WTT Star Contender Doha 2022

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going back to the tournament, ARUNA is on fire, he's taken his revenge from LIU Dingshuo, and now has beaten ZHAO Zihao.
well you'll see ARUNA's RC rating adjust quickly after those 2 performances against higher rated players...

I have watched ARUNA yet not at this tournament (busy these days), but the previous one, and he has really improved a lot on the BH side, agressive punch/ block style mainly used. He's a beast physically still with one of the most destructive FH. And now he's getting good results, his opponents are getting scared, and he's getting more and more confident ! He's really the in-form player and the one to watch.

Take a look at my avatar! 😉

I see a great and I recognise it instantly.

 
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I really like Aruna. He once said he will keep playing table tennis until he can't play anymore. What a passion!! Admirable athlete dedicated to a sport 👍 👍 👍

At 33 of age, running around in that range is a challenge. I hope he can keep on performing at that level for long.

Aruna is a great role model in many ways.
Despite not having a conventional forehand, he is excelling with his uniquie forehand along with his althetism. Just shows that you don't have to have the 'Chinese' technique to be excellent in table tennis. While he may not reach world no 1, it should offer amateurs relief that they can still excel with an unconventional technique.

Looking forward to his match against Zhou Qi Hao.

 
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Aruna is a great role model in many ways.
Despite not having a conventional forehand, he is excelling with his uniquie forehand along with his althetism. Just shows that you don't have to have the 'Chinese' technique to be excellent in table tennis. While he may not reach world no 1, it should offer amateurs relief that they can still excel with an unconventional technique.

Looking forward to his match against Zhou Qi Hao.

If you're looking for a coach with unconventional technique, look at my coach !

yeh but I agree, sometimes you just look at Aruna FH he looks clumsy, but when you look at the ball he's just hit, its just wow...

 
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says Buttefly Forever!!!
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If you're looking for a coach with unconventional technique, look at my coach !

yeh but I agree, sometimes you just look at Aruna FH he looks clumsy, but when you look at the ball he's just hit, its just wow...

That is why Aruna is such an enigma. In the world of TT, we have the chinese FH, then the european FH and perhaps we are seeing the emergence of the 3rd type: Wakanda FH.

 
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Love Aruna. His Forehand is like Nadal or Pete Sampras forehand. He swings above his head.

Is Liu still playing with Yinhe V14 Pro?
 
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Disclaimer: I have not been able to watch the live matches.
Looking at the draw results, Aruna has beaten Zhou Qi Hao, meaning he has beaten 3 Chinese players this tournament! This meant there are no more Chinese players left on the Men's draw as Xu Fei has also been knocked out by Andrej Gacina.

On a different note: LYJ has been knocked out by Lim Jonghooon. LYJ doesn't seem to be as active as before, appears more tired, and at times frustrated with his own performance.

Now the draw is completely freed up for non-Chinese players!
 
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Aruna is a great role model in many ways.
Despite not having a conventional forehand, he is excelling with his uniquie forehand along with his althetism. Just shows that you don't have to have the 'Chinese' technique to be excellent in table tennis. While he may not reach world no 1, it should offer amateurs relief that they can still excel with an unconventional technique.

Looking forward to his match against Zhou Qi Hao.

It is a technically correct forehand though, mostly powered by the legs, with good leverage and forearm snap and largely topspin focused, maybe with a bit more back muscle action to take advantage of Quadri's strengths. I say that not because I really want to argue with you, but because I want to stress that unconventional technique is not the same as incorrect technique, and the latter is what amateurs need to avoid.

 
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No Chinese player in singles semis, both men and women, when was that last seen??? (when there were so many on the starting line !)

a lot of non-Chinese top players weren't there as well, so its difficult to explain ! The world has finally catched up with China B and C teams, or was that the C and D teams ?
 
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We have discussed these issues extensively in the past - you can search for the threads if you want to learn why these are not the whole story. Chess to introduce excitement and randomness has largely resorted to shorter and shorter time limits (sound familiar to anyone?) Measuring player strength accurately is not everything.

Look the FIDE rankings: there are 3 different ones for each kind of time limits, Standard being the typical 2h/2h limit (with numbers of moves varying from 30 to the typical 40 ones according to each tournament: no less than those number in the 2h limit), Rapid (20 mn, the most used time limit worldwide for amateurs) and Blitz, the well known NYC/Boston outdoor parks time limit. Bertween those 3 different rankings there are huge variations sometimes: Magnus Carlsen is still number 2 in Rapid and Blitz, but Nakamura jumps from the 13th rank from Standard time to the 1st one in Blitz, because with covid he wasn't able and allowed to play more in IRL competitions, so he competed in official online blitz tournaments, with Maxime Vachier Lagrave being blitz world champion in the official IRL World Championship Hikaru is still ranked n°1, and to me that makes sense (also because Magnus Carlsen sometimes do not take online blitz games seriously, he loves playing while being drunk hahaha).

