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  1. brokenball is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    softer rubbers generate way less spin,
    Where is your proof? You are just repeating BS you have heard from other players.
    BTW, my Rakza 7 Max soft is very spinny with the right strokes.

    so definition wise, it can't be grippier if reduces in spin rotation, correct?
    Who's definition? Why can't a soft rubber be covered with a tacky top sheet?
    You are only spreading misinformation. What out. Biden's ministry of truth will get you.

    Lodro is closer to the truth when he mentions that it is the person that makes the spin with the right stroke.

    The truth is that normal inverted rubbers have a pretty high coefficient of friction so they will stop any slipping or spinning of the ball relative to the top sheet almost instantly as in microseconds. My high speed camera detects NO slipping but it only used a 2000 fps rate so the ball could slip for a few microseconds and not be detected.
    The rotation of the ball, assuming top spin, and the tangential impact of the paddle stretches the top sheet a bit.
    It is the snapping back of the top sheet that adds extra tangential torque ( spin ) to the ball. If the ball leaves the top sheet because the stroke is too fast then some of this "snap back" torque will be lost. So what optimizes the stretching of the top sheet and the ability of it to return it's energy back to the ball.

    Again, the Chinese call a loop a "pull ball" or ,La Qiu in pinyin. This is pronounced la cho. The idea is to have the feeling of dragging the ball with the top sheet forward and above the net. Hitting the ball makes the ball leave the paddle too soon. However Chinese sponges aren't that springy. They are very dense or heavy. Tit is mostly the skill of the player that allows them to apply more torque/spin to the ball.

    One thing I would do test different rubbers it to take some of the scraps after cutting, remove the sponge and see how springy the top sheet is alone. I would also do the same thing with the sponge attached. If the sponge doesn't stretch then the top sheet will not stretch much except for what is allowed by the pips.

    If I were designing TT rubbers and I wanted the sponge to be light and springy, it would find a way to make the air/gas pockets as big but consistent as possible. Air or gas is very good at returning energy. I would make he top sheets springy too so the ball could stretch across the rubber. I would make the pips longer because this would allow the stop sheet to stretch across the surface. However, there would be a trade off because making the pips longer would mean the base of the top sheet thinner and perhaps not as durable.

    I just wasted 20 minutes of my time.

  2. lodro is offline
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    #22

    re. I just wasted 20 minutes of my time. 😂

    not really. I got most of it.
    Most players would love to know the technical and engineering tricks involved in making rubbers and and blades and making them work
    but just can't be bothered and rather go and have a good hit-up.

    Of course, if you want to go "philosophical" , the Buddha said : "" Ignorance is the cause of all suffering"" 😆

    Thanks


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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Where is your proof? You are just repeating BS you have heard from other players.
    BTW, my Rakza 7 Max soft is very spinny with the right strokes.


    Who's definition? Why can't a soft rubber be covered with a tacky top sheet?
    You are only spreading misinformation. What out. Biden's ministry of truth will get you.

    Lodro is closer to the truth when he mentions that it is the person that makes the spin with the right stroke.

    The truth is that normal inverted rubbers have a pretty high coefficient of friction so they will stop any slipping or spinning of the ball relative to the top sheet almost instantly as in microseconds. My high speed camera detects NO slipping but it only used a 2000 fps rate so the ball could slip for a few microseconds and not be detected.
    The rotation of the ball, assuming top spin, and the tangential impact of the paddle stretches the top sheet a bit.
    It is the snapping back of the top sheet that adds extra tangential torque ( spin ) to the ball. If the ball leaves the top sheet because the stroke is too fast then some of this "snap back" torque will be lost. So what optimizes the stretching of the top sheet and the ability of it to return it's energy back to the ball.

    Again, the Chinese call a loop a "pull ball" or ,La Qiu in pinyin. This is pronounced la cho. The idea is to have the feeling of dragging the ball with the top sheet forward and above the net. Hitting the ball makes the ball leave the paddle too soon. However Chinese sponges aren't that springy. They are very dense or heavy. Tit is mostly the skill of the player that allows them to apply more torque/spin to the ball.

