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  1. hipnotic is offline
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    #1

    Butterfly blades - the whole truth!

    Sorry for the clickbait, I couldn't resist

    ** labels might be misleading, I'm talking about the second layer here, not the core**

    I had this conversation so many times that I decided to write a post about it. If you look at the composition of a Butterfly blade online you will see Limba written all over the place for their second layers. That is incorrect. The truth is that Butterfly doesn’t disclose the composition of their blades, all you see online are just guesses that got passed around, and unfortunately the majority of them are incorrect. Butterfly uses Ayous in the second layer for the majority of their blades, such as Viscaria, TB line, ZJK line, Innerforce, etc… How do I know this? The difference is clear if you know what to look for, but I also saw the inside of some of these blades and proved it myself. There are brands that use Limba, such as Xiom for example, and if you compare a Viscaria with a 36.5 you will see what I mean. Ayous can look like Limba in certain situations, but Limba is unmistakably Limba. First you gotta look at the end grain, which for the second layer will be on the side of the handle. If you look at the bottom of the handle they will look the same. Also, the blade must be new or in good condition, when sweat gets into the handle it makes the grain swell and the wood darker, which hides the characteristics we are looking for. Limba is usually darker than Ayous, that’s a clue, but it may not be the case. The give away are the little diagonal lines you can see on the Ayous layer, which Limba doesn’t have. They are called medullary rays, cellular structures found in some species of wood, what we in the TT world also call the fish scale pattern.

    So, is there a big difference? Not really… If we look at the average density of each wood, Limba is about 1.4x heavier than Ayous. For a normal blade this means 3-4g more. Limba is also about 1.5x harder than Ayous, this will give the blade a slightly harder touch. In the end, all else being equal, a blade with Limba instead of Ayous will feel a little harder, less bouncy, but with more speed potential.

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    Last edited by hipnotic; 01-07-2022 at 04:55 PM.
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  2. vvk1 is offline
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    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic
    Sorry for the clickbait, I couldn't resist 😅

    ...

    So, is there a big difference? Not really… If we look at the average density of each wood, Limba is about 1.4x heavier than Ayous. For a normal blade this means 3-4g more.


    So the inner core of a normal blade (like a viscaria) is 10g or less? Are you sure?

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  3. hipnotic is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by vvk1


    So the inner core of a normal blade (like a viscaria) is 10g or less? Are you sure?

    I didn't say that. I don't know where you got that math from. I said that if you use Limba instead of Ayous you will get 3-4g more. So, all else being equal, an 85g blade would be 88 or 89g.

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    #4
    You did also say that limba is ~ 1.4x heavier than ayous.
    Say x is the weight of an ayous core (in grams).
    Then a limba core weighs x+4.
    (x+4)/x = 1.4
    solving for x gives 10g.

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    #5
    So assuming that the blade weighs 85g how much do the handles and intermediate and top ply weigh. If you say only 4g extra then it must be about 10g

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    #6
    Regarding tb line, I always though that it has kiri as a central layer, do you think it is ayous?

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    #7
    I think we have a lapse in communication here. By medial ply I mean the second ply not the core!

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    #8
    I think the confusion here was the example pic which did show the core...
    (It would have been very difficult to see a difference on any other layer...)

    Cheers
    L-zr
    Steal a little and they throw You in jail, Steal a lot and they make You King... (Dylan)

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    #9
    The pictures show all the layers, they are the same apart from the second layer, and the core is neither Limba or Ayous but Kiri. Nobody uses Limba for cores... Also, some of those blades mentioned have obviously different cores, so I didn't thought there was a reason to be confused.

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    #10
    The pic shows the words "Limba" and "Ayous" smack right in the middle of the core...
    And They do look a bit different, I think here lies the confusion...

    Anyway I never ever heard anybody call the core "medial"...

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    #11
    I had to put the words somewhere... Maybe a little arrow would've helped.

    Yeah, I call it core and so does everyone. As for the medial ply nobody ever mentions it so there is no common term. Maybe medial is not the best one, but second or intermediate doesn't seem right either.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic
    I think we have a lapse in communication here. By medial ply I mean the second ply not the core!

    Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

    Aha, then it makes sense, thanks for the clarification.


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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic
    I had to put the words somewhere... Maybe a little arrow would've helped.

    Yeah, I call it core and so does everyone. As for the medial ply nobody ever mentions it so there is no common term. Maybe medial is not the best one, but second or intermediate doesn't seem right either.

    Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

    Great post. The diagram labels were confusing, though your description of the diagonal medullary rays worked for me. Arrows would help. Also, I think "second wood layer" rather than "medial" would be better.


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    #14
    Updated the post, should be clearer now.

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    #15

    Butterfly blades - the whole truth!

    Core should be obviously the core. How about inner ply? It would work on a 5 ply blade. Inner, intermediate and top/outer ply could work for a 7 ply. Anything more and you’re gonna have to number them any way. Shouldn’t interfere with naming synthetic layers.

    I do wish manufacturers would just list the complete composition of all their blades, it’s pretty important for me when choosing a new one. Not even sure if I own a blade with a limba inner/medial/whatever ply.
    Last edited by An0n; 01-08-2022 at 12:25 AM.

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    #16
    Here you can see, what Sérgio means. ​​You can clearly see, that the structure of the bayous-core of my Harimoto Innerforce ALC is the same like the structure of the second layer. Therefore the second ply is definitely the same like the core (Ayous) and not Limba.

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    Last edited by Magic_M; 01-08-2022 at 12:15 PM.

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    #17


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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by An0n
    Core should be obviously the core. How about inner ply? It would work on a 5 ply blade. Inner, intermediate and top/outer ply could work for a 7 ply. Anything more and you’re gonna have to number them any way. Shouldn’t interfere with naming synthetic layers.

    I do wish manufacturers would just list the complete composition of all their blades, it’s pretty important for me when choosing a new one. Not even sure if I own a blade with a limba inner/medial/whatever ply.

    Out of interest, why is it important to you, and what do you look for?

    It’s something I’ve never once considered in choosing a blade, and outside of these forums (probably the majority inside as well), I’d be surprised if many people were knowledgeable enough or good enough to notice any difference.

    I’d also like the manufacturer to list it though, just for curiosity!


  19. hipnotic is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic_M
    Here you can see, what Sérgio means. ​​You can clearly see, that the structure of the bayous-core of my Harimoto Innerforce ALC is the same like the structure of the second layer. Therefore the second ply is definitely the same like the core (Ayous) and not Limba.

    Good example, thank you Manfred.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    Out of interest, why is it important to you, and what do you look for?

    It’s something I’ve never once considered in choosing a blade, and outside of these forums (probably the majority inside as well), I’d be surprised if many people were knowledgeable enough or good enough to notice any difference.

    I’d also like the manufacturer to list it though, just for curiosity!

    Well I own quite a few blades and I’m not looking to own nearly identical blades from different manufacturers unless I want to compare them directly. I’ve also come to know what kind of compositions I prefer and ones I know will most likely not suit me. Blades of similar composition and thickness tend to play similarly enough in my experience, no matter the brand.


    Not to go too far off topic. Is there a reason people guess Butterfly uses limba as a medial? Is it because they have a slightly harder feel than competitors? I only own two Butterfly blades but It’s been a while since I played with them so I don’t remember how they feel exactly.

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