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  1. fais is offline
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    #1

    Pip structure for inverted rubbers.

    I'm sure this information exists somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it, so I thought to post here in the hopes that nerds like me might have the answer.

    My question is this - given 3 (maybe 4) pip attributes for an inverted rubber top sheet:
    1. height (how tall the pip is i.e how high above the sponge does the top sheet sit)
    2. width/radius (the basic size of the pip, i.e wider pips = lesser pips on the topsheet),
    3. spacing (how far pips are from each other. i.e. bigger spacing = lesser pips on the topsheet)
    4. tacky (sticky) <-- maybe?


    How do these attributes/combination of attributes effect the throw, spin, control and possibly speed of the ball (close, mid and far ranges). I understand there are other factors that greatly effect the ball, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the basic science. Please share what you know, I've been obsessing over this for a while now!

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    #2
    Quote Originally Posted by fais
    I'm sure this information exists somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it, so I thought to post here in the hopes that nerds like me might have the answer.

    My question is this - given 3 (maybe 4) pip attributes for an inverted rubber top sheet:
    1. height (how tall the pip is i.e how high above the sponge does the top sheet sit)
    2. width/radius (the basic size of the pip, i.e wider pips = lesser pips on the topsheet),
    3. spacing (how far pips are from each other. i.e. bigger spacing = lesser pips on the topsheet)
    4. tacky (sticky) <-- maybe?


    How do these attributes/combination of attributes effect the throw, spin, control and possibly speed of the ball (close, mid and far ranges). I understand there are other factors that greatly effect the ball, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the basic science. Please share what you know, I've been obsessing over this for a while now!Hi
    BTY explained some of 2.+3. in it's T19 promo: https://www.butterfly-global.com/en/...energy/19.html Seems reasonable to me, but I'm not an expert.
    I doubt that 4. has any sense for pimples-in rubber.
    As for 1. my guess is that sponge thickness variation has greater effect than pips' height, and then there's also ITTF's limit on overall rubber thickness. So maybe the pips' height is chosen so that it lets the pips do their job and at the same time allows to combine them with the sponge of different thickness. Also too long pips would break faster, I guess.

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    Last edited by antonymous; 02-08-2022 at 01:28 PM.

  3. Stuart Marquis is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by fais
    I'm sure this information exists somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it, so I thought to post here in the hopes that nerds like me might have the answer.

    My question is this - given 3 (maybe 4) pip attributes for an inverted rubber top sheet:
    1. height (how tall the pip is i.e how high above the sponge does the top sheet sit)
    2. width/radius (the basic size of the pip, i.e wider pips = lesser pips on the topsheet),
    3. spacing (how far pips are from each other. i.e. bigger spacing = lesser pips on the topsheet)
    4. tacky (sticky) <-- maybe?


    How do these attributes/combination of attributes effect the throw, spin, control and possibly speed of the ball (close, mid and far ranges). I understand there are other factors that greatly effect the ball, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the basic science. Please share what you know, I've been obsessing over this for a while now!

    Your questions cover quite a lot of interacting variables, but I think of it in the context of inverted topsheets basically being different variations of Short, Medium and Long pips that are turned upside-down. Just as SP's are better for closer to the table play, so to are inverted rubbers with larger pips (eg Tenergy 25), whereas something with thinner more flexible pips (Tenergy 05, Tenergy 19 etc etc) is better equipped for play further away from the table...just like medium and Long pip rubber are better than SP's away from the table (albeit likely with the use of a chop stroke rather than a drive as per SP's).

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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by fais
    I'm sure this information exists somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it, so I thought to post here in the hopes that nerds like me might have the answer.

    My question is this - given 3 (maybe 4) pip attributes for an inverted rubber top sheet:
    1. height (how tall the pip is i.e how high above the sponge does the top sheet sit)
    2. width/radius (the basic size of the pip, i.e wider pips = lesser pips on the topsheet),
    3. spacing (how far pips are from each other. i.e. bigger spacing = lesser pips on the topsheet)
    4. tacky (sticky) <-- maybe?


    How do these attributes/combination of attributes effect the throw, spin, control and possibly speed of the ball (close, mid and far ranges). I understand there are other factors that greatly effect the ball, but I'm trying to wrap my head around the basic science. Please share what you know, I've been obsessing over this for a while now!

