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  1. Marcos Guglielmetti is offline
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    #21
    MGG

  2. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    In this video of yours, you get to see when it hits the net, and when someone blocks the shot:
    Our definitions may be different. That first BH shot that hits the net, it has some topspin....but not that much which is why it bounces slowly back to the net. If it had a lot of spin, it would have gone back to the net much faster. Then the second BH shot that hits the net and bounces in, your friend has no trouble with the spin when he lobs it back. If that had a lot of topspin and he tried to lob it, the ball would have flown off his racket.

    But again, you are making good shots. But I don't see a lot of spin on any of them. Not on your serves either.

    Your friend who is older, there are a few shots he makes that have nice spin. Listen to the sound of his racket when he makes heavier spin.
    Just look at the first two BH shots in this video of yours. The first one hits the net and comes back towards you and then bounces slowly towards the net. If it was a lot of spin that would bounce back towards the net very fast.

    The second shot hits the net, goes in and then your friend lobs it back. If it really had a lot of topspin his lob would have hit the ceiling.

    Then look at all the times that the older guy easily blocks back the BH shot.

    It has some topspin. But, to my eyes, I don't know that it is a lot of topspin. Perhaps our definitions of a lot of topspin are different.

    But I like how you look to attack. I think the way you play is fine.
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    #23
    Thanks Carl! You are right, it has top effect.

    In the shot in question, I hit the ball a little below the height of the net, it shoots slightly upwards at high speed and enters the opponent's table thanks to the spin - it does not enter thanks to the force of gravity, since at that speed what defines the entrance to the table is the effect of rotation and not gravity or the initial direction (if it were for the initial direction slightly upwards, it would have left the table). So I call this a top shot for 3 reasons: 1) because I hit it up, 2) because it is the spin and not the crash that defines the destination of the ball, 3) the trajectory draws a curve.
    Also when hitting the opponent's table, it gets up quite a bit, a flat hit wouldn't do that.

    The way we call the shots helps us to understand each other and in my case I am a coach and I need to explain to the students how to make a shot, what it is called and what we intend with the shot. That's why all this mess.
    Last edited by Marcos Guglielmetti; 01-20-2022 at 01:03 PM.
    MGG

  4. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos Guglielmetti
    Thanks Carl!

    In the shot in question, I hit the ball a little below the height of the net, it shoots slightly upwards at high speed and enters the opponent's table thanks to the spin - it does not enter thanks to the force of gravity, since at that speed what defines the entrance to the table is the effect of rotation and not gravity or the initial direction (if it were for the initial direction slightly upwards, it would have left the table). So I call this a top shot for 3 reasons: 1) because I hit it up, 2) because it is the spin and not the crash that defines the destination of the ball, 3) the trajectory draws a curve.
    Also when hitting the opponent's table, it gets up quite a bit, a flat hit wouldn't do that.

    The way we call the shots helps us to understand each other and in my case I am a coach and I need to explain to the students how to make a shot, what it is called and what we intend with the shot. That's why all this mess.

    In the video I posted from your YouTube Channel, which has the shot you singled out in it, look at that video and tell how much spin you think there is on your first two BH shots:

    This video:


    Also, several times, the older guy blocks those BH shots back easily. To me, none of your shots, including your serves, seem to have much spin. And in that first BH shot that hits the net and bounces back towards you, you can see it does not have much spin on it. So, if you consider that a lot of spin, we just have different definitions of what the term "a lot of spin" means.

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    Last edited by UpSideDownCarl; 01-20-2022 at 01:07 PM.
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  5. Marcos Guglielmetti is offline
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    #25
    MGG

  6. Marcos Guglielmetti is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    In the video I posted from your YouTube Channel, which has the shot you singled out in it, look at that video and tell how much spin you think there is on your first two BH shots:

    This video:


    Also, several times, the older guy blocks those BH shots back easily. To me, none of your shots, including your serves, seem to have much spin. And in that first BH shot that hits the net and bounces back towards you, you can see it does not have much spin on it. So, if you consider that a lot of spin, we just have different definitions of what the term "a lot of spin" means.

    Yes we can have different definitions... To me, for that velocity, it has lots of spin. Could it have more spin for that velocity? Many players think it has lots of spin, including Sergei from TT11.

    The intention when executing these shots is that they have the minimum spin required for the ball to go down the table thanks to the top effect (sometimes it will be more spin, sometimes less, but what has to dominate the destination of the ball is the spin), and go very fast forward. I could not tell any of my students that this is a flat hit, it would not make sense... I think.