I mean... you can't do better and fairer system than this one.

 
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No Chinese player in singles semis, both men and women, when was that last seen??? (when there were so many on the starting line !)

a lot of non-Chinese top players weren't there as well, so its difficult to explain ! The world has finally catched up with China B and C teams, or was that the C and D teams ?


Yeah. I noticed low-level (# 27) Chen Szu Yu just beat Zhang Rui. Is she now top 10? Or are you still of the opinion that Adriana's win over CSY at the WTTC was jet lag and means next to nothing?

 
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Look the FIDE rankings: there are 3 different ones for each kind of time limits, Standard being the typical 2h/2h limit (with numbers of moves varying from 30 to the typical 40 ones according to each tournament: no less than those number in the 2h limit), Rapid (20 mn, the most used time limit worldwide for amateurs) and Blitz, the well known NYC/Boston outdoor parks time limit. Bertween those 3 different rankings there are huge variations sometimes: Magnus Carlsen is still number 2 in Rapid and Blitz, but Nakamura jumps from the 13th rank from Standard time to the 1st one in Blitz, because with covid he wasn't able and allowed to play more in IRL competitions, so he competed in official online blitz tournaments, with Maxime Vachier Lagrave being blitz world champion in the official IRL World Championship Hikaru is still ranked n°1, and to me that makes sense (also because Magnus Carlsen sometimes do not take online blitz games seriously, he loves playing while being drunk hahaha).

I mean... you can't do better and fairer system than this one.

This is a very selective view of things. Why do they use Blitz matches to decide more and more things now in classical tournaments when blitz used to be the pariah of chess? Why are they using time controls with less increments in standard time controls in order to control the length of matches? You may or may not be old enough to remember when adjournments and resumption in chess were the norm, now they virtually do not exist in chess.

My point is that a balance must always be struck between a form of perfect "strength measurement" and requiring "performance and participation" and finally "entertainment", since sports to be successful needs to be entertaining.

Even now, Fabiano Cuarana is now working really hard on his blitz and bullet skills because after match Carlsen in regular time controls, he got blown off the board in the rapid/blitz tiebreakers. My point is that we can carry the emphasis on one type of strength measurement too far when one can think of the current system as trying to find the balance between more competing goals. Chess just does it differently from table tennis. We don't have one game tournaments in table tennis for example.

 
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Zhang Rui has never more than ranked 53 in 2018, means something in the top 30 as she's chinese and not allowed to play as many tournaments as she'd like to. Add some pandemic and covid restrictions to that and you'll understand why she was poor ranked. To me they all 3 belong to that 20-30 WTT rankings area, but not much indeed. The 11 points format allows for some variations in W/L ratios between the same opponents, the 21 pts one at least showed who was really the best.
 
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This is a very selective view of things. Why do they use Blitz matches to decide more and more things now in classical tournaments when blitz used to be the pariah of chess? Why are they using time controls with less increments in standard time controls in order to control the length of matches? You may or may not be old enough to remember when adjournments and resumption in chess were the norm, now they virtually do not exist in chess.

My point is that a balance must always be struck between a form of perfect "strength measurement" and requiring "performance and participation" and finally "entertainment", since sports to be successful needs to be entertaining.

Even now, Fabiano Cuarana is now working really hard on his blitz and bullet skills because after match Carlsen in regular time controls, he got blown off the board in the rapid/blitz tiebreakers. My point is that we can carry the emphasis on one type of strength measurement too far when one can think of the current system as trying to find the balance between more competing goals. Chess just does it differently from table tennis. We don't have one game tournaments in table tennis for example.

I'm 49 and played official tournaments in the adjournaments era dude... and it was freaking stupid, it was also unfair because you were finishing your adjournaments sometimes past midnight and then had to start the next morning at 8 AM !!!

No seriously, it's a good consensus, some competitions were ending sometimes 1 even 2 days after the "official" end of the tournament. And most of the time it was the "little" players who were fighting in ADJ mode to gain some points, but the top ranked one never ADJ before the last round, they prefered agreed to do some perpetual moves and end the fight in a draw. So at least the blitz ending system forces them to fully play. It's equity for the poor ranked players.

 
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I'm 49 and played official tournaments in the adjournaments era dude... and it was freaking stupid, it was also unfair because you were finishing your adjounaments sometimes past midnight and then had to start the next morning at 8 AM !!!

No seriously, it's a good consensus, some competitions were ending sometimes 1 even 2 days after the "official" end of the tournament. And most of the time it was the "little" players who were fighting in ADJ mode to gain some points, but the top ranked one never ADJ before the last round, they prefered agreed to do some perpetual moves and end the fight in a draw. So at least the blitz ending system forces them to fully play. It's equity for the poor ranked players.

