Video Footage Safe Thread

says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
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I like what I heard Gonzo

I do not recall any specific TT drills or how to "randomly" practice

Do you have a "sequence" or an example of random practice?

Thanks man!

Hi LDM7, when you served medium depth and I pushed underspin long to a place I did not tell you or a place you did not expect, that is random.

Once you have the base skill of landing 80% plus when you KNOW where the ball is coming, it is a profit for you to get the ball in an un-announced placement. That gets you to develop the other "Unmentioned" TT skills of reading an opponent's bat and impact to figure out where the ball is going, what it has on it (spin - amount/type) when it will get to a certain spot and how you can get to that spot on time to establish hte strike zone.

Gesundheit. I just said a lot, but these things are common to every shot and preparation in our sport - a very important skill to develop. The better you get at that skill, the better your level gets, regardless of any further improvement in your ball striking technique. The better you get to the spot on time on balance with leverage ready to strike, you will make less errors and have a better quality attack or defense.

What I just described is a huge part of why Random Practice can develop a player. As with everything, you go as far as your base techniques allow... but pure ball striking is only one aspect of what contributes to a quality shot. Being able to get there and know what is on the ball and being able to be leveraged and decisive counts a lot more that just pure ball striking ability.
 
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Hi Next Level:

How long have you been playing for
=> since January 2021

what are your TT goals?
=> USATT rating 1400 by the end of 2022
=> identify weakest areas of my game & improve so they are not so glaring
=> identify strengths, improve to super strong, dependable at 10 - 9; also hide my weakness (or off-set)

LDM7

I suspected you hadnt played long but wasn't sure. I think a lot of your improvement will come as you play more. The biggest thing is to continue to add more spin and ball control to your game and to read thr game faster and faster and those things come with playing more and more against players at all levels up to 1600 (which I think you are quite capable of).

About USATT rating: if you play a lot of tournaments (not sure how many opportunities are available on the TT scene these days), you desensitize yourself to rating changes.

Finally in response to your original question:
1. Try to hold the table and block rather than back up to defend.
2. When you practice watch your stance. You need time to reset your feet to play both forehands and backhands and this is making you play slower. Try to play more shots using a similar stance for both forehand and backhand so you can play quicker and closer to the table. It will involve some lower body use if you are fit enough. If not dont over think it.
3. It is important to develop tactical thinking yo optimize your match play but depending on your level and play style and ceiling, it can be dangerous to focus too much on tactical play when you dont have good standard technique on both sides. The biggest room for improvement is to develop a more aggressive backhand block game.

Obviously your pushes sometimes bothered your opponent but as you get better tbr pushes have to get better and most people will serve stuff that if you push it, you may struggle. So there is a balancing act between what you do now that troubles opponents and what you need to learn to do that troubles opponents.

So I think the biggest thing is ultimately to play more. and improve your blocking play and backhand offense.. I think the rest will take care of itself.

 
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heLL0 NextLevel:

Thanks for taking the time to correspond & give me pointers

I have the following questions & thoughts


The biggest thing is to continue to add more spin and ball control to your game
=> i am telling myself ...instead of just putting the ball back on the table, if i can make contact with the ball, then i can do something with the ball e.g. "add more spin"
=> not sure about ball control part ...


read thr game faster and faster
=> could you clarify what read the game faster and faster mean?
=> is there any exercise to help me improve in this area?


Try to play more shots using a similar stance for both forehand and backhand so you can play quicker and closer to the table
=> just to make sure ... are you suggesting practice & be comfortable with hitting a shot out of stance e.g. FH loop with right foot in front (i am right handed)?

1. Try to hold the table and block rather than back up to defend
=> truth that NL, i get intimidated when someone attack me, natural instinct is backing up to defend
=> i will move the table with 3' behind me and have someone smashing the balls at me (block) to get use to not backing up


2. When you practice watch your stance. You need time to reset your feet to play both forehands and backhands and this is making you play slower. It will involve some lower body use if you are fit enough. If not dont over think it
=> i believe i am fit enough ... i'm not sure i know how to playing fh & bh using the same stance

3. The biggest room for improvement is to develop a more aggressive backhand block game
=> for drills (known), i am fine executing BH blocks; during games (random, unknown) i tend to back up or lose quality & placement
=> will practice serving long, partner loop to my BH & me BH block (no backing up)

good day!

 
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I suspected you hadnt played long but wasn't sure. I think a lot of your improvement will come as you play more. The biggest thing is to continue to add more spin and ball control to your game and to read thr game faster and faster and those things come with playing more and more against players at all levels up to 1600 (which I think you are quite capable of).

