arm. From there you could scale the stroke size down for a block and up for a loop. The swing you are hitting with now works okay for hitting. But I don't know that you could size it up or down. So you might end up learning three different kinds of stroke for hit/block/loop instead of only one that adjusts in size and speed to the incoming ball. And three things is a lot harder to learn than one. If that makes any sense.

    Hi Brs

    Thanks is for taking the time to comment. You’re right, I do tend to get frustrated in Coaching sessions as I don’t like to be making mistakes. Doesn’t make much sense as you say…

    On FH I think tension and an inability to relax is one of my biggest challenges and needs constant awareness and reminders - I need to write it on my hand I think :-)

    That’s an interesting device Ariel is using - do you know if they are commercially available?

    Last edited by Wrighty67; 04-24-2022 at 01:14 PM.

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    #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Mr. Lörting,

    Some people early on like playing a little further back to give themselves a little more time to see the ball. It is a risk decision with trade-offs short and long term. You give up more angles and quickness for a little more security. That might make sense on a play in a certain match, but as a habit will cost you more in development and habits of striking the ball while it is higher to improve percentages/quality.

    A lot of mis-its, hitting out of zone, and striking off time are often simply not precisely soon enough seeing what is on the ball, where it is going, and what it is gunna do... a lot of these mistakes come from that and the corresponding lack of position/zone/timing. That will improve as you anticipate and see the ball better.

    A lot of very good players/coaches have given you several gold mines of info already.

    I have never thought of that in giving up angles, but it makes sense. I guess I developed the habit of playing further back because I am relatively slow (you can see me block often or move backwards to compensate) and don't anticipate enough, or I don't go back into ready position immediately after the strokes, I don't know. I am also playing H3 Neo on FH, and its counter game from the back is really fun to use. In the training i don't miss those balls that much (because I know the playwise of my partners), but I will definitely have to focus on playing more towards the table.

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    #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85

    I'm not qualified to comment on your technique in this thread so I won't do that but are you generally getting off your swings are are you often forced to block or counter hit because you lack time for a full topspin?

    If you are getting off your swings everything should be fine but your opponent in the match seems to neutralize your forehand pretty well, does that often happen?

    Ma long and ofter chinese also use long swings and have no trouble getting their swing off but they of course have world class footwork, reflexes, anticipation and tons of training.

    Maybe you need to shorten up or just work on anticipating balls you can forehand better so you are earlier with your footwork and backswing, I don't know
    ​​​​​

    Hello Dominik, the player I played plays 1-2 leagues above me and it was much harder to point with my forehand. I am normally more the one-shot finisher than the long rally player, but it was hard to play that way against him. I am not sure what you mean by "getting off your swings" (Bewegungen nicht beenden?), but I know that I am sometimes a bit slow when it comes to switching between FH and BH, which is maybe a side effect of my motions being too long.


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    #288
    Getting off the swing I meant not being able to take a full swing at the ball and instead having to block or counter because there isn't enough time for a full topspin.

    But if the opponent is at a higher level that explains it of course.

    Are you good at pivoting to the forehand in your backhand corner?


    ​​​​


    Last edited by Dominikk85; 04-24-2022 at 02:09 PM.

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    #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    Thanks - that makes perfect sense to me.

    interestingly I definitely feel more comfortable when topspinning my backhand and starting a little further back and lower - it’s the short closed bat shot I lack confidence in.

    Lots to work on next week..

    There is not alternative but to consciously and deliberately experiment and learn. Which is what BRS was trying to tell you when he said it is the completely wrong attitude to complain about missing because it enforces the wrong mindset. The stroke that puts the ball off the table in practice could be the stroke that puts the ball on the table in a match because the difference could be just about the incoming ball and nothing to do with the technique chosen. Developing the ability to adapt your stroke to incoming spin more valuable than getting the ball on the table all the time in practice.

    Some of these things never make sense until you learn them in the fire of competition. But we don't want the frustration to take you the wrong way.

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    #290
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85
    Getting off the swing I meant not being able to take a full swing at the ball and instead having to block or counter because there isn't enough time for a full topspin.

    But if the opponent is at a higher level that explains it of course.

    Are you good at pivoting to the forehand in your backhand corner?


    ​​​​


    Normally I am, yes, but as my backhand is pretty good, I don't play it that often.


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    #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    That’s an interesting device Ariel is using - do you know if they are commercially available?

    I think it's homemade out of resistance bands. I have looked on TT webstores and never found one. I would buy one for myself if there is a commercial version. I tend to let my upper arm drift too far back, much like loerting in his thread running parallel with this.

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    #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs

    I think it's homemade out of resistance bands. I have looked on TT webstores and never found one. I would buy one for myself if there is a commercial version. I tend to let my upper arm drift too far back, much like loerting in his thread running parallel with this.