    One thing I would do test different rubbers it to take some of the scraps after cutting, remove the sponge and see how springy the top sheet is alone. I would also do the same thing with the sponge attached. If the sponge doesn't stretch then the top sheet will not stretch much except for what is allowed by the pips.

    If I were designing TT rubbers and I wanted the sponge to be light and springy, it would find a way to make the air/gas pockets as big but consistent as possible. Air or gas is very good at returning energy. I would make he top sheets springy too so the ball could stretch across the rubber. I would make the pips longer because this would allow the stop sheet to stretch across the surface. However, there would be a trade off because making the pips longer would mean the base of the top sheet thinner and perhaps not as durable.

    I just wasted 20 minutes of my time.
    I agree with you. IMO “spinny” is a very misleading and unscientific term to use on rubbers. It it the an attribute of a shot, and depends on so many aspects. It is a result. However, grippy is an attribute of a rubber. But the “grip” cannot be well measured. The rubber is more grippy if it is more tacky, but also can be more grippy in other ways, like no tack but uneven surface. In conclusion, I think grippy is loosely connected to friction. The more grippy a rubber is, in the right circumstances, the more spin it will produce in a shot, compared to a less grippy rubber in the same circumstances. Therefore, scientifically, spinny is a very inaccurate term.
    But there is another part to this. If Yasaka decided to put all scientific terms on their website, nobody would understand, and they wouldn’t get the picture to a cool dude hitting a beautiful topspin. I think that Yasaka used the term “spinny” and “grippy” to ring a bell with a lot of people that only use these terms. These are also the people who buy without thought. Maybe Yasaka used the two terms under the presumption that people are hitting the same ball with the same blade using the same stroke at the same position with the same environment.
    The phenomenon you described doesn’t require a high speed camera. Just put a cut off piece of rubber on a table, and push a ball onto it. When you rotate the ball, you see the pimples deform/bend over/stretch. Then you feel a force that wants the ball to do counter rotation, that is how spin is created.
    Modestly, Leo

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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    But there is another part to this. If Yasaka decided to put all scientific terms on their website, nobody would understand,
    Yes they would. In the end there is only the normal and tangential coefficient of restitution.
    All this other stuff is just confusion to keep the ignorant, ignorant.

    and they wouldn’t get the picture to a cool dude hitting a beautiful topspin.
    Do you think that cool dude will make you a better player?

    I think that Yasaka used the term “spinny” and “grippy” to ring a bell with a lot of people that only use these terms.
    But what do these terms really mean? They just confuse, mislead or lie.


    These are also the people who buy without thought.
    They are thinking the rubber will make them a better player. It won't.

    Maybe Yasaka used the two terms under the presumption that people are hitting the same ball with the same blade using the same stroke at the same position with the same environment.
    No! They are just trying to BS you.

    The phenomenon you described doesn’t require a high speed camera. Just put a cut off piece of rubber on a table, and push a ball onto it.
    That isn't very precise. What are you measuring?

    When you rotate the ball, you see the pimples deform/bend over/stretch.
    Your eyes must be much better than mine and everyone else's. My high speed camera can't see that at 2000 FPS.

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  5. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    Where is your proof? You are just repeating BS you have heard from other players.
    BTW, my Rakza 7 Max soft is very spinny with the right strokes.

    Its stupid comments like this that made me leave this forum few years ago.
    what BS did I hear from other players? you need some soap in your mouth and learn to talk with respect to people you don't know....
    I guess you will just never change

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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    Its stupid comments like this that made me leave this forum few years ago.
    what BS did I hear from other players? you need some soap in your mouth and learn to talk with respect to people you don't know....
    I guess you will just never change

    You made a comment that "softer rubbers generate way less spin"
    Where is your proof!? You are just repeating something some other clueless person has said.
    Most people on this site are completely clueless and keep repeating myths told by other clueless people.
    It is the people that want to remain clueless that never change. I have found the TT forums to be full of them.
    The TT manufacturers take advantage of their ignorance with their deceptive advertising.