Yeah, but the strongest player is more often revealed by the longest time control, no? We should be playing best of 7 not best of 5. No, we should be playing 21 point games not 11 point games?

I am just trying to understand how you square these kinds of tradeoffs with making statements about how ranking systems or scoring that maximize your preferred strength measurement approach are objectively the "best" and not simply a preference based on focusing on some things over other things that might be equally important.

 
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Zhang Rui has never more than ranked 53 in 2018, means something in the top 30 as she's chinese and not allowed to play as many tournaments as she'd like to. Add some pandemic and covid restrictions to that and you'll understand why she was poor ranked. To me they all 3 belong to that 20-30 WTT rankings area, but not much indeed. The 11 points format allows for some variations in W/L ratios between the same opponents, the 21 pts one at least showed who was really the best.

Ah okay. It is cool that someone's ranking 4 years ago impacts your perspective more strongly that her play and RC rating in 2022. You have a lower opinion of her than I do. My point though is that this is why we play the matches and it is easy to put too much into strength measurement without balancing it with the stress of performance, especially when people are allowed to choose when to perform and are not forced to perform on demand, as the current points format largely forces them to.

 
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Yeah, but the strongest player is more often revealed by the longest time control, no? We should be playing best of 7 not best of 5. No, we should be playing 21 point games not 11 point games?

I am just trying to understand how you square these kinds of tradeoffs with making statements about how ranking systems or scoring that maximize your preferred strength measurement approach are objectively the "best" and not simply a preference based on focusing on some things over other things that might be equally important.

Nope, the stronger player is revealed by his deeper calculations, simple as that. Recently MVL has been lost in a spanish opening, his "madeleine de proust" because he didn't worked deeply enough on a single move the blacks opponent did. These guys work with their coaches prior to the match, when they have the whites it's easy to dictate the opening. MVL did a poor anticipation training with his coach, he didn't calculte deeply enough.

Hikaru Nakamura is the best in Blitz because he calculates deeper than the other in a short amount of time, but that does not mean he will calculate deeper with more minutes in his pockets. In that game, Carlsen shows he's the one who can calculate deeper than anyone, as Kasparov used to. (Kasparov has been Carlsen's coach for some times...)

 
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Nope, the stronger player is revealed by his deeper calculations, simple as that. Recently MVL has been lost in a spanish opening, his "madeleine de proust" because he didn't worked deeply enough on a single move the blacks opponent did. These guys work with their coaches prior to the match, when they have the whites it's easy to dictate the opening. MVL did a poor anticipation training with his coach, he didn't calculte deeply enough.

Hikaru Nakamura is the best in Blitz because he calculates deeper than the other in a short amount of time, but that does not mean he will calculate deeper with more minutes in his pockets. In that game, Carlsen shows he's the one who can calculate deeper than anyone, as Kasparov used to. (Kasparov has been Carlsen's coach for some times...)


Since this isn't a chess forum, I will let you have the last word on this. It has been shown many times, that Carlsen' superpower isn't so much his calculation but his ability to evaluate positions more quickly than others based on nuances that others may not value as heavily.

 
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Yeah. I noticed low-level (# 27) Chen Szu Yu just beat Zhang Rui. Is she now top 10? Or are you still of the opinion that Adriana's win over CSY at the WTTC was jet lag and means next to nothing?

Ranking only is a number you get from all existing past information. the beauty of RC Elo system, is that when new info (= new match results come in), RC ratings adjusts. Thats the Bayesian way of thinking. Very recommended if you want to win at poker, sportsbetting or stock market or make scientific predictions

If a player suddenly improves, it takes a few tournaments and wins to converge to the new level. there is also the uncertainty margin to take into consideration.

As for Adriana, her WR is inflated compared to her actual level and her WR will go down very logically from 9-16 to 17-32
CHEN YS, DIAZ, ZHANG Rui should be in the same bracket i believe (17-32)

Remind me in 1 year.
 
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Ranking only is a number you get from all existing past information. the beauty of RC Elo system, is that when new info (= new match results come in), RC ratings adjusts. Thats the Bayesian way of thinking. Very recommended if you want to win at poker, sportsbetting or stock market or make scientific predictions

If a player suddenly improves, it takes a few tournaments and wins to converge to the new level. there is also the uncertainty margin to take into consideration.

As for Adriana, her WR is inflated compared to her actual level and her WR will go down very logically from 9-16 to 17-32
CHEN YS, DIAZ, ZHANG Rui should be in the same bracket i believe (17-32)

Remind me in 1 year.

Just to be clear, you have factored Diaz's continental advantages and potential for improvement into all this? Don't want a revisionist history in a year's time (assuming no injury/pregancy etc.)

 
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