Question for people with decent BH topspin

one thing that helps me is to lower my head to almost at the ball level. My eyes are near where the ball bounces, and somehow this helps me get lift and acceleration through the ball.

I've only just seen this thread, and I was going to post some video of my backhands, before I realised @Richie has already posted a Liam Pitchford video which is very good!

I did want to highlight one thing though..... Size matters (sorry guys).

By this, I mean your own height and size, and your physical ability.

Pitchford has very long arms (as do I) - Which is great for playing shots outside of our body with plenty of time.

Not very good for playing those quick, over the table shots like Harimoto.

Also... Whilst the current trend in the Pros is to have that punchy, fast backhand (Harimoto and the Chinese spring to mind)..... I just don't think it's anywhere near as effective unless you are playing a Pro.

My recommendation would be to develop a backhand loopy shot (like Timo Boll for example) - Stay away from the less spinny punchy backhand.

If you have a Spinny backhand loop type shot, you'll be a MUCH better player and win more points at every level.

Originally Posted by Way Zooted

Our lead coach (Gary Fraiman) is a firm believer in sandpaper and/or hardbat to help with technique and feel for table tennis stokes. Definitely has helped me a lot. Maybe give it a try

This is an interesting take.

I've played some very good sandpaper players (the best being the Scottish champion and last 32 at the World Ping Pong Championships).....

it's such a strange game, playing against a sandpaper player when you are playing with "normal" rubbers.

I find playing with sandpaper bats/hard bats so much harder, because I've never trained like that.

I've never really considered the technique to be transferable either - I play with quite a lot of wrist snap, which is a big no no with a sandpaper bat!

What's your experience been like?

Originally Posted by NDH

This is an interesting take.

I've played some very good sandpaper players (the best being the Scottish champion and last 32 at the World Ping Pong Championships).....

it's such a strange game, playing against a sandpaper player when you are playing with "normal" rubbers.

I find playing with sandpaper bats/hard bats so much harder, because I've never trained like that.

I've never really considered the technique to be transferable either - I play with quite a lot of wrist snap, which is a big no no with a sandpaper bat!

What's your experience been like?

It is more difficult. Sandpaper forces you to make a stroke on the ball. So you do have to move into position and have proper stroke timing. High level players are able to get some additional spin from the wrist but no rubber still makes you to use a proper stoke with the blade.

With sandpaper, topspin to topspin is more like lifting an underspin ball in table tennis. Looping an underspin ball is easier, so it is a bit strange in that sense. You get very little grip so when reversing the spin there is a lot of slippage on the sandpaper.

Originally Posted by Way Zooted

It is more difficult. Sandpaper forces you to make a stroke on the ball. So you do have to move into position and have proper stroke timing. High level players are able to get some additional spin from the wrist but no rubber still makes you to use a proper stoke with the blade.

With sandpaper, topspin to topspin is more like lifting an underspin ball in table tennis. Looping an underspin ball is easier, so it is a bit strange in that sense. You get very little grip so when reversing the spin there is a lot of slippage on the sandpaper.

Hmmm, if I trained with a sandpaper bat, it would mess me up completely.

I know the likes of Andrew Baggaley stop playing with reverse rubber for a month or two before the big tournaments so he can really get the difference in technique down.....

Perhaps it can help at the entry level of TT, but it's virtually a different sport (a much harder one! 😂)

Originally Posted by NDH

I've only just seen this thread, and I was going to post some video of my backhands, before I realised @Richie has already posted a Liam Pitchford video which is very good!

I did want to highlight one thing though..... Size matters (sorry guys).

By this, I mean your own height and size, and your physical ability.

Pitchford has very long arms (as do I) - Which is great for playing shots outside of our body with plenty of time.

Not very good for playing those quick, over the table shots like Harimoto.

Also... Whilst the current trend in the Pros is to have that punchy, fast backhand (Harimoto and the Chinese spring to mind)..... I just don't think it's anywhere near as effective unless you are playing a Pro.

My recommendation would be to develop a backhand loopy shot (like Timo Boll for example) - Stay away from the less spinny punchy backhand.

If you have a Spinny backhand loop type shot, you'll be a MUCH better player and win more points at every level.

Since the relax vs retract question was so clearly and resoundingly answered (STAY RELAXED ), I'm happy to see the discussion's broadened to BH topspin technique more generally.

@NDH , I'd love to hear why you think the more spinny/pully (in another thread I saw a pull/push distinction) BH stroke is more effective at the non-pro level. Is it because non top-level players simply tend to have a lot of trouble managing spin, whereas sheer speed can be more effective vs pros who can handle spin easily? Or because vs non pros you probably have more time for the stroke? I tend to think too often in terms of which stroke looks more pleasing but not at this level of effectivenss vs different level players.

Also, can you or anyone put their finger on what exactly distinguishes these two types of strokes? The punchy vs loopy BH topspin? Clearly both can have topspin in them, in both the forearm and wrist fly forward in a singly motion, both can be played with relatively closed racket. Is it the backswing, weight transfer,elbow position?

Final question, key points for performing this more loopy/spinny timo boll version? To me it looks quite different to pitchford's for example

Originally Posted by NDH

This is an interesting take.