About USATT rating: if you play a lot of tournaments (not sure how many opportunities are available on the TT scene these days), you desensitize yourself to rating changes.

Finally in response to your original question:
1. Try to hold the table and block rather than back up to defend.
2. When you practice watch your stance. You need time to reset your feet to play both forehands and backhands and this is making you play slower. Try to play more shots using a similar stance for both forehand and backhand so you can play quicker and closer to the table. It will involve some lower body use if you are fit enough. If not dont over think it.
3. It is important to develop tactical thinking yo optimize your match play but depending on your level and play style and ceiling, it can be dangerous to focus too much on tactical play when you dont have good standard technique on both sides. The biggest room for improvement is to develop a more aggressive backhand block game.

Obviously your pushes sometimes bothered your opponent but as you get better tbr pushes have to get better and most people will serve stuff that if you push it, you may struggle. So there is a balancing act between what you do now that troubles opponents and what you need to learn to do that troubles opponents.

So I think the biggest thing is ultimately to play more. and improve your blocking play and backhand offense.. I think the rest will take care of itself.

Thanks for bringing that up Next Level. I have stressed these things - that he will grow something, others adjust, then he must grow other things to cope with opponents who are getting better and are adapting. I have also stressed that technical goes along with tactical in that the tactics or only as good as the technical shots allow - they work together.

To help him on that end, I have told LDM7's main opponents in his vids what I am helping him with and how he is troubling them, so they can adapt faster, which will force LDM7 to grow in technical and tactical areas.

Serve receive and pushing are two immediate areas of low hanging fruit kind of improvement for LDM7, but at his level, just about everything is low hanging fruit and improving all areas is needed. There is a give and take in making oneself uncomfortable in order to make strategic growth happen. It is also important to do things that have the player see the ball land - that is where confidence comes from - seeing the ball land and you KNOW it will land.
 
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heLL0 NextLevel:Thanks for taking the time to correspond & give me pointersI have the following questions & thoughts The biggest thing is to continue to add more spin and ball control to your game=> i am telling myself ...instead of just putting the ball back on the table, if i can make contact with the ball, then i can do something with the ball e.g. "add more spin"=> not sure about ball control part ... read thr game faster and faster=> could you clarify what read the game faster and faster mean?=> is there any exercise to help me improve in this area?Try to play more shots using a similar stance for both forehand and backhand so you can play quicker and closer to the table=> just to make sure ... are you suggesting practice & be comfortable with hitting a shot out of stance e.g. FH loop with right foot in front (i am right handed)?1. Try to hold the table and block rather than back up to defend=> truth that NL, i get intimidated when someone attack me, natural instinct is backing up to defend=> i will move the table with 3' behind me and have someone smashing the balls at me (block) to get use to not backing up 2. When you practice watch your stance. You need time to reset your feet to play both forehands and backhands and this is making you play slower. It will involve some lower body use if you are fit enough. If not dont over think it=> i believe i am fit enough ... i'm not sure i know how to playing fh & bh using the same stance3. The biggest room for improvement is to develop a more aggressive backhand block game=> for drills (known), i am fine executing BH blocks; during games (random, unknown) i tend to back up or lose quality & placement=> will practice serving long, partner loop to my BH & me BH block (no backing up)good day!

Speak a bit more personally, TT was very important for me for developing skills that can help with how to think about life with a growth mindset. I started playing in 2011 and thr first rating I got at my first tournament was 563 I think. I lost to two kids and the only person I beat at my first tournament was the wife of the club owner (twice). Maybe if she hadn't shown up I would have had a lower rating.My peak (with a mix of physical issues that ultimately led me to stop playing and take my philosophical learnings from table tennis elsewhere) was around the later half of 2016 and the first half of 2017 after an international coach who I consider a good friend game to the US and I trained with him for a bit. I got to low 2100 at that time. But i already had autoimmune arthritis related issues which started affecting a lot of joints so even though i played some decent matches after that and probably trained harder some periods after that, the steps I took backward in physical health negated the benefits of extra training.

