Practice with old celluloid balls?

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

Does anybody think its better to practice with the old celluloid balls?

The old balls have more spin, so it takes better technique to loop and block against the old celluloid balls. So if you can loop the celluloid ball, then you assume that you can loop the plastic ball even more easily.

Anybody else think that practicing with the celluloid ball makes sense?

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

No, I play with them sometimes. Spin is definitely easier with the old ball. To play with them too much is probably a bad idea. I play with them only to remember the old days…

Cheers
L-zr

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

Spin is heavier with old ball. So when somebody slices to you or loops to you, there is more spin on it. It takes cleaner technique to loop a underspin shot. And it takes better technique to block a heavy loop.

So wouldn't that prepare you better once you want to play with the plastic ball?

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

No and no, It’s easier to lift the old ball, and the feeling is slightly different. I wouldn’t say it’s harder but you need to close the racket a little bit more when blocking topspin shots. I for one do not want to get too used to the “old ball feel”…

Cheers
L-zr

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

Why is it easier to lift the old ball?

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

Because it reacts better to spin.

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

You mean its easier to brush and grip the ball?

But the opposite would be true as well. If the old ball spins and grips the rubber more, then the underspin would cause the ball to go down into the net more easily upon contact.

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

If you counter the ball without spin, yes but the old ball is smaller and lighter so it becomes easier to turn the spin.

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

Maybe you are right, I should do some more training with plastic ball and see if its actually harder to life underspin.

But when I see a celluloid ball being sliced to me with heavy underspin, it just seems more intimidating than with a plastic ball. And when I slice to my opponent with the celluloid ball, I see their loops go into the net a lot more.

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

You know, the intention with the ball change was to slow down the game. But since it became harder to spin the ball everybody was going for speed instead so practically the game became faster. Maybe your opponent(s) need to learn how to topspin better.😊

Cheers
L-zr

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

Anybody else have any experience with celluloid ball vs plastic ball?

Which ball is easier to loop against underspin?

dajdosta · Apr 24, 2022

With new ball it is easier to clear the net but loops have less spin so it is easier for opponent to return your loop.
With old ball you could do slow spinny high loop and get away with it. With new ball it's easier to counter these.
Maybe after practicing with old ball there is a danger of developing bad habit of lazy loops that will not work with new ball.

brokenball · Apr 24, 2022

I have still have lots of old celluloid balls. I don't notice a difference. It shouldn't be noticeable because the ratio of the mass of the paddle to the ball is still very high. Some of my old celluloid balls about 10 years old and have become shiney and smooth.
While I agree that in theory the old celluloid balls are easier to spin. I would like someone to do the math and determine how much easier instead of making a big deal out of it. The difference isn't much. I think this difference if offset by the fact the new plastic balls aren't as smooth as the old celluloid balls so the new plastic balls can be gripped by the top sheet a little easier.
.

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

dajdosta said:
With new ball it is easier to clear the net but loops have less spin so it is easier for opponent to return your loop.
With old ball you could do slow spinny high loop and get away with it. With new ball it's easier to counter these.
Maybe after practicing with old ball there is a danger of developing bad habit of lazy loops that will not work with new ball.

It’s also easier to overshoot with the new ball. The difference is obvious.

Cheers
L-zr

Michael Zhuang · Apr 24, 2022

dajdosta said:
With new ball it is easier to clear the net but loops have less spin so it is easier for opponent to return your loop.
With old ball you could do slow spinny high loop and get away with it. With new ball it's easier to counter these.
Maybe after practicing with old ball there is a danger of developing bad habit of lazy loops that will not work with new ball.

This is opposite what lazer said. In my experience, dajdosta is right. The new ball is easier to lift the ball and clear the net. The old ball requires cleaner technique to loop the ball.

So it seems logical to me that practicing with old ball would give you some advantage.

Noppen Test · Apr 24, 2022

2.3.3 The ball shall be made of celluloid or similar plastics material and shall be white or orange, and matt.

Then why do amateur low level tournaments also use plastic ?
Not exactly because they care so much about the environment but because most amatuers want to live in fantasyland & use what the pros use.

I know of a state championship in USA that always used celluloid balls as official ball after 2014.

And for other tournaments they gave the option to two (or four) players involved in each match, a choice of celluloid or plastic ( I heard almost all of them chose celluloid).

BTW Adham Sharara did the same thing initially with 38 mm ball to pass the 40 mm ball after the first attempt to pass 40 mm ball failed giving this option as a peace offering (by promising to keep teh 38 mm ball also legal. It was for a while it seems and I do not know when it was removed from ITTF rules & which AGM or EGM approved removing the 38 mm ball, since this is a "rule" change & requires approval by 75% of general council of 228 nations of ITTF at an AGM or EGM)

Of course the Maximum allowed Pip Aspect Ratio reduction (from 1.3 to 1.1) failed as rule change in 1995 BGM & was passed as a regualation in Durban in 1998 by a closest possible margin of two votes (something like 19-17). The same strategy was also used by ITTF to pass with the Pip Density Reduction change by passing it as a Regulation of 2003 (How many members of even the ITTF's executive council, let alone the general council of ITTF and general playing population even know what this Pip Denisty Reduction regulation is, let alone its enormous ramifications in the aftermath of 1998 Durban change & 40 ball change of 2000 & the 40+ change of 2013 after 2003)

Noppen Test · Apr 24, 2022

brokenball said:
. I would like someone to do the math and determine how much easier instead of making a big deal out of it. The difference isn't much.

Do the math from whose perspective ? Form the perspective of 70% players and their representatives who control the ITTF ?
Jorg Rosskopf did the math.

I don't know what advanced calculus & Einstenien physics you use, but my simple common sense math shows that , for a level playing field and for better spectataor presentation with longer rallies also with slight de-extermination of choppers, the correct value would be a maximum allowed sponge thickness of 1.7 mm (not even including boosting and speed-gluing meeaning ITTF can look the other way when this goes on like it is normal & not illegal ) and a maximum allowed pip Aspect Ratio of 1.5

Thanks for asking.

dajdosta · Apr 24, 2022

What were Rosskopf conclusions?

Noppen Test · Apr 24, 2022

dajdosta said:
What were Rosskopf conclusions?

Google 2018 WVC or ask TTDaily's Dan who was there

Lazer · Apr 24, 2022

Noppen Test said:
2.3.3 The ball shall be made of celluloid or similar plastics material and shall be white or orange, and matt.

Then why do amateur low level tournaments also use plastic ?
Not exactly because they care so much about the environment but because most amatuers want to live in fantasyland & use what the pros use.

I think you are seriously wrong here, I would much rather use the old ball, but it’s hard to get ahold of no tournaments use them…

Practice with old celluloid balls?

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