    If the shot were flat, the ball would not be able to leave a little below the height of the net at that speed and enter again.

    MGG

  7. NDH is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos Guglielmetti

    Yes we can have different definitions... To me, for that velocity, it has lots of spin. Could it have more spin for that velocity? Many players think it has lots of spin, including Sergei from TT11.

    The intention when executing these shots is that they have the minimum spin required for the ball to go down the table thanks to the top effect (sometimes it will be more spin, sometimes less, but what has to dominate the destination of the ball is the spin), and go very fast forward. I could not tell any of my students that this is a flat hit, it would not make sense... I think.

    If the shot were flat, the ball would not be able to leave a little below the height of the net at that speed and enter again.

    I'd not call it a flat hit - My definition of "flat" would be little spin/attempted spin on the shot.

    It's certainly "topspin", but it wouldn't fall under the "topspin loop" category for me. More of a topspin drive (lovely shot by the way!)

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  8. antonymous is offline
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    #28
    Original question implies dichotomy, while in reality one should talk about the amount of spin.
    When practising you can always watch the ball on the floor after the shot: how fast it is spinning and for how long.

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    Last edited by antonymous; 01-20-2022 at 05:32 PM.

  9. Marcos Guglielmetti is offline
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I'd not call it a flat hit - My definition of "flat" would be little spin/attempted spin on the shot.

    It's certainly "topspin", but it wouldn't fall under the "topspin loop" category for me. More of a topspin drive (lovely shot by the way!)

    Very thanks. I have a hard time executing those shots, I have trained them but I have to train much more to achieve them in a consistent and effective way.

    MGG

  10. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos Guglielmetti
    ....in my case I am a coach and I need to explain to the students how to make a shot,
    I would love to see footage of you coaching a student. That would be great stuff to see on the forum.
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  11. antonymous is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos Guglielmetti
    The intention when executing these shots is that they have the minimum spin required for the ball to go down the table thanks to the top effect (sometimes it will be more spin, sometimes less, but what has to dominate the destination of the ball is the spin), and go very fast forward. I could not tell any of my students that this is a flat hit, it would not make sense... I think.

    First of all, I'm not a coach, I'm a beginner who has a coach.
    My understanding is that the more topspin the ball has, the safer shot is.
    If you are happy with stability of your shot, that's OK. But will your students be happy with the same amount of stability that's OK for you? Will you teach them how to get more safe shot when needed?
    So first of all I'd learn to get maximum spin, and only after that how to add power to the shot. Once one learns how to get max spin, he'll always be able to decrease it.
    Your best shots are those where your forearm rotates around the elbow quite relaxed. That's how you get your amount of spin. But to get more spin one has to add the wrist. Then that will definitely be topspin shot.
    I know each time I forget/fail to apply proper amount of wrist rotation to the ball, even with quite relaxed forearm the shot comes out without much spin and I miss. I know how to add give the ball more speed, but I don't see the point: I would still miss too many times.

    It would be interesting to see, how your technique applies to heavy underspin balls. I suspect you'll be struggling without the wrist rotation.

    P.S. Nice BH-topspin from The Ringer: https://youtu.be/2M3npOmzZFc?t=72 You can clearly see how he cocks his wrist first, then shoots it at the ball.

    Last edited by antonymous; 01-20-2022 at 06:59 PM.

  12. Marcos Guglielmetti is offline
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    #32
    Look at this old one https://i.postimg.cc/XJ0dHy34/revez-angulo-paleta.png

    There you can see the racket angle at 45º, doing a top shot (we can call it flip or something like that...), but not flat... I think that what fools some is the completion of the shot, since I cut off the movement of the arm and the inertia of the weight of the paddle and the hand make the paddle stay in an unusual position.


    https://youtu.be/n2y-IjGoVZg?t=339




    MGG

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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by antonymous

    First of all, I'm not a coach, I'm a beginner who has a coach.
    My understanding is that the more topspin the ball has, the safer shot is.
    If you are happy with stability of your shot, that's OK. But will your students be happy with the same amount of stability that's OK for you? Will you teach them how to get more safe shot when needed?


    So first of all I'd learn to get maximum spin, and only after that how to add power to the shot. Once one learns how to get max spin, he'll always be able to decrease it.
    Your best shots are those where your forearm rotates around the elbow quite relaxed. That's how you get your amount of spin. But to get more spin one has to add the wrist. Then that will definitely be topspin shot.
    I know each time I forget/fail to apply proper amount of wrist rotation to the ball, even with quite relaxed forearm the shot comes out without much spin and I miss. I know how to add give the ball more speed, but I don't see the point: I would still miss too many times.