I say this so that you understand that I to some degree empathize with how you feel about some of these things. I pushed every pendulum or tomahawk serve when I started playing because they all looked like backspin to me. I used to lose so badly to 1600 players that I never thought I could be one. When I was 1900, I kept complaining to my coach that I would never.break 2000.The biggest thing that holds most adult learners back is how they interpret the TT improvement process.. They make the issue about results more than process. TT helped me reorient my life philosophy and kept me going through some tough years. May write about it some dayBut the most important thing I try to teach adults is that TT is heavily cognitive as well as athletic. Knowing how to touch the ball to control the epeed and spin is key. Imparting soin is largely a physical and timing thing but it also has a cognitive component. Table Tennis is deceptively simple - it is actually a very complex and difficult activity (as I suspect almost anything meaningful in life is once you do it at a high enough level).To improve at anything difficult as table tennis, you have to find the right balance between technique/process, perseverance and results/mindset. Usually after asking you how long you have played for, the next question should be how many hours a week do you play? Because that also matters a lot.The issue when playing at the 1100 level as a learner as that you are likely very far from developing stable technique and likely even further from having your technical development be at a point where no more progress is possible. But this is wben more true when it comes to your cognitive game. You haven't read enough cues from the opponent to be able to predict where the ball is going or what spin is on it.The reason you back up is that you really don't believe that if you stay at the table and touch the ball that you have a chance of putting it on the table. But the question is why? It is because you think the ball is coming so hard and fast that you have no clue where it is going and you need time. But life is not that unpredictable. If you learn to look for cues but consciously and subconsciously and at the level you play you make your opponent move to the ball or defend your quality shots, you can limit what the opponent will do with the ball. And if you can block you dont have to do much and back up - you stay at the table and use the incoming pace on the ball to return it.But also important is that in TT, we believe we will.miss because we have no experience doing what we think we cannot do. I started out blocking because I only knew how to hold my racket on the ball. I couldn't run around so I just stayed at the table and put my bat there. So for me, feeling I could step back and exchange loops or even lob the ball was the difficult thing. But Rome is not built in a day. You have to train some things, give yourself a chance to fail at them while building them, and then see how good those things get over a period of time. Many of us dont get there because we label ourselves failures at the first hint of struggle.So in general, I would encourage you to just work on *any* sequence you decide can win you points or help you lose less points. Take that sequence from the problems you see in your current games. DerEchte's recommendation of learning to carefully attack back spin and attack the following block is one. But there are infinitely such things at your level depending on how you want to play. You can choose any approach you enjoy. If you want to be a traditional topspin player then learn how they win points. Or even a blocker. Or a chopper. Anything. Just do what you enjoy and learn how to win points doing it.There will always be players who will cause you to struggle. There will always be situations you cannot control. The most important thing is whether you have the time to train and how you interpret the results of your practice and matches. As I played more TT, I realized simply that competitive matches were simply a forum to demonstrate skills built in practice. So I stopped beating myself up for not being able to do in a match what I never practiced.Playing forehand and backhand in the same stance - the basic stance is either left foot slightly in front of right or both almost level. Practice one forehand one backhand close to the table. Most of the effort will come from how you position the legs or move the legs to play foreheads (forehand should be played with a slight twist/lunge of the left foot/core) but you shouldn't be putting the right foot in front of the left to play a backhand unless you know it is a killer backhand.(but that hegs the question with so much time why you didn't just play a killer forehand but it happens). If your shots aren't great, the issue is usually how much time it took you to get into a position to play then. But if you dont back up that much you can borrow more incoming pace and prepare with a shorter movement. Just realize the preparation comes with the legs and the core on both sides, not the arm. Preparing with the upper arm is the cause of most issues in table tennis.If none of the technical details above makes sense dont worry. Just trying to tell you that your experience is not that special for someone who started playing and you will improve quite a bit no matter what happens as long as you continue playing. Just dont make your learning a misery like I did in my.early.days by thinking that you dont need to use the information from failure to get better. As a late great coach once told me, the stroke that hit the ball of the table in one situation could be the one you needed to put the ball.on the table in another situation. Dont make it all.about you other than your responsibility to put in the time and training.

 
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says 2023 Certified Organ Donor
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Emperor of Rome said:
But this is even more true when it comes to your cognitive game. You haven't read enough cues from the opponent to be able to predict where the ball is going or what spin is on it...

But Rome is not built in a day. You have to train some things, give yourself a chance to fail at them while building them, and then see how good those things get over a period of time. Many of us don't get there because we label ourselves failures at the first hint of struggle...

Playing forehand and backhand in the same stance - the basic stance is either left foot slightly in front of right or both almost level. Practice one forehand one backhand close to the table. Most of the effort will come from how you position the legs or move the legs to play foreheads

Next Level be dropping huge truth bombs on TT Daily. He knows I think like this and hopefully, I articulated this (and continue to do so) to LDM7
 
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Next Level be dropping huge truth bombs on TT Daily. He knows I think like this and hopefully, I articulated this (and continue to do so) to LDM7

You're an adult learner. We are in many ways a different breed. When you learn at a time when you have logic and language, you don't see things as skills developed over years of failures and successes, you deceive yourself that you are either good (talented) or bad (untalented). TT is a chance to reframe that perspective as long as you put in the work. That's the main reason my kid will do something like TT even if not TT, so they can see the incremental result of dedication over a long period of time. Honestly, as a kid, other than school, I never had anything quite like it and I think that was a mistake.