    Your questions cover quite a lot of interacting variables, but I think of it in the context of inverted topsheets basically being different variations of Short, Medium and Long pips that are turned upside-down. Just as SP's are better for closer to the table play, so to are inverted rubbers with larger pips (eg Tenergy 25), whereas something with thinner more flexible pips (Tenergy 05, Tenergy 19 etc etc) is better equipped for play further away from the table...just like medium and Long pip rubber are generally thought to be better than SP's away from the table (albeit likely with the use of a chop stroke rather than a drive/topspin stroke as per SP's).


  5. MK73 is offline
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    #5
    This post might answer some of your questions:

    https://ttgearlab.wordpress.com/2017...nsion-rubbers/

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  6. igorponger is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MK73
    This post might answer some of your questions:https://ttgearlab.wordpress.com/2017...nsion-rubbers/
    Non-expert talks, sorry
    Last edited by igorponger; 02-10-2022 at 07:25 PM.

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    #7
    SCIENTIA EST POTENTIA.
    Tiefenbacher's profound investigations of 1994. (inverse rubbers subjected)

    Summary of the Tiefenbacher's researches in most brief words
    — slim and flexible pimples are good for spinny strokes
    — stiff and stubby pimples are better to use for fast attacks.

    Dr. Tiefenbacher explained actual physics of ball and rubber impact with a lot of practical experiments .
    The article still available from Google Academics depot..

    https://sasportssience.blob.core.win...e%20Impact.pdf

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    Last edited by igorponger; 02-10-2022 at 07:40 PM.

  8. davidjulian is offline
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    #8
    I think more precise mathematical calculations are needed here. When you need to resort to finding the exact answer to your questions, it is best to use the exact sciences like mathematics for this. You can calculate for yourself or look for the answer on https://plainmath.net/secondary/calculus-and-analysis/precalculus/trigonometry, as he has repeatedly helped me out in the most unpredictable situations. I used it in college to find an answer to any applications of integrals question and also used it when I couldn't accurately calculate tank density for my fish. It is convenient to understand mathematics, you can count everything in the world.
    Last edited by davidjulian; 04-28-2022 at 08:54 AM.

  9. brokenball is offline
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    #9
    Yeah igorponger! I have been posting that link for years and now someone else is paying attention!
    The study is old but the physics hasn't changed.
    However, it would be nice if that research was done again with modern cameras and modern TT equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by davidjulian
    I think more precise mathematical calculations are needed here.
    You are kidding right!?
    Would you be able to understand them? The uneducated "kids" wouldn't. They are still looking for the magic rubber , blade or booster that will make them better.
    Would the study be ignored like that Tieffenbacher study has been for so many years?
    It would be a lot of work and all the effort would be wasted as soon as the thread is off the front page.

    Longer thinner pips would allow the top sheet to stretch more when brushing. A thinner top sheet would also allow the top sheet to stretch more. It is the snap back that causes extra spin in addition to the tangential paddle speed.
    The difference between T05 and T25 was that the T25 pips were thicker so they didn't allow the top sheet to stretch as much so there was less spin. This assume the top sheets are made of the same material.
    As far as the speed difference goes, it depends on how springy the pips are vs the sponge. I have no data on that.




  10. Kuba Hajto is online now
    says Equipment matters a lot to scrubs who can't make minor adjustments to their stroke.
     
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    You are kidding right!?

    I am 90% sure that is a bot. davidjulian, are you a bot or a human?//exactly 5 posts, with very generic text

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    /devnull

  11. igorponger is offline
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    #11

    Mind the limits. T max=2.00 mm
    Last edited by igorponger; 04-23-2022 at 07:00 PM.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    I am 90% sure that is a bot. davidjulian, are you a bot or a human?//exactly 5 posts, with very generic text

    It's a bot and it's quite funny broken can't spot it.

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  13. Haraold is offline
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    #13
    so zylinder Shape doesn´t matter at all?

  14. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuba Hajto

    I am 90% sure that is a bot. davidjulian, are you a bot or a human?//exactly 5 posts, with very generic text

    Quote Originally Posted by JustANoob

    It's a bot and it's quite funny broken can't spot it.

    This has happened before. Actually, there are a lot of people who respond to bots. I am 98.5% sure it is a bot.

    The only reason this one has not been removed yet is, I don't see any spam from it. If it goes inactive for a few days, I will also make it disappear because all of the posts are waste of space posts. But I have my eye on DavidJulian.

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    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
    Spin is Everything

  15. erm is offline
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    #15
    yes shape of the pips make a difference into the flexibility and spring affect too...
    also the arranging of the pips in vertical or horizontal direction makes a difference as well in inverted not just in pips out...

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