Is this good zlc?

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One of the clone sellers on aliexpress sent me this photo of the zlc they use. They said regular zlc is from China, but s-zlc is imported from Japan. Just from what you can tell in the photo, how is it as zlc?

 
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They also sent this photo of alc. How does it look?

It seems surprising that the arylate is woven against itslef, and carbon against itself. Is that normal?
 
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The idea that you can tell from a photo how it will play as a ply in a blade is definitely entertaining.

Well I'm not asking how it plays, but just if anybody can see if the weave is generally done properly, or if it has any different ways about it. Just like a carpenter could look at any crossbeam and tell if it was done the way he would do it, or if it uses a different technique.

 
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And the first thing I notice is that the zlc has a checkered pattern because it is weaving the zylon against the carbon.

But the alc has a stripe pattern, because its weaving the arylate against itself.
 
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They both have what is called a plain weave pattern, but the "zlc" has a ratio of 1:0, which means there is only one fiber in each direction and the ALC has a ratio of 1:1, with both fibers in both directions. The weaving pattern of the "zlc" is actually correct, that is what you find on Butterfly blades, but yo me it doesn't look like zlc, it can just be the picture but the color is not right. Coming from where it does, it probably isn't. Zylon is very expensive, and as far as I'm aware there are no manufacturers in China, but I may be wrong about that. It's very easy to dye Kevlar these days, which is a lot cheaper than Zylon, so it's probably that.

The ALC is actually the same as one of mine. The weaving pattern is not exactly the same as Butterfly's, it has a bit more blue in the vertical direction and a bit more black in the horizontal direction. So it's not as stiff but a bit harder.

Anyway, none of this matters as there are many other variables. People talk about fibers like it's the only important aspect, but the lamination process, type and amount of resin used are equally important. I can make a blade feel different in a number of ways by using the same composite but changing the other variables. With these cheap blades they are not very concerned with feeling, they use the least expensive method to get the job done, you pay for what you get.

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Different manufacturers use different methods sometimes depending what kind of industry they are aiming for.
So the aero-industry might have different requirements than the boat building industry - just to give a sample.
When you are looking at a sample -patch you have to assume it was cut of a role of hundreds of meters of the stuff.
I used to purchase my woven carbon in 100m roles.

While I admit that there is "science" applied in choosing materials for the manufacturing of TT-blades, I hazard a guess
and say that most likely it is a matter of trial and error 😁
 
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They both have what is called a plain weave pattern, but the "zlc" has a ratio of 1:0, which means there is only one fiber in each direction and the ALC has a ratio of 1:1, with both fibers in both directions. The weaving pattern of the "zlc" is actually correct, that is what you find on Butterfly blades, but yo me it doesn't look like zlc, it can just be the picture but the color is not right. Coming from where it does, it probably isn't. Zylon is very expensive, and as far as I'm aware there are no manufacturers in China, but I may be wrong about that. It's very easy to dye Kevlar these days, which is a lot cheaper than Zylon, so it's probably that.

The ALC is actually the same as one of mine. The weaving pattern is not exactly the same as Butterfly's, it has a bit more blue in the vertical direction and a bit more black in the horizontal direction. So it's not as stiff but a bit harder.

Anyway, none of this matters as there are many other variables. People talk about fibers like it's the only important aspect, but the lamination process, type and amount of resin used are equally important. I can make a blade feel different in a number of ways by using the same composite but changing the other variables. With these cheap blades they are not very concerned with feeling, they use the least expensive method to get the job done, you pay for what you get.

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Does BTY ZLC and ALC use the 1:0 pattern or the 1:1 pattern? In your opinion, does the ALC look like real ALC or kevlar dyed blue?

Also, what are the methods that improve on the blade "feeling"? I would have thought that feeling is a function of the type of wood used.

As for the ZLC, I wouldn't be surprised if it was dyed kevlar. Similarly, China is a $15 trillion economy, and I wouldn't be surprised if some local enterprising fellow decided to start making ZLC, even if he can't quite get it to the same standard. I'm generally very suspicious of the sellers and ask them a lot of questions. I have found that they don't seem to exaggerate or lie even when given the opportunity.