 
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You're an adult learner. We are in many ways a different breed. When you learn at a time when you have logic and language, you don't see things as skills developed over years of failures and successes, you deceive yourself that you are either good (talented) or bad (untalented). TT is a chance to reframe that perspective as long as you put in the work. That's the main reason my kid will do something like TT even if not TT, so they can see the incremental result of dedication over a long period of time. Honestly, as a kid, other than school, I never had anything quite like it and I think that was a mistake.

At the risk of overwriting again, another example:

Recently, Mizutani was talking about the need for the upcoming Japanese talent to leave Japan and go and play in European leagues. That playing in too comfortable circumstances without the pressure of being away from home, travelling to radically different playing conditions for food etc. didn't make the upcoming players strong enough under pressure. Zeio posted about this on mytt.

Baal made the interesting point that this is a lesson that generally applies to everyone's TT. And of course, I could write about when I played a lot of tournaments and travelled to different places just to learn to adapt to new circumstances and players.

So you realize that in some ways, even the better players go through the same stuff adult learners go through, just at a different level. Life is just the same old sh*t. Could go on about this but I am sure the example is clear enough.

 
says Buttefly Forever!!!
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Inter-club friendly today. Actual game-play starts at 3mins mark. My opponent is an academy trained twenty-something player. Due to to many players and time constraint, the Captain from the two clubs decided to play best of 3 match. He is not that consistent himself probably he is now in university and not under the program anymore.

I didn't played to the best of my ability today. I found myself probably intimidated by his serves and that messes up my confidence and rhythm. Not one of my best match I must say.
 
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Hi Gozo,

You correct said your opponent is inconsistent. He is very wild and willing to give you free points, but you must take some points from him too to win.

You did not setup and take many points from him, plus you gave him a large number of points for free. He appreciates the donation I am sure.

TT is an exercise of risk assessment and risk mitigation along with accepting risks and getting a reward. Your attacking shots were mostly from a poor position with poor stance out of the strike zone. A player will miss many attacks doing that.

The number one thing you did to miss points on your attacks was that you came out of your crouch stance too early... when you do that and the ball is low, like table height, it is difficult to get leverage and make your shot. 4:24... 4:38... 5:16... 6:06... 6:53 are some examples from game 1. That alone is 5 points you gave away for free. A lot of it is that you do not yet have the habit of staying crouched, some of it is fitness and weight. You might be doing OK in some drills in training, but a match is a different animal. It takes 6 months to a year plus to improve in match performance the things you improve in training. It is simply the situation of TT development.

Some of it is also being able to read what the opponent is doing, seeing the impact, knowing what is possible, watching the impact and the ball from impact, how it flies, the speed and angle, the sound of impact... these things tell you when/where/how the ball is going... from that data you move yourself (and the strike zone) to meet that ball and be crouched ready at point of impact. It is a fundamental skill of table tennis. When you improve in this, you will certainly be able to be in position better with more confidence. When you are in position ready, crouched, leveraged with a plan to attack, you easily experience more success.

Later, you develop skills to read opponent... knowing if his feet are out of position (to jam his middle and watch him miss attacks), knowing if he is out of crouch (and push to his middle or wide and watch him fail in his attack and get angrier like Angry Birds)... reading opponent's tendencies, like if opponent gets too inside of ball for position regularly (then you know ball is coming cross - not inside out...

You have to know what is possible and probable to setup and execute your attacks. At 8:10, you got a ball to your BH that would have been a good candidate for a BH loop drive IF you were ready... but you were not ready... you wanted to attack it, but you did not read where the that long serve was going... it came a little towards your middle... you were not in position with leverage to attack it... you realized this too late and did a weak chicken wing bh underspin return that went out. You COULD HAVE seen the ball coming to the middle and if you were determined (or committed by foot position) to do a BH, then you could have taken a 40 cm step to your right (and land closer to the endline)... now ball is in the strike zone and if you were crouched enough, you could have BH looed this ball anywhere you wanted.

