Backhand improvement, and advice

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

About 1 month ago, I lost a few frustrating matches against a few guys who just do 1 single action in a match, they just slice to my backhand. I was always pinned on the backhand, and couldn't do much and would just throw away points left and right. I decided that my biggest weakness was my backhand, and I decided to practice backhand opening loop and backhand drive every session for 1 month, and see how far it could come. Against a practice partner, we played little matches where the rule was he had to slice to my BH, and I had to loop it everytime. My partner said that he noticed how much I improved in just 4 weeks. He said in our early matches, I would throw away 7 or 8 points just trying to loop the slice. He said now I am only losing 1 or 2 points, and winning far more points from my backhand loop. Today I played a guy who is maybe 1600 or so, and I managed to win 3-1. I was able to win a lot of points in the games from BH opening loop as well as BH follow up drives.

But during practice, I still can't consistently do BH loop against topspin. If my partner just blocks for me, I can't loop consistently from the BH. I can drive with power pretty consistently, but not loop. Is there something different about looping against backspin that makes it easier? Maybe because the racket angle is more open? Why is it harder to BH loop against topspin?

How can I improve my backhand loop against topspin?

Der_Echte · Apr 8, 2022

You are talking about two extremely different shots here.

Why is it way easier to open heavy vs underspin?

1 - You have a lot of time... to see the ball, to see what is on it and where/when it is going, and to get into position.

2 - Ball is not coming in very fast, so the timing to impact point is easier

Why is vs topspin more difficult?

1 - People often learn vs underspin first and the shot is 180 degrees different

2 - You have less time for everything... and the anticipation, preparation, and time to impact is greatly shortened

What can you do ??

1 - Learn a much shorter whip and go for less at first - use the lower arm and a little wrist. Feel the ball, whip through with tiny stroke at first. Do not use long arm or upper arm. Learn it closer to table - you have less time there and are forced to use short stroke

2 - Stroke is more horizontal and shorter... walk around the table at warm-up circling the table taking a step and a tiny BH stroke... do this all the way around the table 1-2 times each session.

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

very good points.

Do you think that BH loop against topspin is a necessary or important stroke to learn?? In game, I usually just hit my BH as a flatter drive-type shot. Even though I can't get too much spin, the BH drive is still very powerful and I win a lot of points with this stroke. Should I focus my attention to learn the BH loop or just keep using the drive?

When I watch CNT players, it seems to me that they also are hitting their BH as more of a drive rather than a loop. Certainly their BH stroke looks shorter, flatter, and less spinny than their FH stroke. I'm not sure though, so is that correct observation?

ricospin · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
very good points.

Do you think that BH loop against topspin is a necessary or important stroke to learn?? In game, I usually just hit my BH as a flatter drive-type shot. Even though I can't get too much spin, the BH drive is still very powerful and I win a lot of points with this stroke. Should I focus my attention to learn the BH loop or just keep using the drive?

When I watch CNT players, it seems to me that they also are hitting their BH as more of a drive rather than a loop. Certainly their BH stroke looks shorter, flatter, and less spinny than their FH stroke. I'm not sure though, so is that correct observation?

BH loop (to me) = BH topspin. Not BH trying to reverse downspin/under.

It's all about impact. You can still send a very spinny ball whilst still hitting it. CNT players are doing something that is pretty physically demanding and also requires world class timing when they are essentially putting a lot of impact and spin on the ball especially against under. They also have a pretty open angle when opening up.

If your usualy bh is a drive, you have half the equation down. Now you add spin.You can still send a spinny and fast ball depending on angle + technique. If the ball goes long, the hitting to spin ratio is wrong.

Personally if I'm opening up, at most levels underneath 2k usatt, you can go with the safer option of putting more spin instead of power. Just make sure your open up is nice and low, so that it doesn't get slapped right back.

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

Well I have been practicing BH open up everyday for 3 or 4 weeks. It's definitely become more of an asset for me in game now and is quite spinny. But once the topspin-topspin rally begins, my BH becomes purely a flat drive. It's fast, but doesn't have that type of penetrating spin as on the FH.

Is this normal? Or should I be learning to impart heavy topspin even on the BH?

FinnEinar · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
Well I have been practicing BH open up everyday for 3 or 4 weeks. It's definitely become more of an asset for me in game now and is quite spinny. But once the topspin-topspin rally begins, my BH becomes purely a flat drive. It's fast, but doesn't have that type of penetrating spin as on the FH.

