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  1. ricospin is offline
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    #1

    People who switched from carbon back to wood, how’s it going?

    Hey everyone, I’m in that phase where I’m switching back to all wood from carbon

    I just noticed that I can’t spin as much, nor am I super consistent with carbon. The safety and surety that all wood has is something I’ve neglected.

    While the feeling of immense power is good, I have to face facts- that I do not have the quality to play with carbon yet.


    How has everyone’s experience been going so far? Successful? Or switched to slower carbon settup?

    I’ve been reluctant to switch because I love the vibrations of my Fang Bo B2X over my Ma Lin EO, any of you guys feel this way?

    *I’m also considering to buy infinity vps, because I like the vibrations more.
    Last edited by ricospin; 04-14-2022 at 09:40 AM.

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    #2
    Do you know what rating you are?

    I like both wood and carbon. I love to pull out my MLEO once in a while to hit, but somehow I feel less confident in it. I like the extra stability that carbon adds. I feel like I can really swing hard and feel confident. With the MLEO, when I swing hard, sometimes I feel like the ball itself is affecting the racket too much.

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    #3
    I had a Stiga Offensive CR up until a few weeks ago as well. It had lots of flex and feeling, but when I hit a really hard loop, I feel a little like paper in the wind. I somehow feel more confident with the extra stability.

  4. ricospin is offline
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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Do you know what rating you are?

    I like both wood and carbon. I love to pull out my MLEO once in a while to hit, but somehow I feel less confident in it. I like the extra stability that carbon adds. I feel like I can really swing hard and feel confident. With the MLEO, when I swing hard, sometimes I feel like the ball itself is affecting the racket too much.
    I do not know my rating. Maybe around 1000-1100 or something like that, I've only been playing for a year at OCTTA, and so I still have a good chunk of unforced errors. When I do have moments of brilliance, I hit way above my level- you could say this about anyone, but there are also players who are 1000 because of different things.

    My main thing that's holding me back is unforced errors.

  5. Gozo is offline
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin
    Hey everyone, I’m in that phase where I’m switching back to all wood from carbon

    I just noticed that I can’t spin as much, nor am I super consistent with carbon. The safety and surety that it all wood is something I’ve neglected.

    While the feeling of immense power is good, I have to face facts- that I do not have the quality to play with carbon yet.


    How has everyone’s experience been going so far? Successful? Or switched to slower carbon settup?

    I’ve been reluctant to switch because I love the vibrations of my Fang Bo B2X over my Ma Lin EO, any feel this way?

    *I’m also considering to buy infinity vps, because I like the vibrations more.

    I believe the saying " Once you go black, you won't go back " may be a cheeky way of saying that once one can play well with carbon blade he will not want to go back to regular wood. You will definitely miss the immense power.

    Its like driving a turbo-charged 4.8ltr Ford Mustang GT and then going back to driving your dad's regular 1.8ltr natural aspirated Honda Civic.


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    #6
    I recently moved back to an all wood Violin from my HL5x for the same reasons - I was just more consistent with the all wood blade and had to face that fact. When evaluating them I didn't feel that the HL5 was too fast and I enjoyed the feel of playing with it better - but the results when I was playing matches under pressure were difficult to ignore.

    I certainly plan to keep working towards the carbon as my playing improves, but I have not felt a lack of speed with the Violin despite it not being a particularly fast blade.

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    #7
    @OP. Excellent question which I have been asking myself a lot since I switched to all wood. Thinking about pros and cons I must confess that I really miss the ability to smash with a confidence when using all wood and my block isn't so penetrating, so I guess it's is the extra stability of the carbon. On the other hand I really like the linearity of the wood and I feel like I don't have a speed limit. So in reality if I want to keep a good pace with a wooden blade I have to work hard....but can I constantly do so?
    Meanwhile I love the feel (of most) of my wooden blades and the ease to spin the ball .....but I never had a particular problem to do it with a carbon as well.
    My best results/progress was while playing with various carbon ones, but that was in the era of the previous ball and the main reason I switched to all wood was to compensate for the lack of spin, but am I really compensating ?
    Finally, I guess sooner or later I will come back to a carbon unless I find a wooden which plays as a carbon.
    Phew, I said it....

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin
    Hey everyone, I’m in that phase where I’m switching back to all wood from carbon

    I just noticed that I can’t spin as much, nor am I super consistent with carbon. The safety and surety that all wood has is something I’ve neglected.

    While the feeling of immense power is good, I have to face facts- that I do not have the quality to play with carbon yet.
    Sounds to me like a good call. The fact is that you'll probably have better feel with an allwood blade than with a carbon, and the extra confidence you gain from the better feel means that, in time, you'll probably be hitting harder with the allwood than you would have with the carbon anyway.