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    #27
    If softer rubbers don't generate less spin then do they generate more spin or same spin as harder rubbers assuming it's the same player that's using them?

  8. lodro is offline
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    You made a comment that "softer rubbers generate way less spin"
    Where is your proof!? You are just repeating something some other clueless person has said.
    Most people on this site are completely clueless and keep repeating myths told by other clueless people.
    It is the people that want to remain clueless that never change. I have found the TT forums to be full of them.
    The TT manufacturers take advantage of their ignorance with their deceptive advertising.

    When first decided to experiment with pimples out (just a phase) I was also told that i would get no grip and would not be able to create any spin. I found though that was exactly BS. I remember Using the 729 802-40-mystery III and could create enough spin in serve to piss off my opponent and plenty of spin to do backhand flicks.
    Ideally we should find a way of preventing the manufacturers using their BS to sell their wares on us. We would all have to agree on some
    commonly accepted parameters and numbers.
    This will never happen of course. I said it before, Manufacturers do not want us to be able to compare apples with apples and this is why
    number like Speed 12 - Control 10 - spin 11 etc mean absolutely NOTHING

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    #29
    Personally I prefer the harder rubbers which generate more rotation and therefore more technique.

  10. lodro is offline
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by parin_90
    Personally I prefer the harder rubbers which generate more rotation and therefore more technique.


    probably just a matter of semantics BUT harder rubber generate neither rotation nor more technique.
    However I am on your side 😁, Using the proper brushing technique harder rubbers are very good at creating great rotation of a ball


  11. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    You made a comment that "softer rubbers generate way less spin"
    Where is your proof!? You are just repeating something some other clueless person has said.
    Most people on this site are completely clueless and keep repeating myths told by other clueless people.
    It is the people that want to remain clueless that never change. I have found the TT forums to be full of them.
    The TT manufacturers take advantage of their ignorance with their deceptive advertising.

    If you willing to part take in a civil discussion, I can entertain you.

    soft can absorb more into the sponge, but the acceleration out of the sponge is equally slower.
    You can call it rotation.

    to answer you - my proof? Its in my hands, my feeling of the ball.
    My proof? its in my opponents, when receiving the ball.
    Of course a users understanding of equipment is based on their ability to use it and to feel it.
    You give a beginner a hard rubber, they will say the soft one has more spin. That is because they can't control/feel the hard one.

    If soft is more spinnier, then why in the world are everyone (Pros) going way harder than ever before?
    Any one in the top 200 that you know of using soft rubbers?

    So please put your assumption back to where it comes from. I'm not repeating any person as per your claim, and these are not myths, but personal experience.
    If you don't value my input and claim it being useless, then atleast talk civilly. Unless more of you have rotten this forum and this is the norm now?

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    Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 05-06-2022 at 03:05 AM.
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    If you willing to part take in a civil discussion, I can entertain you.


    I am civil. I haven't called you any names or USDC would jump all over me.
    I am talking physics.

    soft can absorb more into the sponge,
    This is an example of what I am talking about.
    This is nonsense.
    It makes NO difference whether the sponge is hard or soft. All the kinetic energy is absorbed by the paddle and ball when the ball is stopped relative to the paddle. When the ball is stopped relative to the paddle the kinetic energy is transferred to potential energy minus some frictional/damping losses.

    but the acceleration out of the sponge is equally slower.
    It depends on the sponge. Not all hard sponges or soft sponges are the same. It really depends on how "springy" the sponge is.

    You can call it rotation.
    Rotation only happens when you make eccentric ( off center ) contact with the ball. The more off center or eccentric the stroke is, the more spin will be created.

    to answer you - my proof? Its in my hands, my feeling of the ball.
    My proof? its in my opponents, when receiving the ball
    People are not calibrated machines. Opinions don't count.
    I can show you one of my videos where I am looping just fine with Yasaka Rakza soft Max.

