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    #1

    Blade recommendation for off- to low off carbon blades in penhold

    I’m interested in something of a slower carbon to so I get the benefits of carbon but still maintain good control.

    I currently use stiga infinity with h3 on both sides. I love the blade but I’m curious about how a slower carbon would feel.

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    #2
    Definitely Butterfly Innerforce ZLC or Harimoto ZLC, it's rated a tad above the 1400Hz frequency or so... for most of the users I know who have measured the Innerforce ZLC frequency. You could also find a cheaper alternative made by other manufacters though. I think Michael Zhuang has one Harinoto ZLC clone in shakehand made by Stuor in nearly the same composition coming up to him soon and they make it in CS P.

    Butterfly never talk about the actual compositions of their blades, some claim they do Limba - Limba -ZLC - Ayous core for that one as the Apolonia one also, but it seems to be more of a Limba - Ayous - ZLC - Ayous core according to the indie blade makers.

    https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/40010...94008477%21sea

    BTY Innerfore ZLC is the blade Felix Lebrun currently uses with 2 D09C, but he's sponsored by Butterfly as his brother Alexis since years now...

    https://www.megaspin.net/store/defau...force-l-zlc-cs
    Last edited by OldUser; 05-22-2022 at 05:13 AM.

  3. ricospin is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OldUser
    Definitely Butterfly Innerforce ZLC or Harimoto ZLC, it's rated a tad above the 1400Hz frequency or so... for most of the users I know who have measured the Innerforce ZLC frequency. You could also find a cheaper alternative made by other manufacters though. I think Michael Zhuang has one Harinoto ZLC clone in shakehand made by Stuor in nearly the same composition coming up to him soon and they make it in CS P.

    Butterfly never talk about the actual compositions of their blades, some claim they do Limba - Limba -ZLC - Ayous core for that one as the Apolonia one also, but it seems to be more of a Limba - Ayous - ZLC - Ayous core according to the indie blade makers.

    https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/40010...94008477%21sea

    BTY Innerfore ZLC is the blade Felix Lebrun currently uses with 2 D09C, but he's sponsored by Butterfly as his brother Alexis since years now...

    https://www.megaspin.net/store/defau...force-l-zlc-cs

    I find 1350hz pretty fast already. My fb2x is that frequency- I find that the arc on the ball is a lot flatter because of its stiff nature.


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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin

    I find 1350hz pretty fast already. My fb2x is that frequency- I find that the arc on the ball is a lot flatter because of its stiff nature.

    So you have to stay in the OFF- range, not in the OFF range, 1350 Hz is considered being the higher OFF- limit. You need something in between the 1200 to 1350 frequency range, in that case a Donic Waldner Senso Carbon, it's nothing more than an Appelgreen Allplay + 2 carbon layer, I've used one and measured it 1285Hz after the sealing process. If not fast enough, the WSUC then

    https://www.tabletennis11.com/other_...nso-carbon-pen

    https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/1005002246091634.html


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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OldUser
    Definitely Butterfly Innerforce ZLC or Harimoto ZLC, it's rated a tad above the 1400Hz frequency or so... for most of the users I know who have measured the Innerforce ZLC frequency. You could also find a cheaper alternative made by other manufacters though. I think Michael Zhuang has one Harinoto ZLC clone in shakehand made by Stuor in nearly the same composition coming up to him soon and they make it in CS P.

    Butterfly never talk about the actual compositions of their blades, some claim they do Limba - Limba -ZLC - Ayous core for that one as the Apolonia one also, but it seems to be more of a Limba - Ayous - ZLC - Ayous core according to the indie blade makers.

    https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/40010...94008477%21sea

    BTY Innerfore ZLC is the blade Felix Lebrun currently uses with 2 D09C, but he's sponsored by Butterfly as his brother Alexis since years now...

    https://www.megaspin.net/store/defau...force-l-zlc-cs

    Yeah, pretty sure Harimoto ALC or ZLC fits the bill for slower carbon. The one you linked is exactly the one I got. But the ALC version is probably less bouncy and more control oriented.


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    #6

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    #7
    Actually any innerforce ALC or ZLC with thin core blade will do it, the W968 or BTY Ovtcharov are innerforce ALC fast blades because their ayous core is thicker, not only blade composition matters, the thicker the core and the blade in general, the faster it will be. The regular inner ZLC or ALC blade is in the 5.7/5.8 mm thickness, W968 and Ovtacharov are above the 6.0 mm mark and it does A LOT ! to bring more speed.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin

    I find 1350hz pretty fast already. My fb2x is that frequency- I find that the arc on the ball is a lot flatter because of its stiff nature.

    The FB2X is more than 6.0 mm thick, it's actually the same as a W968 or an Ovtcharov. All DHS X blades (as the H301X for example) are just regular versions with thicker core to get more speed for the P Ball.


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    #9

    Butterfly never talk about the actual compositions of their blades, some claim they do Limba - Limba -ZLC - Ayous core for that one as the Apolonia one also, but it seems to be more of a Limba - Ayous - ZLC - Ayous core according to the indie blade makers.
    Speaking of this.
    LEmuria seems to think BTY koto blades use a koto-alc-limba-kiri pattern.

