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  1. Littledragonman7 is offline
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    #401

    Tactical Intelligence

    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    I just got done talking with a local player who MIGHT be willing to post a few vids here and ask for specific tactical things going on and effective adjustments to get opponent to play worse and to get self playing higher percentage less errors less opponent winners.

    I emphasized that it is MUCH EASIER to get opponent to play worse than it is for self to suddenly play MVP great. I emphasized that it is MUCH more profitable to seek out the reasons why self is playing bad, avoid/minimize those, and find out what can and will make opponent play worse... and focus on those adjustments that get self there.

    I may help him in person in this regard, but I also recommended this thread to see a wider perspective and see different views of effective adjustments and recognizing things going on. He records some matches and I advised to always examine footage to look for why both players lost points and go from there.

    One thing my local player identified from a recent tourney is an adjustment opponent made (from advise of a 2000 level friend helping that opponent) is that the local player wis winning on 3rd ball FH topspin, so 2000 player/advisor told his friend to push 2nd ball deep to BH corner to take away FH attack... that instantly made the local player play worse. That is one example of live in game tactical intelligence and an effective adjustment. Sometimes you see it yourself, sometimes a coach must tell you.

    Please support my friend if/when he posts here.
    Hi Der_Echte,

    I like the terminology "Tactical Intelligence" and can relate to your local plyr

    For some reason - when win loss points are scored, I lose the ability to think tactically. It's as if my brain is frozen in negative degree Fahrenheit. Much of my training is left behind in the tool bag.

    From your post, I will try keeping it simple at my next match. I will practice asking myself what is causing the other losing points (missing shots) and what am I doing that is winning points

    I believe these two questions are good starting points in developing my tactical intelligence

    Best wishes to the local plyr & I 👍




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    #402
    Well, LD7, you are 30% towards being able to post a vid, maybe you can talk real bad about Der_Echte on the Chit-Chat thread, call him sum bad names or something a few times, then before you know it, you can post pics and vids on TTD, so good folk not named Der_Echte can give you pertinent advice, instead of me, who might be talking backwards to you.

    I would like to see you be able to post here and have good reputable folk tell you like it is.
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  3. Gozo is offline
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    #403
    Tonight's practice, i.e., me doing FH loop against a chopper using LP-OX. The chopper is a wee bit camera shy.

    Please critic for my betterment. Thank you.

    NB: For this exercise tonight I am using Andro's Rasenter R48 on my FH side.

    p/s below is a 30 secs short highlight clips for those who prefer not to go through the 5 mins raw footage.
    6 July 2022 - YouTube


    Last edited by Gozo; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:23 AM.

  4. Lula is offline
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    #404
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    Tonight's practice, i.e., me doing FH loop against a chopper using LP-OX. The chopper is a wee bit camera shy.

    Please critic for my betterment. Thank you.

    NB: For this exercise tonight I am using Andro's Rasenter R48 on my FH side.

    Sometime you the forearm very nice. Need to move forearn. Since you have very open angle you do not need to accelerate so much and if you do you probably will miss the table. Easier to open against backspin with an open angle, but using a bit more closed angle force you to practice using the forearm.

    I still think you hit the ball a bit behind you. Against topspin it will be hard. Try doing bh bh and then let the opponent play towars your forehand without you knowing. Can do the same but with fh fh. If you never get to this ball you probably are hitting behind you too much.

    Seems like the ball is going on the table and that is most importantly. Keep up the training!


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    #405
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula

    Sometime you the forearm very nice. Need to move forearn. Since you have very open angle you do not need to accelerate so much and if you do you probably will miss the table. Easier to open against backspin with an open angle, but using a bit more closed angle force you to practice using the forearm.

    I still think you hit the ball a bit behind you. Against topspin it will be hard. Try doing bh bh and then let the opponent play towars your forehand without you knowing. Can do the same but with fh fh. If you never get to this ball you probably are hitting behind you too much.

    Seems like the ball is going on the table and that is most importantly. Keep up the training!

    Looking back at my own video I am somehow unsatisfied with my FH loop. It looks awkward and not pretty although a high percentage of my balls did land on the other side. ( I believe if you look at the video, the chopper has more trouble returning my loop than I top-spin back his chops). I feel that I am using too much forearm power and very little foot work to lift the ball. That is why there are some that went over too long. I have more over long balls than balls going into the net. My trouble seem to be more of over looping rather than under-looping.