You were often committed with your feet in an extreme BH stance, often too far to you FH... that makes it almost impossible to attack with FH and your BH attack zone is smaller than you think.. An example is at 7:47...:you went to your FH side past center line to serve a BH serve, you got a long underspin return long right to the centerline deep near the endline... this should be a prime candidate for a high percentage attack... but you had your feet set up wrong, your right foot was WAY in front... you kind corrected it kinda late, then you stuck it out way in front again... you were also one meter behind the table right after your serve, if you want to play a BH attack without moving, the ball must come perfectly to your position... it didn't... you declined the attack and hit the ball into the net on your underspin return. You were too far from the table to play a BH loop vs underspin. You should be closer to the table for those and impact the ball within 30 cm of the endline if not closer.

These are all things you can pay attention to in training and with time and more match experience fix. It is easy to get discouraged not being able to perform in matches like you do in practice, but it is a reality and a part of how it all works. Stay positive and look for your signs of overcoming... are you crouching more and better, are you in position more often, are you seeing the ball and impact better, are you seeing opponent better...are you positioned at the table appropriately for the shot yo want and where you want it...
 
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In my modest opinion, Gozo, you played really well, but as DerEchte pointed out in a different language from what I will use, you haven't played enough TT to understand and appreciate the limitations of your technique and athleticism as you try to hit the ball so hard it doesn't come back and when it does, you are not in position for the next ball. You really need to play a brush spin game where you hope that your opponent will be troubled by the quality of your rotation for a few reasons:

1) It gives you time to watch the play evolve and reduces the demands on your athleticism.
2) It makes opponents who aren't used to it hesitate.
3) It makes you more consistent and doesn't require extreme movement.

Your current approach is too flat and requires too much upper arm usage to get power. The speed of the game puts too much pressure on your movement. In the second game, your opponent made some good spin shots. You made one or two in the match, but I still think that you probably hit that ball too hard and didn't focus enough on rotation.

I remember when I first started play, my late great coach used to tell me to stop hitting the ball so hard that I didn't want opponents to touch it, that a time would come when when I would hit the ball right to where a certain level of player was waiting for the ball and they would miss it completely regardless. He used to tell me that Timo Boll would loop the ball to me, not away from me, because he had no fear that I would do something he couldn't handle and his spin would lead to my missing every block. This is exactly how you should try and build your game, I just hope you have the right coach to teach you this style. Trying to hit the ball as hard as you can when the opportunity arises is a rookie TT mistake that prevents you from developing the ability to hit the ball with easy power. Unfortunately, some coaches think this approach is bad because they think it builds bad habits for the higher levels so they train most young learners to hit with power. I disagree for a few reasons, I think this is the best way to play and learn and that you can add power later by making certain contacts thicker. I agree that the brush spin game is not as effective with the new ball, but where I disagree is that I don't think there is any serious alternative for an adult learner to get better. All the other approaches require too much effort and have too much risk/training tied to them.

The biggest thing I think you need to learn to do is relax and whip your wrist (not with effort or to cause yourself wrist problems, but by finding out how to play strokes and serves that feel like you are tossing a frisbee or hammering a nail or slashing a rope with a sword). If you don't feel that your grip enables you to toss your racket like a frisbee on both forehand and backhand, especially on backhand, then your racket grip is costing you a lot of racket head speed and is probably too stiff/tight. You don't have to use that extra degree of motion consciously, but it has to exist as a backup for more speed. Usually, when you have that degree of freedom you miss a lot in the beginning and that is when practice teaches you to control it. When I look at your game, a lot of your serves are too stiff and don't let the wrist move.

The next thing is to resist the temptation to hit any ball with power and to focus exclusively on getting as much rotation as you can on every stroke. When you serve, try to get as much backspin as possible.
When you topspin, don't try to flatten out the ball or hit the ball through the table, just try to make the ball rotate as much as possible. This is the fastest way for an adult learner to improve. When you get more rotation and less pace, a lot of what I am saying will make more sense to you. You will be able to control and frustrate opponents more and you will be able to get balls to block and not feel rushed by the action.

Start slow, focus on brushing/turning/rotating the ball. Avoid flat/hard contact. Master spin timing. It is the fastest way for an adult to master and improve in TT. If you manage to do it with your serves, then transfer that feeling to all your strokes. I repeat, it is the fastest way for an adult learner to improve in TT.
 
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First of, thanks to DER & NL for their invaluable input. I am putting my thoughts here for posterity and as a reminder to my future myself on why I perform the way I did.

I am writing now with some angry emotion against myself. I looked back at the video and I found myself doing so many unforced error that DER has kindly pointed out. Why am I angry at myself?