 
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Different manufacturers use different methods sometimes depending what kind of industry they are aiming for.
So the aero-industry might have different requirements than the boat building industry - just to give a sample.
When you are looking at a sample -patch you have to assume it was cut of a role of hundreds of meters of the stuff.
I used to purchase my woven carbon in 100m roles.

While I admit that there is "science" applied in choosing materials for the manufacturing of TT-blades, I hazard a guess
and say that most likely it is a matter of trial and error 😁

Why were you buying woven carbon? Were you making your own blades?

 
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The resin is also very important... There can be big differences in stiffness and flexibility.... Some are used for airframe like ultra jets which needs really light weight and great flexibility.,others like for boats which needs great stiffness and do not care about the weight... Also the treatment cares....
 
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The resin is also very important... There can be big differences in stiffness and flexibility.... Some are used for airframe like ultra jets which needs really light weight and great flexibility.,others like for boats which needs great stiffness and do not care about the weight... Also the treatment cares....
Resin is indeed important but maybe not necessarily a weight factor. Resins can be made "lighter" by adding (for example) Microballons but it might then challenge the quality of the bond itself.
Also weight IS a very important factor in boat-building too, not just in the Aero-industry

 
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They both have what is called a plain weave pattern, but the "zlc" has a ratio of 1:0, which means there is only one fiber in each direction and the ALC has a ratio of 1:1, with both fibers in both directions. The weaving pattern of the "zlc" is actually correct, that is what you find on Butterfly blades, but yo me it doesn't look like zlc, it can just be the picture but the color is not right. Coming from where it does, it probably isn't. Zylon is very expensive, and as far as I'm aware there are no manufacturers in China, but I may be wrong about that. It's very easy to dye Kevlar these days, which is a lot cheaper than Zylon, so it's probably that.

The ALC is actually the same as one of mine. The weaving pattern is not exactly the same as Butterfly's, it has a bit more blue in the vertical direction and a bit more black in the horizontal direction. So it's not as stiff but a bit harder.

Anyway, none of this matters as there are many other variables. People talk about fibers like it's the only important aspect, but the lamination process, type and amount of resin used are equally important. I can make a blade feel different in a number of ways by using the same composite but changing the other variables. With these cheap blades they are not very concerned with feeling, they use the least expensive method to get the job done, you pay for what you get.

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This covers some of what I was trying to say with my post but it covers a lot more. Great post.

I realized that a better way of saying what I meant, after saying it was, that from the photos, you can't even really be sure the fibers are what they say they are. But you covered a lot more and it is all good information, especially for someone who is hungry for information on TT equipment and going wild with a bad case of the EJ virus. :)

 
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They both have what is called a plain weave pattern, but the "zlc" has a ratio of 1:0, which means there is only one fiber in each direction and the ALC has a ratio of 1:1, with both fibers in both directions. The weaving pattern of the "zlc" is actually correct, that is what you find on Butterfly blades, but yo me it doesn't look like zlc, it can just be the picture but the color is not right. Coming from where it does, it probably isn't. Zylon is very expensive, and as far as I'm aware there are no manufacturers in China, but I may be wrong about that. It's very easy to dye Kevlar these days, which is a lot cheaper than Zylon, so it's probably that.

The ALC is actually the same as one of mine. The weaving pattern is not exactly the same as Butterfly's, it has a bit more blue in the vertical direction and a bit more black in the horizontal direction. So it's not as stiff but a bit harder.

Anyway, none of this matters as there are many other variables. People talk about fibers like it's the only important aspect, but the lamination process, type and amount of resin used are equally important. I can make a blade feel different in a number of ways by using the same composite but changing the other variables. With these cheap blades they are not very concerned with feeling, they use the least expensive method to get the job done, you pay for what you get.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

I can make a blade feel different in a number of ways by using the same composite but changing the other variables. With these cheap blades they are not very concerned with feeling, they use the least expensive method to get the job done, you pay for what you get.