    Stuor seems to think its a koto-alc-ayous-kiri pattern.

    Do you know which is actually right?

    Of these 2, would the Lemuria be faster? I believe limba is harder than ayous, and that medial layer is the difference

  10. ricospin is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Speaking of this.
    LEmuria seems to think BTY koto blades use a koto-alc-limba-kiri pattern.

    Stuor seems to think its a koto-alc-ayous-kiri pattern.

    Do you know which is actually right?

    Of these 2, would the Lemuria be faster? I believe limba is harder than ayous, and that medial layer is the difference

    I've seen many viscaria clones either use kiri like bty or ayous. I haven't seen a limba core blade, because more often than not, it's always seen as top ply.

    My guess is that since they maybe can't get everything/replicate exactly what butterfly has, they have to substitute other materials to make it feel the same.


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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Speaking of this.
    LEmuria seems to think BTY koto blades use a koto-alc-limba-kiri pattern.

    Stuor seems to think its a koto-alc-ayous-kiri pattern.

    Do you know which is actually right?

    Of these 2, would the Lemuria be faster? I believe limba is harder than ayous, and that medial layer is the difference

    I told myself I would give up, but a lot of people read the threads and I would really like to stop perpetuating myths (at the risk of sounding like another forum member 😅). You keep on insisting on this, after I clearly told you, and presented proof, that the medial layer on Butterfly blades is Ayous, not Limba. Here's one more piece of evidence for you:



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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic
    I told myself I would give up, but a lot of people read the threads and I would really like to stop perpetuating myths (at the risk of sounding like another forum member 😅). You keep on insisting on this, after I clearly told you, and presented proof, that the medial layer on Butterfly blades is Ayous, not Limba.
    Before you posted this, I took the magnifier glass and checked my Viscaria and the medial ply really looks like ayous, both according your previous description in another thread, and also when compared with the medial ayous ply in my Vodak Horejsi ALC. I didn't feel entitled to post it. So am glad you did :-)

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    #13
    Palio V1
    Yasaka Ma Lin Soft Carbon
    Donic Waldner Senso Carbon
    Sanwei HC5S
    Joola Rossi Emotion

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    Last edited by nicedream; 05-22-2022 at 04:09 PM.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic

    I told myself I would give up, but a lot of people read the threads and I would really like to stop perpetuating myths (at the risk of sounding like another forum member 😅). You keep on insisting on this, after I clearly told you, and presented proof, that the medial layer on Butterfly blades is Ayous, not Limba. Here's one more piece of evidence for you:

    So would you say that Stuor has the correct pattern and Lemuria got it wrong?

    In that case, would the Lemuria clone be faster than the Stuor? Because limba is harder than ayous?

    Ps: i don't not believe you. On the contrary, you sound like you know what your talking about. But everybody else says limba. So you're like David Einhorn calling Lehman bankrupt before anybody else did.

    Last edited by Michael Zhuang; 05-22-2022 at 04:24 PM.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    So would you say that Stuor has the correct pattern and Lemuria got it wrong?

    In that case, would the Lemuria clone be faster than the Stuor? Because limba is harder than ayous?

    Ps: i don't not believe you. On the contrary, you sound like you know what your talking about. But everybody else says limba. So you're like David Einhorn calling Lehman bankrupt before anybody else did.
    You may want to check this thread.

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  16. ricospin is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by OldUser
    Actually any innerforce ALC or ZLC with thin core blade will do it, the W968 or BTY Ovtcharov are innerforce ALC fast blades because their ayous core is thicker, not only blade composition matters, the thicker the core and the blade in general, the faster it will be. The regular inner ZLC or ALC blade is in the 5.7/5.8 mm thickness, W968 and Ovtacharov are above the 6.0 mm mark and it does A LOT ! to bring more speed.

    So essentially what I got from this is, a thin innerforce style
    blade and try and get something that’s 5.7-5.8mm?


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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ricospin

    So essentially what I got from this is, a thin innerforce style
    blade and try and get something that’s 5.7-5.8mm?

    That sounds like a good setup. Which blade will you get?


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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by hipnotic

    I told myself I would give up, but a lot of people read the threads and I would really like to stop perpetuating myths (at the risk of sounding like another forum member 😅). You keep on insisting on this, after I clearly told you, and presented proof, that the medial layer on Butterfly blades is Ayous, not Limba. Here's one more piece of evidence for you:


    This is a nice picture. I don't really know what to look for, but presumably the medial layer looks like ayous?

    Do you have the same photo like this for the innerforce style blades?

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    #19
    To get this thread back on track any PG.13 users want to chime in?

    4+1 should be slower than 5+2 right?

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    This is a nice picture. I don't really know what to look for, but presumably the medial layer looks like ayous?

    Do you have the same photo like this for the innerforce style blades?
    Michael, check this.

    Let's keep it dry :-) 1 last time.

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