    And it's not a "quality" issue. I understand why many folks think it's a quality/skill issue; in other words, that if you're a higher skilled player then you should play with carbon, but you should stick with wood if you're a lower lever player. Honestly, that's absolute bull-feathers! It's simply about what you enjoy playing with and what helps you perform most consistently.

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  9. NDH is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo

    I believe the saying " Once you go black, you won't go back " may be a cheeky way of saying that once one can play well with carbon blade he will not want to go back to regular wood. You will definitely miss the immense power.

    Its like driving a turbo-charged 4.8ltr Ford Mustang GT and then going back to driving your dad's regular 1.8ltr natural aspirated Honda Civic.

    I think these points highlight both sides of the argument to a degree.

    As a junior/young adult, improving through the ranks - I wanted faster and faster and faster (god bless the Speed Glue Era).

    I was rocking a Schlager Carbon with Bryce Speed - Absolute rocket!

    However, as I have aged, and my ability has constantly improved, I've been opting for slower and slower set ups (make no mistake, they are still fast, attacking set ups, but quite a bit slower than the Schlager Carbon days!)

    For the *vast* majority of people on these forums, spin will beat speed 99% of the time.

    The same applies for pretty much all standards until you get to the semi-pro level, where you really need both in buckets full.

    If I looked at a lot of the lower/mid level players in my area, I can guarantee I'd be recommending all wood blades for most of them.

    To use your own analogy, you might have the 4.8ltr Mustang, but if you crash it every time you turn a corner, your Dad's regular 1.8ltr Civic is going to win the race.

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  10. ricospin is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Do you know what rating you are?

    I like both wood and carbon. I love to pull out my MLEO once in a while to hit, but somehow I feel less confident in it. I like the extra stability that carbon adds. I feel like I can really swing hard and feel confident. With the MLEO, when I swing hard, sometimes I feel like the ball itself is affecting the racket too much.

    to piggyback on YEO. I don't like it at all. Something about hitting the sweetspot on that blade has the clearest feedback that it feels too weird.I have hit with it for 20 minutes today, and I did not like it.

    Perhaps I'm not used to it anymore and it's just a matter of getting used to.

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  11. ricospin is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Manto76
    Sounds to me like a good call. The fact is that you'll probably have better feel with an allwood blade than with a carbon, and the extra confidence you gain from the better feel means that, in time, you'll probably be hitting harder with the allwood than you would have with the carbon anyway.

    And it's not a "quality" issue. I understand why many folks think it's a quality/skill issue; in other words, that if you're a higher skilled player then you should play with carbon, but you should stick with wood if you're a lower lever player. Honestly, that's absolute bull-feathers! It's simply about what you enjoy playing with and what helps you perform most consistently.
    To me I think, it probably is a quality issue.

    Carbon makes it harder to spin, and spin=safety and arch so that it lands on the table.

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin
    To me I think, it probably is a quality issue.

    Carbon makes it harder to spin, and spin=safety and arch so that it lands on the table.
    If all you mean is that you need a bit more skill to produce good spin with a carbon blade, then I agree.

    But what many folks seem to mean is that top-level players cannot be competitive with all-wood blades. In other words, the popular myth has become that if you use an all-wood blade that must mean you're a lower-level player. It's that assumption that I'm saying is nonsense.

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    #13
    Hi I'm new to the forum just want to share what I have been taughted and experience.

    Anybody who still in development stage or looking to improve should playing with all wood blade. Being all wood blade mean it's slower especially first few gears to get good result you will need to put more strength. All wood have smaller sweet spot this sweet spot mean you need to be consistent blade is not forgiving as composite blade.

    With this 2 main factors mean if you playing with all wood you will need to improve your stroke to have good impact upon contact both strength and consistency.

    ​​​​​​But in reality players just want the racket that perform best and can use in the long run so they go with the popular and as good as their budget can provide. Which is not wrong as long as you discipline themselves good enough and not make bad play a habit.

    I play both all wood and composite. I have much more confidence on composite blade but I play more on all wood blade. It always feel like the are bigger room for error(bad stroke, bad footwork, bad timing), even it's bad it still have chance to successfully return with composite blade.

  14. NDH is offline
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    #14

    Welcome to the forum @Seacret!

    I have to say, I find it amazing when people say that they play with different blades/set ups, and seemingly change depending on their mood (you are not alone here, there are plenty of others on the forum who do this).

    If you want to improve, changing your set up between sessions has to be the worst thing you can do.

    My advice would be:

    If you want to improve, pick a set up and get used to it - Don't overthink the rubbers/blades (within reason), and focus on training.