    I am fairly sure it is originally used in tennis. Can't remember where I last saw it online but a lady used to use it at my old TT club.

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    #293
    Quote Originally Posted by loerting

    I have never thought of that in giving up angles, but it makes sense. I guess I developed the habit of playing further back because I am relatively slow (you can see me block often or move backwards to compensate) and don't anticipate enough, or I don't go back into ready position immediately after the strokes, I don't know. I am also playing H3 Neo on FH, and its counter game from the back is really fun to use. In the training i don't miss those balls that much (because I know the playwise of my partners), but I will definitely have to focus on playing more towards the table.

    The errors from mis-reading and not anticipating the ball improve with time as you get better, in fact, those are some very telling signs to look for to determine if someone improved from before.

    I play now both at the table (preferred) and away (love to do those nice mid distance looping) (I am actually better quality overall on those shots compared to my play level) so it is an individual risk consideration. Still, in the training hall, playing closer to the table than you do now will really help you out a year or two later.

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    #294
    Quote Originally Posted by loerting

    Hello Dominik, the player I played plays 1-2 leagues above me and it was much harder to point with my forehand. I am normally more the one-shot finisher than the long rally player, but it was hard to play that way against him. I am not sure what you mean by "getting off your swings" (Bewegungen nicht beenden?), but I know that I am sometimes a bit slow when it comes to switching between FH and BH, which is maybe a side effect of my motions being too long.

    A STRAIGHT handle blade make that transition a lot easier, it is a matter of personal preference. I used to really like only FL handles, but the last few years, I play ST handles almost exclusively.

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    #295
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel

    The key to table tennis improvement is almost always the backswing and the preparation to get to the backswing.

    Worth highlighting.

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    #296
    Quote Originally Posted by loerting
    User IB66 recommended me to post this here. (Old thread: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...long-backswing )
    I think my forehand stroke is too long and that I rotate my upper body too much on the backswing (my blade can be seen on the opposite side). I also open the angle between upper arm and forearm too much (backswing). Especially on counter topspin I can see the problem

    Check out this match of me playing (I'm blue guy): 1:38
    What are your thoughts on this, do you notice any other technical problems? Are there any tricks that can help me get the correct execution in my subconsciousness, or do I just have to train it very often?
    Hi Loerting a lot of good comments already

    Here are mine

    (+) FH has good power with full swing

    (+) good touch, especially with BH. Good spin. One excellent sidespin BH block winner. the FH push going down the line is a good shot too.

    (-) a lot of BH push miss on receive. really with the BH drive that you have you shouldn't be pushing these balls in the first place.
    I think the reason why you are missing is your stance should be a little wider, and eyes lower.
    you make sometimes similar miss when doing BH drive too. when the stance is good, its a very good BH.

    (-) you make quite a lot of misses when blocking or counter loops with BH, because the timing is completely off. You swing too early and far away from you
    be patient, watch the bounce closely and swing only after the bounce, perhaps with a more compact stroke.
    Same timing problem with FH counter

    (-) when the ball is wide to the FH, your stance should be wider and you should really use power from your right leg, (and your body rotation) to push forward to the ball and also a bit on the left to get back into position. if you can't use your leg power a bit far from the table, its impossible to make a good shot, better to use a later timing to get into a better position and fish the ball.

    Last edited by Takkyu_wa_inochi; 04-25-2022 at 07:34 AM. Reason: formatting

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    #297
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    I am fairly sure it is originally used in tennis. Can't remember where I last saw it online but a lady used to use it at my old TT club.

    So purely coincidentally Duke posted on the other thread about the long backswing with a product he has recently ordered - looks like what we are looking for so I have ordered one I think (not simple)

    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...25/1%20png.png

    Check out the other thread for details on superbuy, which is what I posted this link into to place an order.


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    #298
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    So purely coincidentally Duke posted on the other thread about the long backswing with a product he has recently ordered - looks like what we are looking for so I have ordered one I think (not simple)

    https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/for...25/1%20png.png

    Check out the other thread for details on superbuy, which is what I posted this link into to place an order.

    I just wanted to update anybody interested - I just received my "FH arm fixer" from Superbuy in less than 2 weeks to the UK - product looks great and quality is good.


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    Gozo's Avatar
    Gozo is offline
    says May the Spin be with you!
     
    Senior TTD Member 661 409
    #299
    Hi everyone,
    It has been two months since I last upload my video. The above is my FH drive.

  20. Gozo is offline
    says May the Spin be with you!
     
    Senior TTD Member 409 661
    Gozo's Avatar
    Gozo is offline
    says May the Spin be with you!
     
    Senior TTD Member 661 409
    #300
    My BH to FH transition. Still not up to my own expectation. I should be able to do this much more smoothly.

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