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  1. mocker88 is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    Your motive for information is great.
    But how are you going to benchmark the information to?

    As everything in life, when you get older, or stronger, your perspective on life and everything in it will change too.
    Same applies for your view on equipment characteristics.
    And we only talking about a you at different stages.
    What about everyone else?

    I think you could possible only benchmark it without using proper technique, to be able to give some "generlized" outlook.


    Maybe like this:
    https://youtu.be/G5BNkWN9s1E
    https://youtu.be/3Mi8bDK83K0
    https://youtu.be/O9iuZ0qUXBA

    Yep. It's quite hard to create something that all players can rely on. I don't think there's any player sharing the exact same experiences as another one when it comes to product combinations in table tennis, because everyone moves, hits, tilting their bat in different ways etc.

    Mr Zhuang and I had some differences in how we experienced a couple of Chinese rubbers, and I think it comes down to that we use them in different ways.

    Great vids by the way I stumbled over them some years ago myself and then thought it was great information, but that's at the time when I started using Chinese rubbers. Today when I see these players use the Hurricane rubbers the way they do, I understand that there is no great data collected there


  2. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by mocker88
    Yep. It's quite hard to create something that all players can rely on. I don't think there's any player sharing the exact same experiences as another one when it comes to product combinations in table tennis, because everyone moves, hits, tilting their bat in different ways etc.

    Mr Zhuang and I had some differences in how we experienced a couple of Chinese rubbers, and I think it comes down to that we use them in different ways.

    Great vids by the way I stumbled over them some years ago myself and then thought it was great information, but that's at the time when I started using Chinese rubbers. Today when I see these players use the Hurricane rubbers the way they do, I understand that there is no great data collected there

    well, I take it that the difference is that you are comparing boosted H3N to another rubber, and I was just talking about rubber out of the package.

    I'm still willing to give you my car if you take a H3N out of package and find it to be faster than a out of package BD. In terms of objective physical speed, I don't think there is much interpretation or technique that goes into it. Either the ball bounces more from the same stroke, or it bounces less. If you take a Tenergy and compare it with H3N, your swing, your technique, your rating will not affect the speed of the ball. Tenergy is objectively bouncier/faster than H3, except maybe only the very highest topend power strokes. Still, nobody when asked "which is faster, Tenergy or H3" replies H3 is faster.

    A lot of people will say its because somebody's level is too low or too high. But even TTD Dan in his reviews says H3 (even boosted) is much slower than Dignics09c or Tenergy. If Dan isn't high enough level to give a sensible opinion, then we should just shutdown the entire forum.

    Last edited by Michael Zhuang; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:41 PM.

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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    well, I take it that the difference is that you are comparing boosted H3N to another rubber, and I was just talking about rubber out of the package.

    I'm still willing to give you my car if you take a H3N out of package and find it to be faster than a out of package BD. In terms of objective physical speed, I don't think there is much interpretation or technique that goes into it. Either the ball bounces more from the same stroke, or it bounces less. If you take a Tenergy and compare it with H3N, your swing, your technique, your rating will not affect the speed of the ball. Tenergy is objectively bouncier/faster than H3, except maybe only the very highest topend power strokes. Still, nobody when asked "which is faster, Tenergy or H3" replies H3 is faster.

    A lot of people will say its because somebody's level is too low or too high. But even TTD Dan in his reviews says H3 (even boosted) is much slower than Dignics09c or Tenergy. If Dan isn't high enough level to give a sensible opinion, then we should just shutdown the entire forum.

    Well. At first. I always find H3N faster than BD. If you look at the video you can see Tom and Dan playing with H3N the way they play with their Tenergy 05, using the H3N in the same way as the Dignics 09c. These are two very different rubbers. At first H3N is a bit tackier than D09c, and the top sheet is mushier in the D09c making it not responding to fast brushing strokes in the way H3N does. The same goes for BD.

    I even tried the Dignics 05 last tuesday, and tried to brush the ball like it's possible with the H3N, but it doesn't react directly and the ball sinks too long into the top sheet making the stroke slow and not that spinny.

    In my game play, the H3 is much faster than any Tenergy or Dignics, giving me much more spin. But if you drop a ball on the rubbers, the butterflies will bounce most and perhaps the BD will bounce more as well.

    Was it a Prius?


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    #24
    Joining the conversation on how to test equipment. I said this once before, but I don't want to copy paste it here, the general idea is: the way people reviewing equipment are too subjective.

    Most if not all reviews for table tennis equipment you can find are all something like "when playing with the new xxx, I feel xxx". True, the equipment needs to be used by a person eventually, but that is just part of it. What we need is quantifiable property measurements of said equipment, but I rarely see anyone doing that.

    And just for a comparison, when testing computer hardware, we run benchmarks, and not just one, but rather tens of different software to test as many aspects of the hardware as possible. What we don't do is just run a game on the new hardware, observe with human eyes and say "hey, I think this looks better than the one that came out last year".
    Last edited by DukeGaGa; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:43 PM.