    Of course a users understanding of equipment is based on their ability to use it and to feel it.
    Again, opinions don't count. Facts do.

    You give a beginner a hard rubber, they will say the soft one has more spin. That is because they can't control/feel the hard one.
    I repeat what I said above. Only facts matter. Opinions don't.

    If soft is more spinnier, then why in the world are everyone (Pros) going way harder than ever before?
    Are they? Or or the paid to advertise.

    Any one in the top 200 that you know of using soft rubbers?
    I would be most are using rubbers in a narrow range of medium hardness and they care more about the coefficient of restitution than whether the rubber is hard or soft. There is such a thing as too soft and too hard. There is a "Goldilocks" zone where most people will find it is just right.

    So please put your assumption back to where it comes from.
    I am not the one assuming anything. I challenge the BS I see from the TT manufacturers advertising and what people repeat.

    I'm not repeating any person as per your claim, and these are not myths, but personal experience.
    You are not a calibrated machine. You only have your opinion. I have posted a video of me playing with Rakza 7 soft max.
    Let's see your spin.

    [/quote]
    If you don't value my input and claim it being useless, then atleast talk civilly. Unless more of you have rotten this forum and this is the norm now?

    [/quote]
    It is just an opinion. Let's see video.
    Let see some testing like PathFinderPro did over 10 years ago.

    A question for you. If harder is better then why doesn't Andro make a R55 or R60?

    In the end it is the stroke that counts.

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    #33
    I wish people would stop referring to the sponge hardness as rubber hardness. I guess sponges contain some amount of rubber but it's really confusing for uninitiated people to understand what you are talking about. Is it the complete sheet? Topsheet? Sponge? Which one?

    There are "rubbers" that don't even come with a sponge but still generate some amount of spin, so where is your sponge hardness in those cases?

    Why don't you talk about how the rubber topsheet hardness relates to a rubbers spin capability? I would call that rubber hardness not the absolutely nonsensical discussion about sponges.

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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwill
    I wish people would stop referring to the sponge hardness as rubber hardness. I guess sponges contain some amount of rubber but it's really confusing for uninitiated people to understand what you are talking about. Is it the complete sheet? Topsheet? Sponge? Which one?

    There are "rubbers" that don't even come with a sponge but still generate some amount of spin, so where is your sponge hardness in those cases?

    Why don't you talk about how the rubber topsheet hardness relates to a rubbers spin capability? I would call that rubber hardness not the absolutely nonsensical discussion about sponges.

    I think it is because some rubbers top sheets are the same, and just paired with different hardness of sponges. So people tend to apply them together.
    some models, the top sheet pips are indeed different, but with the above, taking the same top sheet with different sponges (back in the days, you can buy them and glue them together yourselves), then you can have a better comparison.

    Then equally one can also compare thin to thicker sponges (of same hardness sponge and same topsheet)

    any ways, there are physics professors around, they know more than coaches

    TTT

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    #35
    Indeed, sponge hardness is just that.

    @brokenball, you do provoke by using derisive language. Easy to escalate from there. Like you I would consider it useful to ground these discussions in measurements. Coefficient of restitution, coefficient of friction. Create mechanized scenarios to arrange for ‘ceteris paribus’ and measure velocity, rotations per second, expulsion layency by analzing high-speed cam snap; all thet. Yet I fully realize that measurements (objectivized reality) do not equate experience (subjectivized reality). You do too, up to the point of offering anecdotal evidence (footage of you looping).

    I, like many, have to get by with a decent, but in the end ever imperfect, technique an less than perfect athletic prowess and stamina. Aging and injuries also play a role. In the face of all that, I still have to bend the ball to my will when looping. To create a flight curve that makes it clear the net and land in the table - barely, ideally. I need to do that confidently, and it’s that confidence that builds from experience. There’s subjectivity there, even though I put in many hours to mechanize, to train my autonomous sensory an motoric systems.

