Can't topspin good with new rubber?

Sometimes yes.

You've switched from a tacky style rubber to a tension style rubber, they behave very different, I don't know why they suggested you to switch to a different type, but I would say you should switch back to hurricane 3 (get a new sheet of course), since clearly you don't like the change.

I found that everybody I ask what kind of rubbers I should use will recommend to me the same rubbers they personally use.
Many people think along the line of : " If it's good for me - it is good for everybody " !
WRONG
If you can play well with a sticky Hurricane 3, stick with it

lodro said:

I found that everybody I ask what kind of rubbers I should use will recommend to me the same rubbers they personally use.
Many people think along the line of : " If it's good for me - it is good for everybody " !
WRONG
If you can play well with a sticky Hurricane 3, stick with it

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I kind of agree and don't agree. This can go both ways. Don't change equipment unless you have a concrete need.

You hit through the rubber every single time you hit with 50% of your capacity? You might want to change.
Your rubber is slippery in your conditions? You might want to change.
You heard that rubber is fantastic? Ehm......

Winggie said:

Hi everyone. I have been using the orange sponge hurricane 3 for a few years until my trainer from my new club told me that the rubbers had completely worn off so I had to replace them. They recommended me the Andro Rasanter R42 for my forehand so I bought that one and replaced my Hurricane 3 with it, but for some reason after replacing the rubbers topspinning doesn't really work me for. Now I hit them very hard (very loud sound when hitting) while I use the same technique as before. Does switching rubbers have influence on my technique or something?

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The sponge of your new rubber is much easier to compress. Sponge works similar to a spring in your car. If you have hard linear springs you need more force to compress them. It will take a bigger bump to bottom out the spring than with a softer spring.

Now you can imagine what happens with your rubber. You are trying to put the same amount of force into a softer spring, and you just bottom out way earlier.

I think that you can adjust this by applying the force by "brushing more" rather then "hitting through" the ball.

(brokenball disclaimer, I know this is not scientifically correct, I remember reading your post about it, but I have no other vocabulary at the moment to explain this to the OP, and this should be easy enough to visualize)

I find that its all about length of arm swing. If you really swing big and hard, then H3 is a good choice. If you have a more conservative swing, then ESN rubber makes more sense.

Michael Zhuang said:

I find that its all about length of arm swing. If you really swing big and hard, then H3 is a good choice. If you have a more conservative swing, then ESN rubber makes more sense.

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I don't agree with that. Only thing that swing length gives is more distance to accelerate the paddle. I think that the only things that matter are:

• racket speed
• how efficiently you can transfer energy / power / the thing (brokenball please help me with which verb to use here) into the ball as speed and spin

After a couple of years of playing I no longer apply with some of the things that EmRatThigh shows in his videos but he embedded numerous times a video of a chinese grandpa who can brush the ball incredibly hard with minimal swing...

Michael Zhuang said:

I find that its all about length of arm swing. If you really swing big and hard, then H3 is a good choice. If you have a more conservative swing, then ESN rubber makes more sense.

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Length of arm swing doesn’t matter, or at least not in the given scenario. All Chinese rubber are require the arm to be pulled with a lot of acceleration to make it work the bes
etc.

you aren’t necessarily wrong either, a big swing is usually a fast one, but you don’t need a big swing to swing fast.

if you watch table tennis gan, you’ll see what I mean.

Yep. If H3 worked for you before, don't change to a totally different rubber type. If you're not totally happy with it? Think of what exactly you need to change and perhaps use a harder/softer sponge of the H3 for it to work with your game. The Andro Rasanter R42 is as far away from H3 as possible in feel and function, so I understand that it doesn't work for you, and the technique required for these two rubbers are totally different.

Other rubbers you could look into, with similar properties are for example: DHS Skyline TG2/3 NEO, Yinhe Big Dipper, LOKI N80, 729 Battle MAX Pro.
But if H3 feels fine, stick with it. With the right technique you can produce so much more spin than with the R42.

mocker88 said:

Yep. If H3 worked for you before, don't change to a totally different rubber type. If you're not totally happy with it? Think of what exactly you need to change and perhaps use a harder/softer sponge of the H3 for it to work with your game. The Andro Rasanter R42 is as far away from H3 as possible in feel and function, so I understand that it doesn't work for you, and the technique required for these two rubbers are totally different.

Other rubbers you could look into, with similar properties are for example: DHS Skyline TG2/3 NEO, Yinhe Big Dipper, LOKI N80, 729 Battle MAX Pro.
But if H3 feels fine, stick with it. With the right technique you can produce so much more spin than with the R42.

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Mocker,

Is the N80 more similar to H3 (slow and spinny) or more similar to Big Dipper (bouncier and clicky)? I have heard people say both, so I'm not sure what to believe.

Michael Zhuang said:

Mocker,

Is the N80 more similar to H3 (slow and spinny) or more similar to Big Dipper (bouncier and clicky)? I have heard people say both, so I'm not sure what to believe.

Click to expand...

Now I use to boost both of them with two layers of Seamoon, but I feel that the N80 is near BD in spin properties, and N80 is a bit harder than the 38deg BD, more like the 39deg BD then. Anyway the N80 feels like more of a forehand rubber for me and BD is easier for my backhand because the ball sinks in better, giving more dwell time. The BD is more of a do-it-all rubber, and N80 is a H3N with a softer touch and better control, and easier to block incoming loops. But these two are in the same area, and good rubbers both of them.

Obviously Winggie is going to need a different stroke. The R42 and H3 are much different rubbers. I bet the R42 is just as spinny or spinnier than the H3 but the R42 is probably much faster than the H3 is to spin to speed ratio is lower.