    @Lula,

    1. If I were to squat lower and use more leg power instead of only arm-swing, while maintaining my racquet open angle, will I eliminate the over shoot problem. I have this psychological fear that if I close my racquet angle, the ball will not go over.
    2. As for the hitting behind problem, will it be solve by moving further away from the table or hitting the ball later as in let the ball drop further to the ground first?
    3. For point No. 2, I recall seeing a YT video of Kim Taek Soo telling his student to loop underspin ball at lower position to make a higher loopier stroke for that extra safety margin especially one is still an amateur rather than professional. My coach also concur with KTS' advise. As a guide, KTS put a ball collection basket on the table and told his student that the loop must go over that basket.
    Last edited by Gozo; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:17 AM.

  6. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #406
    Gozo,

    Try and finish your stroke in front of your head.
    not on the side.

    It is obvious you are hitting the ball way too parallel to your body - as what Lulu has also touched on.

    Few motions I would like to point out:
    1) step onto your right foot, to find the position where you want to plant your full body weight on (kind of lean towards that right foot with your weight)
    2) then do your back swing and lift the ball (this part I think you are okay)
    3) then finish the stroke in front of your head - meaning you are hitting forward and not only upwards.
    4) at this time, you also transferring the body weight from your right foot into the center of your body - by lifting it up with the arm rotation. You can push out from your right knee while you are doing the shot.

    Very important is number 1, as you need to start well balanced onto that right foot.
    Right now, some balls, you not even moving and going too upright.

    And then number 3 is to finish in the right spot, so you creating a forward movement.

    here is a video to help you see where 3 is:

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    Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:00 PM.
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  7. Der_Echte is offline
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    #407

    As a guide, KTS put a ball collection basket on the table and told his student that the loop must go over that basket.

    For looping vs underspin, this would be my default mindset (assuming a slowish, kinda lowish incoming long underspin. I prefer to spin first and ask questions later. Heavy spin (I mean extra super duper heavy spin) and slow speed balls are surprisingly difficult for even 2400 level players to attack over 50%... and 2000 level players will block those out all day long... you just need that player to give you lots of chances to strike those kind of balls... but that level of player will put you on a reduced lunch budget in that area, so you end up not hitting too many of those.

    MANY modern coaches... heck, just about EVERY one of them I see will not advocate for the slow heavy topspin... it is ALWAYS a strong response... powerloop or hit... never a safer slower heavy ball. Kid gets chewed out by coach for even thinking to hit those. Attack first attack strong is what is communicated.
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  8. Der_Echte is offline
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    #408
    @Littledragon7 you now have enough posts to embed a vid... the PLAY looking symbol with a circle and a play symbol inside is the button from the toolbar to hit and paste the youtube link to embed a vid in a post.

    You have a LOT of really perceptive people who are authorized to comment on this thread.

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  9. Gozo is offline
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    #409
    MANY modern coaches... heck, just about EVERY one of them I see will not advocate for the slow heavy topspin... it is ALWAYS a strong response... powerloop or hit... never a safer slower heavy ball. Kid gets chewed out by coach for even thinking to hit those. Attack first attack strong is what is communicated.
    My personal coach also advocate a higher arch loop similar in context to Kim Taek Soo's advise to his amateur student in some YT video. However when KTS trains Jang Woojin ( in another YT video ) I see a different type of FH topspin against underspin. They are long, low, speedy and powerful. I guess there are one type of topspin for amateur level and then there are topspin for pro level.

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    #410
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    Gozo,

    Try and finish your stroke in front of your head.
    not on the side.

    It is obvious you are hitting the ball way too parallel to your body - as what Lulu has also touched on.

    Few motions I would like to point out:
    1) step onto your right foot, to find the position where you want to plant your full body weight on (kind of lean towards that right foot with your weight)
    2) then do your back swing and lift the ball (this part I think you are okay)
    3) then finish the stroke in front of your head - meaning you are hitting forward and not only upwards.
    4) at this time, you also transferring the body weight from your right foot into the center of your body - by lifting it up with the arm rotation. You can push out from your right knee while you are doing the shot.

    Very important is number 1, as you need to start well balanced onto that right foot.
    Right now, some balls, you not even moving and going too upright.

