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  1. mocker88 is offline
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    #21
    This carbon-hunt is a bit funny. If you buy a fast Butterfly carbon blade and put on some Dignics 05 or Tenergy 05 MAX, and have played for say less than 5 years. Of course you have a huge problem. But there are wooden blades that are as fast as all these carbon blades as well. So if you slap the Butterfly rubbers on these wooden blades, you will still have a lot of trouble.

    The biggest problem is that non experienced players, use setups made for more advanced players, and they get "bounced" away. Many players/parents want to take shortcuts to get ahead, but the only thing they do is prohibiting themselves/their kids to learn proper technique and prepare them to be able to handle these setups in the future.

    I have a friend whose children play table tennis since a year back. The kids are 7 and 9 years old, and he asked a coach what rubber he should buy for them. Tenergy 05 MAX was the answer. Because the coach himself plays Tenergy 05. And the youngest already had a fast Yasaka Offensive blade to put these rubbers on. These kids must have the opportunity to practice their technique for some years before even thinking about these kinds of rubbers and blades.

    Now the youngest plays with Sanwei Fextra Allround and Sanwei Ultra Spin on both sides instead and feels that he for the first time has control over the game, have to work to get the ball over the net and is practicing his technique.

    Now we perhaps moved away from the topic, but I think this is important and it could have something to do with all these carbon thoughts I guess.

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    Last edited by mocker88; 05-24-2022 at 08:26 PM.

  2. Kuba Hajto is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mocker88
    Well. I need some sort of stiffer, quite fast blade for my boosted DHS H3-ish rubber on forehand. I have tried a lot of different blades and among these a hard Sanwei V5 PRO all wood blade as well. This one works quite fine with these rubbers, but I tend to come back to my Yinhe V14 PRO ALC blade. It's not the fastest, but it fits my playing style and my rubbers. This is the one rubber that I get the most out of my brush loops, and at the same time have quite good feeling in the short game as well. So until someone comes up with a better idea, I really need my carbon blade

    Welp. I have had similar approach. The thing I bounced away off Carbon blades and Hurricane rubbers is that with my current skill level and my current physique (with lungs messed by two covids) I cannot reliably play the ball over the table. Imagine ball 10 cm over the net. After switching to all wood blade I can play 70-90% of those balls reliably, with hard chinese rubbers and carbon blades, that was a nono. Probably just my technique is messed up, but I think this is exactly what OP means. When 1m+ away from the table I do not really care about what blade is used as long as it is reasonably fast. For some reason with slower all wood blade I can more reliably hit through the sponge.

    Keep in mind, this is just a personal observation, do it with what you will, don't treat this as an absolute truth, I am open for discussion.

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  3. latej is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by superbackhand
    it is 90% about technique and skill. for 90% of club players.
    Hi superbackhand, welcome to the forum.

    Your post is short, but imo, it's true. Equipment matters to some degree, and in the universe within this degree, we can discuss with increasing finesse (and great joy) about what and when is appropriate. And then you come and tell us that our universe is only 10% of all the universe. I like that.

  4. JustANoob is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by latej
    Hi superbackhand, welcome to the forum.

    Your post is short, but imo, it's true. Equipment matters to some degree, and in the universe within this degree, we can discuss with increasing finesse (and great joy) about what and when is appropriate. And then you come and tell us that our universe is only 10% of all the universe. I like that.

    Yea but there is only so much we can actually discuss other than equipment.

    How many of us are qualified to critique other people's techniques or games? Or tactics deployed in pro's games? Hell, I even avoid to give my opinion on my own equipment cause I think my level is too low to give reliable information.

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  5. Richie is offline
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    #25
    I wonder if anyone has actually claimed that they "need a carbon blade"..

    It has been said on this forum time and time again and is painfully obvious that equipment plays a small part in performance (assuming the equipment is of the relative standard). I'd think it plays a very little part in improvement if we assume the player is using a standard setup. I'd say it plays a bigger part the better you become, because then you want to chase those small edges that will further benefit your performance.

    I think a carbon blade rewards really fast swings and as a beginner you've most likely not figured that out yet and you might compensate because of the speed of the blade. But regardless of what you use, if you don't learn the basics well and practice a lot you won't improve no matter what you use.

    If people want to mess around with equipment and talk about all the small details about the wood types etc, then why not? It's fun to learn things, just don't expect much difference in your performance. And any increase in performance that might occur one session could be because of numerous other reasons. Like maybe you by accident got things more right, maybe you slept a bit better etc. I guess it's also fun to own equipment that pros use, nothing strange about that.