Kuba Hato is right about brushing more. The more you brush the more the spin and less the speed. This applies to all normal inverted rubbers. It is just a matter of degree.

Also, you shouldn't worry too much about bottoming out. It will happen but normally this will only happen when making a flat hit kill shot. In his case you only care about landing the ball with as much speed as possible. You don't care about spin. It should be obvious that if you brush the ball then the impact force is more across the surface of the top sheet, not directly into the sponge. The force across the top sheet will stretch it and when it snaps back it will add to the tangential force for more torque and more spin.

This could explain how it works in a way. With a harder Chinese rubber you get what you put in your strokes. With a tensor rubber like R42 you'll get more bounce than the power you put in your stroke. The main difference is that when you brush the ball hard with say R42, the sponge and top sheet are too soft and you don't get that direct response from the rubber as you get from a H3 that has a harder sponge as well as a less elastic top sheet. I've tried some "hybrids" like Nittaku Sieger PK50 and XIOM TAU II, and sure there is spin potential that's way better than a soft Rasanter, but they misses the H3 kick.

Surely someone else have a better explanation for this, but these are my observations

Mocker88's graphs are nonsense.
I bet Mocker88 had NO CLUE what the force there is between a paddle and ball.
Sometimes I think this forum is a bunch of the blind leading the blind.

brokenball said:

Mocker88's graphs are nonsense.I bet Mocker88 had NO CLUE what the force there is between a paddle and ball.Sometimes I think this forum is a bunch of the blind leading the blind.

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You are completely right! So please, find a new community and leave us blind people be.Thanks☺️

The "brush more" that is required with tacky rubbers is true but it mostly applies to when lifting the ball up with heavy underspin.

Most Pros that use H3 rubbers hit the ball in a linear and horizontal kind of way, and actually by brushing the ball as little as possible but using more hitting power instead, it's hard to explain.

If you focus on trying to "brush more" with H3, the effect will be that the ball will be slow, this is why again, it only applies when lifting the heavy underspin, but not in regular rallies when more forward hitting force is required which requires a completely different technique than what most players in Europe are using where they mostly spin the ball upward rather than using a more forward hitting force.

This video explains quite well but a bit complicated and I'm not the best at explaining it either.

That using the H3 and when the proper technique is being used, the H3 has a range of ball acceleration directions as opposed to a regular tensor rubber where it's using only one direction.

So in essence, the traveling of the ball after the loop is being executed can be seen almost the same from both the tensor and the tacky rubbers.

But why is it that so many times you watch players face Fan Zhendong, and when they try to block FZD's loop, the ball goes into the net and then they start looking at their racket in dismay and gobsmacked wondering what is happening and why it goes into the net?

It's because like already said, The H3 has a range of ball acceleration directions and the force can be directed almost downwards as opposed to a regular tensor rubber where it's using only one direction.

bzing said:

The "brush more" that is required with tacky rubbers is true but it mostly applies to when lifting the ball up with heavy underspin.

Most Pros that use H3 rubbers hit the ball in a linear and horizontal kind of way, and actually by brushing the ball as little as possible but using more hitting power instead, it's hard to explain.

If you focus on trying to "brush more" with H3, the effect will be that the ball will be slow, this is why again, it only applies when lifting the heavy underspin, but not in regular rallies when more forward hitting force is required

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yes!!

It isn’t all about brushing the ball. Open up your angle and add impact to the ball and also spin forward. This is the modern Chinese way to play. Also to hit the ball at the off the bounce (riskier), at the peak (safer)

PingBirdPong said:

You are completely right! So please, find a new community and leave us blind people be.Thanks☺️

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So a few of you want to remain ignorant. Fine. Don't read my posts. Easy.
BTW,
What really makes a ball move is an impulse. An is the force as function of time integrated over a duration of time. In the case of TT, the contact time. When the ball first hits the rubber the force is zero but the force increase as the ball penetrates the rubber. Eventually all the kinetic energy is absorbed in the ball, top sheet, sponge and blade and the ball is stopped relative to the paddle. Then the ball rebounds when as the force causes the ball to accelerate away from the paddle. As the ball, top sheet, sponge and blade start to restore to their original shape, the force they apply on the ball decreases and the speed of the top sheet, sponge and blade are not able to stay in contact with the ball so no more force is applied. A simulation can be done that integrates the force between the ball and the top sheet over the contact time. That is the impulse. It is the impulse that causes the change in momentum of the ball.

The radius of a TT ball is about 20mm. If the direction of the impulse is such that it goes 10 mm from the center then some of the translational momentum will be lost but the torque integrated over the contact time will result in a rotational momentum which will cause the ball to spin. If the impulse goes through the ball 15 mm from the center there will be more torque and spin and less translational momentum.

There are all sorts of variation on this theme. Sometimes you want a low spin loop. In this case brush the ball. Other times you want to make a loop kill so more speed is required.

I know, I just wasted 5 minutes of my time.

mocker88 said:

This could explain how it works in a way. With a harder Chinese rubber you get what you put in your strokes. With a tensor rubber like R42 you'll get more bounce than the power you put in your stroke. The main difference is that when you brush the ball hard with say R42, the sponge and top sheet are too soft and you don't get that direct response from the rubber as you get from a H3 that has a harder sponge as well as a less elastic top sheet. I've tried some "hybrids" like Nittaku Sieger PK50 and XIOM TAU II, and sure there is spin potential that's way better than a soft Rasanter, but they misses the H3 kick.

Surely someone else have a better explanation for this, but these are my observations

Click to expand...

I like this graph. The thing is, your explanation is on different level than the explanations of people who attack it. I recently stumbled over this video and I think it applies nicely... Watch from 1:41 to 2:10.

The different levels decouple )