Is this normal? Or should I be learning to impart heavy topspin even on the BH?

How long every day?
Like 1 hour, half an hour 2 hours…

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

Maybe 2 hours, 4 days a week for the past 3 or 4 weeks. I can definitely sense a huge improvement and also the people who I have been practicing with saw a huge improvement.

IB66 · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
Well I have been practicing BH open up everyday for 3 or 4 weeks. It's definitely become more of an asset for me in game now and is quite spinny. But once the topspin-topspin rally begins, my BH becomes purely a flat drive. It's fast, but doesn't have that type of penetrating spin as on the FH.

Is this normal? Or should I be learning to impart heavy topspin even on the BH?

Try and learn both !!!
Punch / drive BH (Mima or Trul's style!! not penetrating, really???!!!!) what one of the coaches I play with calls a 'pushing' type BH.
BH topspin with good heavy spin, where the general speed is still fast and complimented by good forward kick is a more demanding stroke, harder to time etc and is probably going to be less consistent. what the coach calls a 'pulling' BH topspin
what I find is that when practicing the BH topspin there are generally average shots, good speed normal spin, then an occasional stroke that has much better timing and feels different, bites the ball, much better spin.

cytivrat · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
But during practice, I still can't consistently do BH loop against topspin. If my partner just blocks for me, I can't loop consistently from the BH. I can drive with power pretty consistently, but not loop. Is there something different about looping against backspin that makes it easier? Maybe because the racket angle is more open? Why is it harder to BH loop against topspin?

How can I improve my backhand loop against topspin?

It is a quite different stroke and you didn't practice it as much as opening loop against backspin, so obviously it won't be easy. So first thing to do - you need to include it into your regular practice. Then there are a lot of differences between one and another. For loop against loop you (well, at least I) need
1) to have shorter movement
2) don't move arm down as much as against backspin
3) try to hit ball earlier, before it reaches highest point (this compensates energy lost due to shorter movements and you still can get speed and spin)
4) you can engage wrist less and still hit the table quite well

and another thing I strongly suggest: record your video and post it inside "video safe thread" or something like that, and you will get a lot of advices from people who know how it should be and how to fix what you have

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

Well I think my BH is a lot less punchy than Mima Ito, but probably flatter than Timo Boll. I would say its a pretty basic backhand drive, maybe like Harimoto but from slightly farther behind the table (because my reaction time is nowhere near his).

Maybe I'll keep practicing the BH loop for 3 or 4 weeks and see if I make any progress.

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

cytivrat said:
It is a quite different stroke and you didn't practice it as much as opening loop against backspin, so obviously it won't be easy. So first thing to do - you need to include it into your regular practice. Then there are a lot of differences between one and another. For loop against loop you (well, at least I) need
1) to have shorter movement
2) don't move arm down as much as against backspin
3) try to hit ball earlier, before it reaches highest point (this compensates energy lost due to shorter movements and you still can get speed and spin)
4) you can engage wrist less and still hit the table quite well

and another thing I strongly suggest: record your video and post it inside "video safe thread" or something like that, and you will get a lot of advices from people who know how it should be and how to fix what you have

Thanks these are good points. In regards to #3, when I try to hit the BH loop, I usually take a step back farther away from the table. I let the ball drop a little bit, otherwise I feel the ball is too high to loop. How do you loop the ball before its highest point? I can't even imagine that.

But yes, I should take some video to get more advice. Sometimes its hard to find somebody willing or able to just block for you. My little club has a lot of quirky/non-standard styles.

cytivrat · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
very good points.

Do you think that BH loop against topspin is a necessary or important stroke to learn?? In game, I usually just hit my BH as a flatter drive-type shot. Even though I can't get too much spin, the BH drive is still very powerful and I win a lot of points with this stroke. Should I focus my attention to learn the BH loop or just keep using the drive?

When I watch CNT players, it seems to me that they also are hitting their BH as more of a drive rather than a loop. Certainly their BH stroke looks shorter, flatter, and less spinny than their FH stroke. I'm not sure though, so is that correct observation?