1. On Friday night during my last practice session before this game, I asked three higher level player to play simulation games with me. I won all of them 3-2, although they gave me a five point advantage to even up the game.

2. On the actual game day itself, I arrived one and half hour earlier to play with another higher level player just to warm-up and get myself into a game mindset. I was playing well against the higher level with me being able to hit my usual FH drives and BH open ups within normal expectation.

So it was not due to the lack of preparation. I prepared myself well, mentality and physically. I slept early on that night and listened to some soothing music prior to going to bed.

Now I will ask myself why did I perform so badly.

I think it all boils down to the mental aspect. I was troubled by his serves. His reverse pendulum troubles me. Why is it troubling you may ask, it is just the reverse spin of the regular pendulum serves isn't it? Well, the problem with it is, his action is just like that of a regular pendulum serves, but just at the last one second of the serves, his wrist change direction and make a reverse version. This really mess up my stance, my anticipation and preparedness. Many times I caught myself, being confused by this sudden change in spin direction. When your mind is messed up, this leads to your body become disorientated and this leads to all the symptoms of clumsy movement you see in the video.

Granted, in my club, no player serve reverse pendulum regularly. Some did attempt but none are able to do it well. I do not meet high quality reverse pendulum server.

To NL,

Mentally I did tell myself to impart more spin in my shot and I can when I am in a good position. It again all boil down to my slow or disoriented response to his unusual serves ( at least for me ).

p/s Playing a best-of-3 match is also a bummer. Before I could adjust mentally to all the variation, the match is already over.

p/p/s: Next competition is in mid-Oct22. So plenty of time for me to work on these issues above with my coach. Hopefully I can fix them for future betterment.
 
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First of, thanks to DER & NL for their invaluable input. I am putting my thoughts here for posterity and as a reminder to my future myself on why I perform the way I did.

I am writing now with some angry emotion against myself. I looked back at the video and I found myself doing so many unforced error that DER has kindly pointed out. Why am I angry at myself?

1. On Friday night during my last practice session before this game, I asked three higher level player to play simulation games with me. I won all of them 3-2, although they gave me a five point advantage to even up the game.

2. On the actual game day itself, I arrived one and half hour earlier to play with another higher level player just to warm-up and get myself into a game mindset. I was playing well against the higher level with me being able to hit my usual FH drives and BH open ups within normal expectation.

So it was not due to the lack of preparation. I prepared myself well, mentality and physically. I slept early on that night and listened to some soothing music prior to going to bed.

Now I will ask myself why did I perform so badly.

I think it all boils down to the mental aspect. I was troubled by his serves. His reverse pendulum troubles me. Why is it troubling you may ask, it is just the reverse spin of the regular pendulum serves isn't it? Well, the problem with it is, his action is just like that of a regular pendulum serves, but just at the last one second of the serves, his wrist change direction and make a reverse version. This really mess up my stance, my anticipation and preparedness. Many times I caught myself, being confused by this sudden change in spin direction. When your mind is messed up, this leads to your body become disorientated and this leads to all the symptoms of clumsy movement you see in the video.

Granted, in my club, no player serve reverse pendulum regularly. Some did attempt but none are able to do it well. I do not meet high quality reverse pendulum server.

To NL,

Mentally I did tell myself to impart more spin in my shot and I can when I am in a good position. It again all boil down to my slow or disoriented response to his unusual serves ( at least for me ).

p/s Playing a best-of-3 match is also a bummer. Before I could adjust mentally to all the variation, the match is already over.
Gozo,

The one thing I will accept without any pushback in what you wrote is that best of 3 is a bummer.

The rest, all I will say is that as you compete more and get more perspective, you will get better at all this. Competitive matches are not the same as practice matches especially practice matches without stakes and with people you are familiar with. Serves are unfortunately part of the game, and they are a part of the game that usually distinguishes more advanced players from less advanced players (as does serve return), even more than rally skills. Those good players that you had 3-2 matches with, play them the same odds matches and tell them that whoever wins gets $5 or tell them that if they win, they get $5 and if you win, they get nothing. See if there is a difference. Competitive stakes tend to make people play more seriously.

NL
 
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Emperor of Spin said:
...just try to make the ball rotate as much as possible. This is the fastest way for an adult learner to improve. When you get more rotation and less pace, a lot of what I am saying will make more sense to you. You will be able to control and frustrate opponents more and you will be able to get balls to block and not feel rushed by the action.

Start slow, focus on brushing/turning/rotating the ball. Avoid flat/hard contact. Master spin timing. It is the fastest way for an adult to master and improve in TT. If you manage to do it with your serves, then transfer that feeling to all your strokes. I repeat, it is the fastest way for an adult learner to improve in TT.