    And then number 3 is to finish in the right spot, so you creating a forward movement.

    here is a video to help you see where 3 is:

    Thanks Tony. Will try to do what you advise when I have a chance. Choppers are a dying breed of player. It is not easy to get hold of a chopper player in a recreational club. Most Long-Pips player 99% uses LP on their BH for blocks mainly.

    When I looked back at my own FH loop against chopped ball video, it looked very awkward and clumsy and very forced.

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  11. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #411
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo


    When I looked back at my own FH loop against chopped ball video, it looked very awkward and clumsy and very forced.

    Part of that is because the arm and the body are not in sync a lot of the time. In the video vs the pips, as you are trying to loop backspin, you are using a lot of arm while your body is not really in position for the shot.

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    #412
    It's not useful to adjust your technique when you loop off the table vs chop. You read more backspin than there was. If you were always playing into the net then you have a technique problem.

    But to think "I will get the technique right and then never miss." is only a fantasy. The whole challenge vs chop is to read the spin and adjust your stroke to it. The right technique is slightly different every ball. Watch the ball, listen to his contact, watch his swing speed and whether Whis wrist.is locked or whippy, remember how much spin you sent over on your shot, and watch the ball some more. If you know how much spin is coming and get your feet into.position you will seldom miss. And when you can't get your feet set to play a forehand then you push back.

    That said, your stroke could be different. You are taking the ball late for where you are standing. You could take it slightly earlier as others said, so you can play a little forward and not only up. Or.you could take a step back and let the ball fall below the table and lift it back up. That's not what I would suggest but it works. Either way, your timing is a bit late. Either start earlier or move away to give yourself more time.

    And your shoulder is doing a lot of the work. It's counterintuitive but actually easier to lift chops using almost all elbow motion. For reference check out my all-time favorite pro player's anti-chop technique.
    https://youtu.be/ab6zk2JL4B8

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  13. Gozo is offline
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    #413
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    Part of that is because the arm and the body are not in sync a lot of the time. In the video vs the pips, as you are trying to loop backspin, you are using a lot of arm while your body is not really in position for the shot.

    For those who are still procrastinating about video-taping oneself as a tool for improvement, I say wait no longer. During my stroke I thought as my ball land on the other side, I am all good. That is until I watched my own video and saw how ugly my techniques were. I should have a more efficient way to produce the strokes.

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    #414
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    For those who are still procrastinating about video-taping oneself as a tool for improvement, I say wait no longer. During my stroke I thought as my ball land on the other side, I am all good. That is until I watched my own video and saw how ugly my techniques were. I should have a more efficient way to produce the strokes.
    Please share the videos here. So that we can learn together sifu

    Que
    Que?

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    #415
    Quote Originally Posted by urbanzakapa
    Please share the videos here. So that we can learn together sifu

    Que

    He already did several posts above and posts regularly to this thread


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    #416
    Gozo,

    Yout left foot needs to be spun a bit more so that your chest faces the ball when you loop underspin. That is what I would work on so your body turns and not just your arm.
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  17. Gozo is offline
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    #417
    Quote Originally Posted by NextLevel
    Gozo,

    Yout left foot needs to be spun a bit more so that your chest faces the ball when you loop underspin. That is what I would work on so your body turns and not just your arm.

    Thanks to all who gave their feedback. Like I said before, choppers are a rare breed and I have no idea when I'll get a chance to pull some chops again.

    Btw, I will compete in another inter-club friendly this coming Sun, 24th Jul 2022. Time to put in what I learn into practice, from theory to practical. Will post videos if it is available and consent obtained.

    Last edited by Gozo; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:49 AM.

  18. Der_Echte is offline
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    #418
    Look for LDM7 to post a vid soon...
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    #419
    I am LDM7, a USATT 1200 player

    I have been honing my Pinga Ponga skills (lessons) since Jan 2021

    This is my first video post (12:13) of a round robin match, losing 2 - 3

    Seeking input on 1 ~ 3 things that I did to make the other uncomfortable or losing points and 1 ~ 3 things I should have recognized or adjusted better so I lost less points

    Thank you for helping me improve!


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    #420
    I am not allowed to make comment in this thread, but I just want to thank you for sharing your footage for everyone benefit. It is not easy to do it, but you have done very well.

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