Basically, it is not strictly necessary (well, there is no strictly necessary thing in amateur sport, it is all up to you) if you have a block/hit/drive good enough to wait for either your opponent make a mistake or let you attack from FH side. It also depends on your style and how you want to play. If you look how non-CNT people inside top-100 or top-200 in the world play from BH (and maybe compare them to CNT players) you will notice that not all of them have top class BH loop against loop, there are blockers, there are those who are looking for fh attack as much as they can, there are those who try, but make many not so enforced mistakes, so world class bh loop to loop is not strictly needed to get to top 200 (well, if you don't want limit yourself with top 200 of the world, then you probably need it )

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

cytivrat said:
Basically, it is not strictly necessary (well, there is no strictly necessary thing in amateur sport, it is all up to you) if you have a block/hit/drive good enough to wait for either your opponent make a mistake or let you attack from FH side. It also depends on your style and how you want to play. If you look how non-CNT people inside top-100 or top-200 in the world play from BH (and maybe compare them to CNT players) you will notice that not all of them have top class BH loop against loop, there are blockers, there are those who are looking for fh attack as much as they can, there are those who try, but make many not so enforced mistakes, so world class bh loop to loop is not strictly needed to get to top 200 (well, if you don't want limit yourself with top 200 of the world, then you probably need it )

Haha, honestly I don't think I will ever surpass 1800 USATT in my lifetime. I really only started playing 8 months ago and didn't expect that I would be taking it so serious until now.

But how about the CNT players? Are they hitting their backhand as a drive or as a loop?

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

For example: In this type of backhand to backhand rally, are they hitting a drive or a loop? It looks pretty snappy to me like a drive, but the stroke also looks longer than Harimoto's drive.

Michael Zhuang · Apr 8, 2022

I think this is a better example. Are they driving or looping on their BH to BH rallies?

Wrighty67 · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
very good points.

Do you think that BH loop against topspin is a necessary or important stroke to learn?? In game, I usually just hit my BH as a flatter drive-type shot. Even though I can't get too much spin, the BH drive is still very powerful and I win a lot of points with this stroke. Should I focus my attention to learn the BH loop or just keep using the drive?

When I watch CNT players, it seems to me that they also are hitting their BH as more of a drive rather than a loop. Certainly their BH stroke looks shorter, flatter, and less spinny than their FH stroke. I'm not sure though, so is that correct observation?

To me, a `’loop’ style shot on BH is only ever an opener vs backspin. If I receive topspin I either try to drive/push taking the ball early and generating position and sometimes pace, or I topspin drive with more spin and less penetration - both are fairly short strokes with slightly different bat angles and swings.

cytivrat · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
Haha, honestly I don't think I will ever surpass 1800 USATT in my lifetime. I really only started playing 8 months ago and didn't expect that I would be taking it so serious until now.

But how about the CNT players? Are they hitting their backhand as a drive or as a loop?

On my non professional opinion, women have it closer to drive, men depend on a distance: closer to the table, shorter and more drive-like movement, but still they add enough spin to get trajectory stable on that insane speed.

Michael Zhuang said:
Thanks these are good points. In regards to #3, when I try to hit the BH loop, I usually take a step back farther away from the table. I let the ball drop a little bit, otherwise I feel the ball is too high to loop. How do you loop the ball before its highest point? I can't even imagine that.

But yes, I should take some video to get more advice. Sometimes its hard to find somebody willing or able to just block for you. My little club has a lot of quirky/non-standard styles.

Well generally it is a lot about racket angle which is defined by wrist. But it is hard to judge without seeing what kind of balls you are dealing with. But if you have time to step back and wait till ball starts falling, then you don't need that too short movement, since you need to give ball more energy

Lazer · Apr 8, 2022

I'm with Wrighty67 on this. A loop is more spin than speed and almost always as a response to topspin You will have more speed than spin. This makes it a drive.
What many people today call "loops" I consider to be drives with lots of topspin...

Cheers
L-zr

Lula · Apr 8, 2022

Hey! i think it is easier if you post a video.

Difference from backspin:
- close the angle more
- go back and forth, so drop the racket less
- the ball comes faster to you? so less time, can not do as big of a stroke

Other tips:
- Move the legs, so you can do the same stroke all the time
- Evaluate the ball that comes and try to chose the correct stroke. Easier if you look at the opponent
- let the ball come close to the racket
- Try to start the stroke from the elbow. Too much wrist/only wrist will make the stroke unsafe

Good luck!

dajdosta · Apr 8, 2022

Michael Zhuang said:
very good points.

Do you think that BH loop against topspin is a necessary or important stroke to learn??

It is not necessary if you have consistent BH drive. There are skills that will gain much more points.
For instance new serve.

Backhand improvement, and advice

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