    I played with an acoustic for many years then switched to TB alc. I swapped between them a few times in practice and in league matches. The result was pretty much identical. My teammate has done the same. Switched between a 7 ply heavy all wood blade and a few different carbon blades. He's beaten 2300 rated swedish players several times in practice no matter what he uses, but he does argue he likes the feeling of some more than others. Performance is near identical, but some feel better or are more suited for certain things. So might as well go with what feels good and suits your strengths and when you get used to that it's difficult to justify more switching.

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  6. IB66 is offline
    says Table Tennis England Level 1 coach
     
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    #26
    A blades speed characteristic is more to the point, fast is fast regardless of composition, slow is slow regardless of composition.
    Generally a slower speed characteristic is considered better for developing players but isn’t necessarily a hard and ‘fast’ rule !!!

    It seems that the general manufacturing trend is biased more towards faster as far as the use of carbon, ALC, and other weaves is concerned, they just make more blades with a faster speed characteristic than slower blades with some form of fleece or carbon incorporated into the blades composition.
    Perhaps this is more to do with sweet spot and consistency for a blade with a higher speed characteristic?
    Because an all wood blade with All-round speed rating is easier for a player to control is there any need for ALC or carbon to be incorporated?? Does it actually add anything??

    Personally, if I can have a blade with an increased sweet spot size with the addition of carbon / glass fibre / ALC or whatever to achieve this, whilst maintaining the speed characteristic that I can control and use to best effect must be all good!!!
    How much the sweet spot is increased is another thing!!

    On the ‘perception’ side of things, faster is usually perceived as ‘better’ a faster production line or manufacturing process. Fast cars and motorbikes - exciting / sexy!!! It’s kind of ingrained into our sub consciousness that faster is better!!! Perhaps this is another factor why carbon is usually associated with faster speeds, and of course more speed combined with control comes with a hefty price tag!!! And expensive has just gotta be better!!!!🤣😂😀




  7. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeGaGa

    This is just not true at all... I have a friend who used to be in Hebei provincial team, so not top national player in China. He now plays here in the states in NCTTA, and he's got a USATT rating around 2500, still not top national player. He uses a composite blade, and I really doubt you can say that he shouldn't be using one.

    Also, it's wrong to say all wood blades have more control than composite blades, it really depends on the material and construction. There's no perfect blade or rubber that fits everyone, because we're all unique human beings. There's also no one blade or rubber that can do it all, it's always a compromise among all the characteristics.

    Agreed.
    But I think it has something to do with age. The older players started with wooden blades, so they like wood more. The new players love the speed and power of carbon.
    I started to play with carbon, and I still can’t get used to a slower blade.
    I think it’s more of a personal choice. Some people like wood, and play better with it. A lot of people love carbon, and play better with that.
    Nobody can judge which one is better.
    Achieve your dreams, or die trying.

  8. Doum is offline
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    #28
    The first time i played with my ALC blade i loved the feeling, speed and control. Like i found the blade i was looking for. I don't know if i need it but i certainly love it!

  9. lodro is offline
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    #29
    This sentence was part of the opening statement and in itself proves just how silly this
    all is :
    "Of course composite materials can bring a lot for the sweet spot enlargement and better control, like the Zylon in the ZLF innerlayer blades, the Glassfiber, but carbon is way too much unless you add at least 2 strong and thick layers of ayous or limba to compensate its too much strong reaction properties. Better play with an all-wood blade then """"

    The """conclusion""" Better play with an all-wood blade then !! is a stupid, and unjustifiable
    shortcut in my opinion.

    If one can achieve the same with a wooden blade as with a ALC' ZLC using 2 Layers of Limba etc. - I will go for the composite blade every time, actually, I do.

    A composite blade's advantage over wood is not only a bigger sweet spot, there are other advantages, one of them is less sensitivity to humidity and temperature fluctuations.
    A composite blade will keep its "straightness" much better than a wood blade and I have never had any of my comp-blades bending like a Uri Geller spoon but had many bad experiences with plain wooden blades.

    Summing up: There IS justification for A N Y blade if I like it and it feels good and i can play with it. 😁

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  10. OldUser is offline
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    #30
    Quote Originally Posted by olzetezkarzo
    france traditionally always rejected carbon.
    it's not a coincidence that the players you mention lebesson and gauzy are both from france.
    how far in europe this trend is followed I'm not sure.
    but in the area I've seen high level players with persson powerplay, samsonov alpha, waldner senso v1, rossi emotion, waldner senso carbon....
    and they never change the blade.

    chinese/hong kong high level players I've seen mostly use viscaria.

    so it all comes down to where the player comes from which indicates what the coaches told them to do when they were starting.

    Ok so you're wrong sir: all the women's in the national team are using carbon blades, Apolonia for Pavade and Chasselin, TB Spirit and more recently Viscaria Golden for Jia Nan Yuan. The Lebrun Borthers are using a TB ALC (Alexis) and a CS PH Innerforce ZLC (Felix).