    If you simply want to test loads of different blades/rubbers and enjoy that aspect of the game, then go for it - There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

    An All Wood blade is likely the right choice for the *vast majority* of people - If you have to ask for advice, then it'll be an All Wood blade.

    The marketing has led people to believe that Carbon blades are "better", which is simply not true.

    I would hazard a guess that a huge number of people who are "into the equipment" - Meaning they research and have a general interest in it (so all of us on the forum!), would be much better using a Primorac/Korbel All Wood blade with Sriver on FH and BH.

    But.... That's not a new, sexy option for people, and the last time Butterfly advertised Sriver, Ma Long probably wasn't even born!

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    #15
    As I've said in a couple of other threads, 'carbon' and the variety of different fleeces don't necessarily always mean 'more speed'
    So, you can have a slow defensive blade with 'carbon' and still have the wood feel with (hopefully) a larger sweet spot. And why not????

    When I first saw BTY's original TAMCA 5000 blade in the Tees Sport catalogue, when it was 1st released, one of the main selling points was the increased sweet spot size (from memory going back 40+ish yrs!!). Yeah it's a fast blade, but the advertising hype was mainly for speed with more control and bigger (dramatically bigger!!!) sweet spot.

    Like many of you, I have dabbled with a few 'carbon' blades, Acoustic inner, HL5, Viscaria, Joola Perform, Stiga DEF Pro etc, all these blades have different speed ratings, some are very close to all wood feeling.
    Viscaria and HL5 I could still spin with, but I find that its the greater linearity that is the issue, by this I mean that the relationship between how hard you hit the ball and how far it travels increases quite a bit, so you need much more control of your strokes and the force imparted, if you don't get enough spin then the ball flies longer again, which compounds the issue.

    Both the Def Po and Acoustic Inner have very good woody feel.
    At my level, speed isn't quite as important!!! whereas Spin and being able to Control shots are!!!

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    #16
    To NDHI trained with all woods and using carbon for serious match or before the competition only. But this is back in my youth. What the benefit is using not so fast all wood blade is like consistency training. Carbon blade is more forgiving.

    My coach said it's easier to play with carbon blade and have bad posture/swing stroke habit. It's quite a long time ago back in 38mm era and my coach is typical oldschool chinese ex-provincial titles short pips 1 side penhold. And I find it's true I start with carbon blade and 2 sides japeuro rubber. I have habit of doing bad stroke(not follow through, not in optimal position, not hitting the sweet spot etc.).

    I'm not saying beginner must not play carbon but to learn and develop it's better to start with all wood. But for adult that play for fun or recreational activities it's not necessary I also recommend viscaria tenergy combo to my beginner friend it's more forgiving and he won't frustrated as much as using chinese rubber also he still can sell it at good price if he really quit.(alc blade is good even for beginner it has that distinct feel when you hit the sweet spot not that monotone as pure carbon. But all wood still give more that sweet spot feel)

    The point is if you can afford it not only money but also time and dedication. all wood blade going to reward you a good habit of hitting the ball that eventually boost your confidence. But if you already have good fundamental or just play for fun just go with blade you like. And the reason I play with pg7 more is because I haven't buy new pair of rubber for h301 yet but my durable chinese rubber on pg7 is still in good shape.that's all
    I still miss the speed glued sriver. It was so good for my bh

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    #17
    Just want to add some personal experience to this topic, which might also be controversial: not all all-wood blades are provides better feeling or better control.

    A few years ago I bought a Stiga Maplewood NCT V since it was going out of production, and my coach has been using one for years, so I wanted to test it out. It felt hard AF, so I gave it to a co-worker who also uses one and want to have a backup blade. And I recently tried out two Koki Niwa Wood 90th anniversary edition blades, and comparing them to my w968 and the newly arrived SDC Valkyrie, I would say it feels harder and not as controllable. But if you search online you'll see most people saying how good Stiga Maplewood NCT V is for looping, how the flex of the blade spins the ball and cataples it. And just look at how Koki Niwa plays, he switched back to the all wood blade for a reason. But why does it contradicts what I feel when I tried the blade.

    Before I continue, this is how I define a blade with perfect control: landing the ball on the spot with the spin and speed the player wanted, all the time, with minimal effort.

    Most all-wood blades have lower top speeds compared to most composite blades, so if you want to hit a ball to a spot with the same speed you want, you'll have to put in more effort (turning your body, tensing up your arms and fingers, etc.), and with more effort you lose more and more control of your body (over tension, bad form, etc.). But we all know that to achieve the best shots you want your body to be in a "relaxed" form, so do you really have more control with an all-wood blade while trying to hit a powerful shot? I don't think so.