    I’ve played with rubbers from which I felt the ball slip when counterlooping after a few weeks. That undermines confidence.

    I see where that talk of grip comes from, and also how interpreting your opponent’s level of difficulty (or lack of such) plays a part in boosting or undermining confidence. In TT a lot, if not everything, is level-relative. It makes little sense, to me, to discuss material properties in absolute terms. Soft rubbers aren’t for me, my body tells me; but they work fine for many, including Lebesson who’s not to sneeze at. Extreme hard rubbers seem to work for mant top level players, and work well for me - but a notch below, I found, is my sweet spot on the related bunch of curves.

    And it’s very interesting how hard-sponged, but soft-feeling rubbers fit in there. If Andro sponsored me, I wouldn’t mind R53. They dont’t, and I choose a medium-hard sponge with a firm (and thickish) topsheet (that lasts a near eternity, in comparison) instead. Subjective, certainly. That’s what I am, a vat of human experiences.

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    #36
    Yoass, I think also fair to add, many top players do choose the "hardest" and then using boosters to bring it a touch softer.
    But such softer is stay way harder compared to say Rakza 7 Soft.

    DHS now sales them almost at every degree, and 37 compared to say 39 and 41 (boosted and unboosted) is very easy to tell.
    And yes, you are right, skills/technique is very important. I know some girl that uses DHS both side and can't spin the ball to save her life. Her coach spent a year to convince her to change to Fastarc G1, and now her shots have more quality and spin.
    But then, I go into World Top 100 juniors, I only see T05 Hard, D09C, H3 in the training hall. The only soft one will be determined by how much layers of booster they use 😋
    TTT

  17. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zwill
    I wish people would stop referring to the sponge hardness as rubber hardness. I guess sponges contain some amount of rubber but it's really confusing for uninitiated people to understand what you are talking about. Is it the complete sheet? Topsheet? Sponge? Which one?

    There are "rubbers" that don't even come with a sponge but still generate some amount of spin, so where is your sponge hardness in those cases?

    Why don't you talk about how the rubber topsheet hardness relates to a rubbers spin capability? I would call that rubber hardness not the absolutely nonsensical discussion about sponges.
    Yes! The hardness of the rubber does depend on both sponge hardness and top sheet( pimple) hardness.
    Modestly, Leo

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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    I think it is because some rubbers top sheets are the same, and just paired with different hardness of sponges. So people tend to apply them together.
    some models, the top sheet pips are indeed different, but with the above, taking the same top sheet with different sponges (back in the days, you can buy them and glue them together yourselves), then you can have a better comparison.

    Then equally one can also compare thin to thicker sponges (of same hardness sponge and same topsheet)

    any ways, there are physics professors around, they know more than coaches

    Physics professors know more that coaches in theoretical physics. Coaches are way better at teaching TT.

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    Modestly, Leo

  19. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    Yoass, I think also fair to add, many top players do choose the "hardest" and then using boosters to bring it a touch softer.
    But such softer is stay way harder compared to say Rakza 7 Soft.

    DHS now sales them almost at every degree, and 37 compared to say 39 and 41 (boosted and unboosted) is very easy to tell.
    And yes, you are right, skills/technique is very important. I know some girl that uses DHS both side and can't spin the ball to save her life. Her coach spent a year to convince her to change to Fastarc G1, and now her shots have more quality and spin.
    But then, I go into World Top 100 juniors, I only see T05 Hard, D09C, H3 in the training hall. The only soft one will be determined by how much layers of booster they use 😋
    Boost H3 and get a powerhouse, boost T05 hard, and lose 80 bucks!

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    Modestly, Leo

  20. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    Boost H3 and get a powerhouse, boost T05 hard, and lose 80 bucks!

    Why do you think so. Have you tried it? One of the Polish Superliga and Bundesliga players admitted to use exactly that after visit in the camp in China.

    Reference:

    (I know this channel is often disregarded, but this time it is Adrian Więcek talking not the channel owner)

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