    It's not that the french system rejects carbon: the french federal coach graduating system focuses on teaching proper technique and skills way before power. Is it a mistake ? well the chinese system certainly proves power matters too, but they also uses "sticky bricks" they have to boost as the Hurricane 3. The vast majority of european players are using ESN/Japanese dynamic rubbers because of that old speed glue trend that never dies in player's mind.

    Just remember: when it was a cell ball, only 38mm, and speed glue, everyone played all wood blade. Butterfly introduced carbon in blades with the Tamca 5000 in... 1978 though ! but still, as the speed glue and 2.0mm sponges were doing enough with the cell ball, what was the use ?

    The carbon thing became a trend only when the ball came to 40mm, and at the same time the speed glue ban was announced, so of course you could see younger guys like Timo Boll using a Viscaria at that time. It was 2 restrictions against speed. What happened ?

    Butterfly Tenergy 05. Baaaaam... the speed glue effect was back. Even the chinese loved it for their ... not so powerfull backhand technique (compared to Primorac or Kreanga ridiculously powerfull strokes at that time !!!)

    But then the ITTF decided to switch to the heavier and slower P Ball, ok.. back to carbon, the China women's team left her Clippers for carbon blades, ok...

    But what happens now since 2 to 3 years ? new hybrid hard and dynamic ESN/japanese rubbers!!! and they all use it: the D09C, the Rakza Z, and if not it's regular grippy tensor rubbers that are über hard and dynamic ! and now available in 2.3mm for nearly all of them.

    ESN and Butterfly have filled the technological gap now, we're so back in the speed glue effect trend that some of you people are trying to level down the speed of their rubbers because of their carbon blades !!! it's nonsense, I mean hinoki thick blades have always proved to be efficient for spips guys right ?

    Equipment isn't priority ? well it does matter in that case, specially for the control/speed/dwell time ratio ! I would rather say "higher speed level of equipment" isn't priority.

    Youngster's like Truls, Tomokazu, Alexis or Felix were literally born with a racket in their hands, starting TT at 3 for some of them ! It's totally normal for them to be confident with carbon products since they:
    1- have the feeling of wood vibrations and reactions since a very young age
    2-- they have trained A LOT to master the basics: control, control, and control

    And yes as Tony said, it's not about the ridiculous loop kill you'll be able able to do once in a while that matters. Thierry Henry once said the best freekick shooter of all time in football was Juninho, not because of the angles, the speed, or the effect used... Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Messi were already scoring insane free kicks at that same time. But they were most of the time throwing the ball in the stadium seats !

    The fact is: Juninho was efficient and dangerous because: 90% of the time the ball he was shoting on freekicks was on target, and 85 % of the time, it was a goal scored. The guy had perfect control of the ball. Sure it wasn't always beautifull, but it was... IN.

    Statistics, percentage, they matters way more than the once in a while loop kill you'll be able to do whitout even being able to understand and analyse WHY you've been able to do it THAT time and not that one you've miserably missed 5 balls before !

    I had a RC2200 in my club forcing me once to loop the 3rd ball with my FH no matter where it was against strong backspins, I told him "It's not my game, I'm not efficient enough for that". He was tired of seeing me pushing the ball with my FH as I was able to do excellent FH loops sometimes... "sometimes"...

    I've done 3 decent FH attack over 10 of his receives, that's what all I was able to do.

    Then he said "ok serve like you want to be able to attack the 3rd ball, no matter FH or BH", and then he understood why I was serving MY way, and moving my way: I did 100% more ! yeah only 6 over 10 still.

    Then he told me: do yourself a favor and get a non carbon blade please. I was stunned. I saw his one and it was and old Tibhar Chila OFF: "I don't care if the ball speeds that much! as long as I can grab it and throw it on the table once more than my opponent with the right speed spin and placement, job done !" old player in his 60 by the way.

    When you see these guys warming-up, it's insane: they always do the 3 mn time trial drive test first between 2 tables, the goal is at least to achieve 200 strokes for a non stop rally ! 100 successfull drives for each opponent !!! as long as they've not done 100 successfull simple FH + BH drives in less than 3 mn per drive exercise, they won't swicth to another one. That's something I'm able to do once in a while, only with all wood blades.

    And then it's the same with looping against blocks, push vs push, counterloop vs counterloop is too much difficult though the best I've seen for guys at that level is 20 strokes each in the same non stop rally, and not playing too fast first.

    It's all about control: controlling the ball, controlling your nerves. Multiball is certainly good for footwork, but just set a simple drives or pushes exercise with a friend with only 1 ball and a timer... you'll get the picture...