Damn Next Level be dropping truth bombs all over the place.

LDM7 would confirm in our topspin vs underspin return practice (where I state the objective is to SPIN HEAVY and slow) if I give LDM7 a heavier underspin and he hits or loopdrives the ball, I almost chew him out. Why? The goal is to learn how it feels to spin the ball and know that feeling and be able to repeat it... it is a winning formula. Of course, there are times when it is a better choice to loopdrive, like if the ball is already coming a little high into the strike zone or you have an open angle. There is no single correct answer all the time...

... still, I so firmly believe so much that making heavy spin and being able to produce spin equals control of ball and winning points... one time in the past, I think it was after the first time NL saw me live, he said I had the most pure spin stroke (meaning stroke meant to produce only spin and little speed)... I believe personally in the importance of producing spin on demand that much that I try to do that wherever practical. Even at 3-4 levels above me (IF and that is a BIG if at that level) the opponent gives me a ball to spin, then I spin it and it troubles them to counter - they lose points trying to be macho.

Agree that learning to spin and learning the whip and touch for that is a skill that transfers to serves, underspin, retrieving, lobbing and about any stroke... it is a feel for the ball and is important..

When you KNOW you can spin the ball, if you are close to the table and the ball comes at you heavy underspin and fast/deep on endline, you KNOW you can get down then up with the bounce and spin it forever and win the point. You KNOW it when you can spin, it helps your confidence immensely.
 
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In my modest opinion, Gozo, you played really well, but as DerEchte pointed out in a different language from what I will use, you haven't played enough TT to understand and appreciate the limitations of your technique and athleticism as you try to hit the ball so hard it doesn't come back and when it does, you are not in position for the next ball. You really need to play a brush spin game where you hope that your opponent will be troubled by the quality of your rotation for a few reasons:

1) It gives you time to watch the play evolve and reduces the demands on your athleticism.
2) It makes opponents who aren't used to it hesitate.
3) It makes you more consistent and doesn't require extreme movement.

Your current approach is too flat and requires too much upper arm usage to get power. The speed of the game puts too much pressure on your movement. In the second game, your opponent made some good spin shots. You made one or two in the match, but I still think that you probably hit that ball too hard and didn't focus enough on rotation.

I remember when I first started play, my late great coach used to tell me to stop hitting the ball so hard that I didn't want opponents to touch it, that a time would come when when I would hit the ball right to where a certain level of player was waiting for the ball and they would miss it completely regardless. He used to tell me that Timo Boll would loop the ball to me, not away from me, because he had no fear that I would do something he couldn't handle and his spin would lead to my missing every block. This is exactly how you should try and build your game, I just hope you have the right coach to teach you this style. Trying to hit the ball as hard as you can when the opportunity arises is a rookie TT mistake that prevents you from developing the ability to hit the ball with easy power. Unfortunately, some coaches think this approach is bad because they think it builds bad habits for the higher levels so they train most young learners to hit with power. I disagree for a few reasons, I think this is the best way to play and learn and that you can add power later by making certain contacts thicker. I agree that the brush spin game is not as effective with the new ball, but where I disagree is that I don't think there is any serious alternative for an adult learner to get better. All the other approaches require too much effort and have too much risk/training tied to them.

The biggest thing I think you need to learn to do is relax and whip your wrist (not with effort or to cause yourself wrist problems, but by finding out how to play strokes and serves that feel like you are tossing a frisbee or hammering a nail or slashing a rope with a sword). If you don't feel that your grip enables you to toss your racket like a frisbee on both forehand and backhand, especially on backhand, then your racket grip is costing you a lot of racket head speed and is probably too stiff/tight. You don't have to use that extra degree of motion consciously, but it has to exist as a backup for more speed. Usually, when you have that degree of freedom you miss a lot in the beginning and that is when practice teaches you to control it. When I look at your game, a lot of your serves are too stiff and don't let the wrist move.

The next thing is to resist the temptation to hit any ball with power and to focus exclusively on getting as much rotation as you can on every stroke. When you serve, try to get as much backspin as possible.
When you topspin, don't try to flatten out the ball or hit the ball through the table, just try to make the ball rotate as much as possible. This is the fastest way for an adult learner to improve. When you get more rotation and less pace, a lot of what I am saying will make more sense to you. You will be able to control and frustrate opponents more and you will be able to get balls to block and not feel rushed by the action.