So true, but then of course sometimes an expensive hand made blade can be a real dog and a cheap mass produced one can be
a true honey of a blade. Fluke................most likely 😁

 
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Does BTY ZLC and ALC use the 1:0 pattern or the 1:1 pattern? In your opinion, does the ALC look like real ALC or kevlar dyed blue?

Also, what are the methods that improve on the blade "feeling"? I would have thought that feeling is a function of the type of wood used.

As for the ZLC, I wouldn't be surprised if it was dyed kevlar. Similarly, China is a $15 trillion economy, and I wouldn't be surprised if some local enterprising fellow decided to start making ZLC, even if he can't quite get it to the same standard. I'm generally very suspicious of the sellers and ask them a lot of questions. I have found that they don't seem to exaggerate or lie even when given the opportunity.

Butterfly's ZLC has the same weave pattern as that one, the zylon is horizontal and the carbon is vertical. Butterfly's ALC is sort of a 1:1, but there is almost no Arylate in the vertical direction and there is a lot more space between the threads than that one. This is their proprietary weave and, to my knowledge, nobody else has it. That "Arylate" is most definitely not dyed Kevlar, but what it really is I'm not sure.

There are a lot of factors than concern the blade's feeling, but when it comes to composite fibers the lamination process is a big one. What us independent blade builders are doing is to laminate the fiber between the wood plies. This is a more careful and time consuming process, it allows to control some factors but it's only suitable for building one blade at a time really. What they are doing is to laminate the fibers separately into big sheets, then cut it and glue the wood plies. This is much faster to do and allows to build more blades in a shorter time span, but there is a lot more resin used which results in stiffer and harder blades.

I suggest that you give a read to the nerdy stuff section on my website if you want to get some more info: https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff

 
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I can make a blade feel different in a number of ways by using the same composite but changing the other variables. With these cheap blades they are not very concerned with feeling, they use the least expensive method to get the job done, you pay for what you get.

So true, but then of course sometimes an expensive hand made blade can be a real dog and a cheap mass produced one can be
a true honey of a blade. Fluke................most likely 😁

Completely true, but notice how I didn't mentioned anything about how they play. There are plenty of good and cheap blades out there, and a high price tag does not make a blade necessarily good.

 
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Butterfly's ZLC has the same weave pattern as that one, the zylon is horizontal and the carbon is vertical. Butterfly's ALC is sort of a 1:1, but there is almost no Arylate in the vertical direction and there is a lot more space between the threads than that one. This is their proprietary weave and, to my knowledge, nobody else has it. That "Arylate" is most definitely not dyed Kevlar, but what it really is I'm not sure.

There are a lot of factors than concern the blade's feeling, but when it comes to composite fibers the lamination process is a big one. What us independent blade builders are doing is to laminate the fiber between the wood plies. This is a more careful and time consuming process, it allows to control some factors but it's only suitable for building one blade at a time really. What they are doing is to laminate the fibers separately into big sheets, then cut it and glue the wood plies. This is much faster to do and allows to build more blades in a shorter time span, but there is a lot more resin used which results in stiffer and harder blades.

I suggest that you give a read to the nerdy stuff section on my website if you want to get some more info: https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff

How does Butterfly laminate the composite layer? The big sheet method or your individual method? Or otherwise, how does Butterfly laminate while providing for good "feeling"?

 
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How does Butterfly laminate the composite layer? The big sheet method or your individual method? Or otherwise, how does Butterfly laminate while providing for good "feeling"?

Re .good feeling . They will not publicly reveal their secrets. There is a video around that " shows" how they ALLEGEDLY make blades,
the video gives an impression of the "olde" craftsman, laboring away in an oldish looking factory setup and with lots
of "hands-on" stuff. I do not believe that it would be possible to turn out the thousands of blades and rubbers if they would
actually work under those conditions.

Also just because it has the name Butterfly painted on it it still does not guarantee "the feel". Lucky me I just managed to sell my Innerforce ALC
getting half my money back. I sold it because "Lack of the feel" 😁

 
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