    It would be interesting to see, how your technique applies to heavy underspin balls. I suspect you'll be struggling without the wrist rotation.

    P.S. Nice BH-topspin from The Ringer: https://youtu.be/2M3npOmzZFc?t=72 You can clearly see how he cocks his wrist first, then shoots it at the ball.

    Hi: yes, I teach to spin first. Velocity is not the key when learling at all.

    "It would be interesting to see, how your technique applies to heavy underspin balls. I suspect you'll be struggling without the wrist rotation.",

    normally I'll do a top shot with more upward movement and not shorten the movement so much: the technique is a bit different in that case.

    MGG

  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos Guglielmetti
    Look at this old one https://i.postimg.cc/XJ0dHy34/revez-angulo-paleta.png

    There you can see the racket angle at 45º, doing a top shot (we can call it flip or something like that...), but not flat... I think that what fools some is the completion of the shot, since I cut off the movement of the arm and the inertia of the weight of the paddle and the hand make the paddle stay in an unusual position.


    https://youtu.be/n2y-IjGoVZg?t=339

    This is a fun video to watch.
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    #35
    This is table tennis, not maths. There is no The Only Correct Answer. So whatever works for you, man!
    I believe that proper relaxation of muscles is crucial. Before the shot they should be relaxed, then you let them do their job, but only enough to send the ball at the speed and direction you want, as soon as that job is done, they should be immediatley relaxed. That way you get shot stability and do not get injuries. Anything you can obtain not doing that is just not worth it.
    If I understand you correctly, to execute your cut-off you'll have to activate appropriate muscles — that's extra work, not good! Also you'll have to do that exactly at the right time — i.e. stability may suffer!
    If you just contract the length of arm movement and your arm is still relaxed after the contact with the ball, then that's OK.
    As for how you should call this technique... This is definitely not a flat hit! As for topspin... My guess is... almost any coach in the world will tell you not to mess with deliberate arm movement cut-off for the reasons described above (again, not to be confused with movement's length, which depends on how far from the table you are). So... if you believe the point of your technique is exactly that, then maybe your should coin some new term? 🤔
    Last edited by antonymous; 01-20-2022 at 08:29 PM.

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    #36
    "I believe that proper relaxation of muscles is crucial. Before the shot they should be relaxed, then you let them do their job, but only enough to send the ball at the speed and direction you want, as soon as that job is done, they should be immediatley relaxed. That way you get shot stability and do not get injuries. Anything you can obtain not doing that is just not worth it.
    If I understand you correctly, to execute your cut-off you'll have to activate appropriate muscles — that's extra work, not good! Also you'll have to do that exactly at the right time — i.e. stability may suffer!"

    I agree, it is dangerous for the health... maybe a bad habit. It is difficult to train here at Junin, Bs. As because it is not a big town and there are not so many good trainers...


    "If you just contract the length of arm movement and your arm is still relaxed after the contact with the ball, then that's OK."

    Well, I really try to relax before doing the stroke

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    #37
    I do think there is some top or he couldn't hit it in that fast on a low ish ball. Probably not super heavy spin as he hits the ball quite full but not flat either. The follow through is unconventional but some pros do a similar move on the flick.

    maybe it is a backhand loop kill

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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85
    I do think there is some top or he couldn't hit it in that fast on a low ish ball. Probably not super heavy spin as he hits the ball quite full but not flat either. The follow through is unconventional but some pros do a similar move on the flick.

    maybe it is a backhand loop kill
    You made my day...

    "backhand loop kill" forever.
    MGG

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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcos Guglielmetti
    Well, I really try to relax before doing the stroke
    That's great! And I really can see that in some of your shots!
    But remember that right after you made the shot, you have to return back your arm as quickly as possible to be ready for another one. For that you'll activate some other muscles, but those which have just finished their job should get completely relaxed by that time. If you apply force to "cut off" your arm's followthrough, they can be late to do that, then they'll get in the way and you'll have to apply extra force to overcome that. And that can cause injury!
    Multiball is a great test here! 3 series of shots × 10-20 balls each, fed to you by sparring partner or robot in comfortable tempo, fast enough not to break the series into separate shots... this will show you at once, how really relaxed you are.
    Last edited by antonymous; 01-21-2022 at 07:48 AM.

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    #40
    off the bounce loopdrive

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