Start slow, focus on brushing/turning/rotating the ball. Avoid flat/hard contact. Master spin timing. It is the fastest way for an adult to master and improve in TT. If you manage to do it with your serves, then transfer that feeling to all your strokes. I repeat, it is the fastest way for an adult learner to improve in TT.

Such a lot of really helpful information in here - very relevant to me too. More spin = more time to get into position for next shot and increased likelihood of getting the ball on the table. Regards underpin and wrist - I have been working on my reverse pendulum serve and using Dan's video on this where he stands square to the table and just focuses on a light brush to get decent underspin - I must have spent 4 hours on this to date hitting 20 balls at a time and am only just getting the frisbee (wrist/arm) movement anywhere near correct and getting balls coming back to the net - it's just so so important to feel this.

Thanks NL.

 

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I am writing now with some angry emotion against myself. I looked back at the video and I found myself doing so many unforced error that DER has kindly pointed out. Why am I angry at myself?

I think it all boils down to the mental aspect. I was troubled by his serves. His reverse pendulum troubles me.

Granted, in my club, no player serve reverse pendulum regularly.

Cut out this stupid angry at myself shit right now. It is not helpful, it is really super destructive.

So you met someone with serves you have not practiced against and you didn't know what to do. Of course not.

All you can take away from this is that it will be good at some point to gain more exposure to reverse serves. Be happy you played the match and started on this process. You did nothing wrong in your preparation, your effort, nothing to be upset about.

If we want to play sport we have to accept losing without anger. Anger will only lead to fear.

 
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Wrighty !!! Your feedback and enthusiasm are also important to LDM7 for this thread and a reason why I introduced him to TTD and this thread's purpose.

Honestly, I learn so much from this thread over the months I have been frequenting it and posting - so often I focus on the technical and miss the nuanced stuff that comes out in this thread - I also understand Gozo's frustration with himself as I also battle with that.

 
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Honestly, I learn so much from this thread over the months I have been frequenting it and posting - so often I focus on the technical and miss the nuanced stuff that comes out in this thread - I also understand Gozo's frustration with himself as I also battle with that.

We've all battled with it in various ways, trust me, I have seen quite a few posters on this thread in the US on their bad days. When BRS writes about this, he is speaking from experience, I won't get into the details as those are for him to share.

That's why I wrote about the fact that my first rating was 563. I used to think 1600 players were amazing at one time and to some degree I still do. I am sure you can search TTD or mytt and find my stories about how as a 1700 player, I lost all my matches on a particular day, including 0-11 to a player who limped. And I asked my junior training partners what I was doing wrong at the behest of our coach. And they told me, "You don't spin the ball." And I protested that I did, and they were like "Not really." And every year or so after that, we would revisit that conversation and laugh hard about it.

So yes, frustration with yourself is part of adult learner TT, don't let the irrationality of it keep you from having the right attitude and perspective to getting better. No one would expect you to be able to solve algebra problems without taking an algebra class, but for some reason, TT players are supposed to know how to return reverse serves perfectly before they even train against them. You can't make this stuff up. It's ultimately a lack of respect for the difficulty of the game, but Table Tennis will humble and humiliate you if you don't respect it. I have crazy stories about serve return - but that will be for another time.

 
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We've all battled with it in various ways, trust me, I have seen quite a few posters on this thread in the US on their bad days. When BRS writes about this, he is speaking from experience, I won't get into the details as those are for him to share.

That's why I wrote about the fact that my first rating was 563. I used to think 1600 players were amazing at one time and to some degree I still do. I am sure you can search TTD or mytt and find my stories about how as a 1700 player, I lost all my matches on a particular day, including 0-11 to a player who limped. And I asked my junior training partners what I was doing wrong at the behest of our coach. And they told me, "You don't spin the ball." And I protested that I did, and they were like "Not really." And every year or so after that, we would revisit that conversation and laugh hard about it.

So yes, frustration with yourself is part of adult learner TT, don't let the irrationality of it keep you from having the right attitude and perspective to getting better. No one would expect you to be able to solve algebra problems without taking an algebra class, but for some reason, TT players are supposed to know how to return reverse serves perfectly before they even train against them. You can't make this stuff up. It's ultimately a lack of respect for the difficulty of the game, but Table Tennis will humble and humiliate you if you don't respect it. I have crazy stories about serve return - but that will be for another time.

It is certainly a game that humbles - I can be building up some self belief and feeling confident about my play and improvements and then go to club night and lose to players I really should be beating purely because they push a lot or play a style that causes me problems - it drives me nuts sometimes!

it’s a conundrum but I love the challenge it presents.

 
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