I've played some very good sandpaper players (the best being the Scottish champion and last 32 at the World Ping Pong Championships).....

it's such a strange game, playing against a sandpaper player when you are playing with "normal" rubbers.

I find playing with sandpaper bats/hard bats so much harder, because I've never trained like that.

I've never really considered the technique to be transferable either - I play with quite a lot of wrist snap, which is a big no no with a sandpaper bat!

What's your experience been like?

Strange indeed. Two players in the neighbour club enjoy to play sand-paper now, when its off-season. One of them is much older than me, and a higher level than me. First set against him with sand-paper, I lead 4:0 and then it was 4:10 :-). I won the match 2:1, we played only to 2. But next time I lost badly 3:0. The balls are always the same, he is catching my spins. This time he caught all, zero mistake on BH. It is a really good training. And good experience. An alegory, I fight with knife, he bare-handed, and he still wins...

He promised to play me with his normal bat, but when he tried his bat, he said it is too different. He needs time to get back. That confirms your point that it is really different. I myself played 1 minute with it. It was 1 minute too much...

Originally Posted by TaiHaoPingPong

Since the relax vs retract question was so clearly and resoundingly answered (STAY RELAXED ), I'm happy to see the discussion's broadened to BH topspin technique more generally.

@NDH , I'd love to hear why you think the more spinny/pully (in another thread I saw a pull/push distinction) BH stroke is more effective at the non-pro level. Is it because non top-level players simply tend to have a lot of trouble managing spin, whereas sheer speed can be more effective vs pros who can handle spin easily? Or because vs non pros you probably have more time for the stroke? I tend to think too often in terms of which stroke looks more pleasing but not at this level of effectivenss vs different level players.

Also, can you or anyone put their finger on what exactly distinguishes these two types of strokes? The punchy vs loopy BH topspin? Clearly both can have topspin in them, in both the forearm and wrist fly forward in a singly motion, both can be played with relatively closed racket. Is it the backswing, weight transfer,elbow position?

Final question, key points for performing this more loopy/spinny timo boll version? To me it looks quite different to pitchford's for example

Ok, I’m on my phone so I’ll try my best to answer in order.

At virtually every level (certainly every level that most of us will play), spin is more important than speed.

That’s not to say speed isn’t important, you need to combine them both.

But those quick backhand punchy type shots you see in the woman’s game and the Chinese team for example, are just not as effective at every amateur level.

Those backhands are virtually no different to your typical “knocking up” before a match, and unless you are incorporating it into your game plan (likely to get you into position to attack on your forehand….) it’s just not as effective.

The minute you start looping those backhands, generating more spin (akin to a forehand loop), it’s a compete game changer at the amateur level.

There is no wing that opponents can pin you on, and most people aren’t good enough to counter big top spin, so they end up blocking and playing a little more passive.

Pitchford has unique abilities due to his size and reach. His backhand makes the most of those long arms, and many people won’t be able to replicate that.

Timo’s backhand (and overall, controlled attacking style) is the one I personally think is the best foundation to base your game on if you want to win at the amateur level.

Good control, good spin, loopy on both sides, and doesn’t rely on running around to his forehand at the earliest opportunity.

As for the difference, in my head, I see Timo’s BH stroke to be a little longer, bigger weight transfer and more “loop like” vs the Chinese style that is a little more punchy, less arc and less spin.

For clarity, I’m not saying that’s bad in those situations, and you often won’t have the time to play expansive backhand loops in fast paced games…… But we aren’t playing at that level, and even a very very very good amateur level does not need to be reliant on those punchy backhands.

I spent an entire summer about 8 years ago just hitting backhands. All summer.

You end up developing your own stroke, and from there you can tweak it.

But in my head, I just wanted to get more of that arc that you often see on the forehand, and I can 100% say that it’s improved me as a player no end!

Fully agree. I think the fundamentals of sandpaper and regular table tennis is very similar. In both you use your body in different ways to propel the arm. But the contact is different.

I saw the ping-pong (sandpaper) world champs in 2017. One TT pro (Filip Szymanski) was there and did a good job. He didn't do any practice before. He actually played defensively, was pretty cool to watch. But the reason that many of the players there could do so well, without having played with sandpaper their whole lives is because their technique in regular TT is so steady. Plus they already have good feeling for the ball so they really just needed to become more familiar with the different contact.

There is no escaping the fundamentals and experience for improvement. You can try different things to get there, some are a bit gimmicky imo, but trying different things and making it more fun is also great. And there is no one size fits all, so those different approaches may very well work. But a long consistent journey wins the race imo, except it's endless .

Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

If you look at the footage of your BH, you are kind of banging into the back of the ball. It is a little like a slap rather than a drive or a loop. It is way better than it was just a few weeks ago when it was all punch and every stroke was entirely different from any of the previous ones. But, there is a reason why the longest sustained clip has you BHing 7 balls and that rally has 2 nets in it. When your BH is more consistent, hitting at that intensity, you will be getting a few 100 shots before you miss.....at least when there is a pro on the other side returning the ball to you that is what should happen.

Thanks for your feedback. Now I know 100 uninterrupted strokes is considered decent. Thanks for setting the standard. BTW, what is the reason that will make me more consistently?