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  11. matt243385 is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by OldUser
    Emmanuel Lebesson: 2016 ETTC champion, all wood blade
    Simon Gauzy: 2016 ETTC runner-up, all wood blade
    TTD's Tom "The Frog" Maynard: all wood blade

    In my club, the top players are ranked 1700 to 1800 FFTT, means RC or USATT 2200 to 2300 !!! and... none of them use carbon blades.

    So when I remember myself trying to master those BTY ALC outer or inner whatever blades with ESN/Jap rubbers with my tiny current RC 1400, I just ... laugh how stupid I was.

    I've played a guy just ranked 200 pts over me, I've beaten him twice maybe, but most of the time I've lost 4-0 or 4-1 at least a dozen of times: he uses a butterfly all wood 5 ply blade !!! his control is ridiculous ! his serves, receives and backspin pushes are so spinny it's a nightmare to handle, he's got tons of control and placement variations in his blocks, and his loops and counterloops are always spot on with the right spin speed and placement. He trains once a week only, no cardio, running, only some stretching and that's all. This guy has the smartest and clever brain I know.

    Unless you're a top national in your country, I don't think you need any of those carbon composite blades. Of course composite materials can bring a lot for the sweet spot enlargement and better control, like the Zylon in the ZLF innerlayer blades, the Glassfiber, but carbon is way too much unless you add at least 2 strong and thick layers of ayous or limba to compensate its too much strong reaction properties. Better play with an all-wood blade then ! Unless you are a top national, this sport is all about technique and control, intelligence and nerves control.

    The rubbers are now being harder and harder with a much stronger catapult effect, the first time I played with a Rasanter R47 Ultramax on an all wood OFF- blade I felt like I was playing with speed glue guys ! I mean, for most of us even 2.0mm sponge thickness is enough !

    Be honest first, most of time the mistakes we make are all because of a lack of control abilities, a lack of feeling because of a too much hard and stiff blade.

    I used the stiga optimum plus 5 ply all wood blade until i was around 1700 USATT. Then I switched to Viscaria


  12. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs
    Speak for yourself. I have short pips and I need carbon for stiffness. Could use a clipper or clone, but seven-ply are harder to loop with than a composite blade. It's not a fast setup with hurricane 8 fh, and my very weak self swinging it.
    The footage I have seen of you playing, you have chosen your equipment well. But you are also higher level than a lot of people who obsess over equipment.

    And you definitely get loads of spin on the shots you want it on.

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  13. Gozo is offline
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    #33
    I ain't need no carbon. Just gimme a piece of really thick wood...

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    Last edited by Gozo; 05-25-2022 at 02:52 AM.

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    #34

    Out of curiosity, what all-wood blade and rubbers does TTD's Tom "The Frog" Maynard:use? Thanks.


  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
    says I like to hit Heavy Topspin
     
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    I ain't need no carbon. Just gimme a piece of really thick wood...
    You definitely are using equipment that is way faster than what would be best for you. But.....if you are having fun....not really a big deal.

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  16. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #36
    There are so many things in my life that doesn't suit me but I just like it. Just like it, nothing more. Same reason for some players who like carbon blades.

    Many players just enjoy trying different equipment. New equipment may not make him better, or may be even worse, but he enjoys the speed or the spin.

    Same for the techniques. In many cases, the players should control the ball instead of attack, control the ball until the opponent hits the ball into the net, and he will win the point and win the game. But we just don't like it, we just want to smash the ball, we don't want to be so safe and win a boring game.

    In table tennis, pro players are responsible for the result of the competitions. Many players are responsible for their own joy only.

  17. TcharllesGomes is offline
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    #37
    Quote Originally Posted by mocker88
    Well. I need some sort of stiffer, quite fast blade for my boosted DHS H3-ish rubber on forehand. I have tried a lot of different blades and among these a hard Sanwei V5 PRO all wood blade as well. This one works quite fine with these rubbers, but I tend to come back to my Yinhe V14 PRO ALC blade. It's not the fastest, but it fits my playing style and my rubbers. This is the one rubber that I get the most out of my brush loops, and at the same time have quite good feeling in the short game as well. So until someone comes up with a better idea, I really need my carbon blade

    I just purchased a v14 pro and a big dipper 39 for my forehand, any tips on using it?


  18. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by TcharllesGomes

    I just purchased a v14 pro and a big dipper 39 for my forehand, any tips on using it?

    I used to use Big Dipper on V14 Pro. Both are very nice. Good for both hitting and looping.


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    #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    I used to use Big Dipper on V14 Pro. Both are very nice. Good for both hitting and looping.

    What are you using now?


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    #40
    I'm using inner carbon blades now: DHS Fang Bo ALC and the Stuor Harimoto ZLC clone.

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