    But on the other hand, most all wood blades can produce slower shots much easier than composite blades, because with a composite blade you need your body to be much more precise on the touch, and to be more precise you need to put in more effort, and more effort means less control.

    IMO, the "control" aspect of a blade is not an objective property, it's more of a subjective feedback of the player using it. So what I'm trying to say is you need to know what style you prefer playing, is it "spin and location" or "speed and power"? You need to choose the correct equipment to match your play style, and the one that matches the best is the one that has the most control, for you.

    So, like @NDH said above "If you want to improve, pick a set up and get used to it - Don't overthink the rubbers/blades (within reason), and focus on training." Also adding to that, know your play style, then pick your setup accordingly.

    Btw, I've seen this mentioned in a lot of Chinese forums, and videos on Bilibili: faster blades pairs with slower rubbers, and slower blades pairs with faster rubbers. Or what I call it: balance.

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    #18
    There is a lot of overlap between wood and carbon blades, so it's a little weird to talk about them like there are only two clearly separate options.

    Sure we can say with some confidence it's easier for an amateur to spin with an allplay than with a primorac carbon. But only because spin requires fast bat speed, and if you make a little too much contact with the primo at high speed the ball will go a mile. So all else equal you will swing slower and make less spin. It's not a feature of the blade. Boll has no problem spinning with a primorac carbon.

    When you get into the middle range of blade speeds it's less clear. Is it easier to spin with a Clipper (all-wood!) than an Acoustic outer carbon? I don't think so. And soft carbon blades like MLSC, WSC even more so.

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    #19
    I agree with most statements with the current progress and n technology manufacturer have achieved fast all wood blade and slow composite blade. I mean for 5/7 plies all woods have common structures limba/ayous/ayous or koto(limba)/spruce/ayous or something like that. One thing these all wood blade give distinct feel upon contact that you hit it in sweet spot which a lot of modern composite blade also have but still not as distinct as these all woods. And chinese method they had kid start on simple all wood blade so they can develop good stroke. Good stroke easily adapt to new equipment it won't be too late to switch to composite blade. I'm not sure how reliable of the bilibili video but when I trained with chinese coach in china this is how things work. Every kids started with all woods and changed to carbon if they want to later.
    ​​​​​​
    They trained this 25 years ago. Afaik they still trained like this 10 years ago

  20. ricospin is offline
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeGaGa
    Just want to add some personal experience to this topic, which might also be controversial: not all all-wood blades are provides better feeling or better control.

    A few years ago I bought a Stiga Maplewood NCT V since it was going out of production, and my coach has been using one for years, so I wanted to test it out. It felt hard AF, so I gave it to a co-worker who also uses one and want to have a backup blade. And I recently tried out two Koki Niwa Wood 90th anniversary edition blades, and comparing them to my w968 and the newly arrived SDC Valkyrie, I would say it feels harder and not as controllable. But if you search online you'll see most people saying how good Stiga Maplewood NCT V is for looping, how the flex of the blade spins the ball and cataples it. And just look at how Koki Niwa plays, he switched back to the all wood blade for a reason. But why does it contradicts what I feel when I tried the blade.

    Before I continue, this is how I define a blade with perfect control: landing the ball on the spot with the spin and speed the player wanted, all the time, with minimal effort.

    Most all-wood blades have lower top speeds compared to most composite blades, so if you want to hit a ball to a spot with the same speed you want, you'll have to put in more effort (turning your body, tensing up your arms and fingers, etc.), and with more effort you lose more and more control of your body (over tension, bad form, etc.). But we all know that to achieve the best shots you want your body to be in a "relaxed" form, so do you really have more control with an all-wood blade while trying to hit a powerful shot? I don't think so.

    But on the other hand, most all wood blades can produce slower shots much easier than composite blades,

    IMO, the "control" aspect of a blade is not an objective property, it's more of a subjective feedback of the player using it. So what I'm trying to say is you need to know what style you prefer playing, is it "spin and location" or "speed and power"? You need to choose the correct equipment to match your play style, and the one that matches the best is the one that has the most control, for you.

    So, like @NDH said above "If you want to improve, pick a set up and get used to it - Don't overthink the rubbers/blades (within reason), and focus on training." Also adding to that, know your play style, then pick your setup accordingly.

    Btw, I've seen this mentioned in a lot of Chinese forums, and videos on Bilibili: faster blades pairs with slower rubbers, and slower blades pairs with faster rubbers. Or what I call it: balance.
    Interesting take. I definitely agree with all the things you said. Would it be then better to try and use carbon with an even slower rubber? I have H3 Neo. Something slower would be TG2 Neo.

    and I’ve actually tried it someone else’s fang Bo b2x and it felt slow. Like an off-/all+ slow.

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