  5. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeGaGa
    Joining the conversation on how to test equipment. I said this once before, but I don't want to copy paste it here, the general idea is: the way people reviewing equipment are too subjective.

    Most if not all reviews for table tennis equipment you can find are all something like "when playing with the new xxx, I feel xxx". True, the equipment needs to be used by a person eventually, but that is just part of it. What we need is quantifiable property measurements of said equipment, but I rarely see anyone doing that.

    And just for a comparison, when testing computer hardware, we run benchmarks, and not just one, but rather tens of different software to test as many aspects of the hardware as possible. What we don't do is just run a game on the new hardware, observe with human eyes and say "hey, I think this looks better than the one that came out last year".

    Well yeah, if you really want to be precise and you are comparing Tenergy vs Dignics, you need benchmarks and precise measurements. But I'm talking about rubbers with enormous gaps in their properties.

    H3 and Tenergy is beyond obvious which is faster. You don't need to test all different scenarios of strength of Ma Long and strength of 3 year old girl. It's abundantly clear that Tenergy is faster than H3. If you are testing Tenergy and Dignics, yes, you need to have proper benchmarks.

    My point is that H3 and BD really is just as clear, and I don't know how much faster it is, but I just know its faster. You don't need to weigh a large man to know that he is overweight.


  6. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #26

    In my game play, the H3 is much faster than any Tenergy or Dignics, giving me much more spin. But if you drop a ball on the rubbers, the butterflies will bounce most and perhaps the BD will bounce more as well.

    Now I'm really curious. Can you post a video of you hitting with H3 (new and unboosted) and hitting with Tenergy (new and unboosted) where the H3 is faster?

    I have no idea your level, maybe you are 2500+. But even blindly, I'd gladly take bets with anybody that youre forehand loop/drive will be faster with Tenergy/Dignics than H3.


  7. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    Now I'm really curious. Can you post a video of you hitting with H3 (new and unboosted) and hitting with Tenergy (new and unboosted) where the H3 is faster?

    I have no idea your level, maybe you are 2500+. But even blindly, I'd gladly take bets with anybody that youre forehand loop/drive will be faster with Tenergy/Dignics than H3.

    If you know how to contact the ball with H3 to really use the topsheet to its full potential H3 can give you some pretty amazing shots even if it is minimally boosted, or not boosted. It is how you touch the ball. But I still would like to see the footage too. I just know I have seen certain players who used H3 and did not boost who still got amazing topspin loops on their FH and did not get as fast, or as spinny a loop with T05. But that won't happen in everyone's hand.

    It is also worth knowing, someone who knows how to use H3, H3 tops out at a higher top end. Tenergy is easier to get fast shots from. It is more forgiving. But if you have enough power on impact and can still make spin contact, H3 will top out at a higher top speed because of the harder sponge. And the tacky topsheet, for someone who is really doing that, it will make the ball spin like hell.
    Setup 1: Blade by Nate: Vortex Spin Machine, FH Evolution MX-K, BH Evolution FX-P
    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
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  8. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    If you know how to contact the ball with H3 to really use the topsheet to its full potential H3 can give you some pretty amazing shots even if it is minimally boosted, or not boosted. It is how you touch the ball. But I still would like to see the footage too. I just know I have seen certain players who used H3 and did not boost who still got amazing topspin loops on their FH and did not get as fast, or as spinny a loop with T05. But that won't happen in everyone's hand.

    It is also worth knowing, someone who knows how to use H3, H3 tops out at a higher top end. Tenergy is easier to get fast shots from. It is more forgiving. But if you have enough power on impact and can still make spin contact, H3 will top out at a higher top speed because of the harder sponge. And the tacky topsheet, for someone who is really doing that, it will make the ball spin like hell.

    Right, that's why I said maybe he is 2500 and maybe I'll lose my money because he can access the topend speed. But I like my chances that for almost anybody on the planet, Tenergy will be faster. So i'd be willing to put up the money and bet with anybody here on the forum on the outcome.

    We can put the money in escrow, or just send a paypal to a 3rd party to hold onto the money before we decide the winner.


  9. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #29
    Does not have to be that high level to have the right contact for that. He just has to be very well versed in looping with H3 and have a decent loop.

    Being high level has much more to do with knowing how to handle the first 3-5 balls in a rally and being able to stay in longer looping rallies. You could have a great loop and not be able to get past the first 3 balls and never get to your loop and end up a 1300 level player who has a good loop.
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  10. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #30
    So are you taking the other side of the bet?

  11. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    So are you taking the other side of the bet?
    I am not making any bets. I am just saying, it could be the case and he does not have to be super high level for it to be the case.

    He could also play Tennis and have really good impact power on his loops. Or he could just be so used to H3 that he knows how to get a lot out of it and is not used to Tenergy and does not know how to get the most out of it.

    Things are never as black and white as how you seem to try and present certain things. There is a lot more nuance to TT.

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    #32
    Well that's the essence of the question isn't it. My point is that on this issue, it IS black and white. H3 is slower than Tenergy. that's my bet. If i'm wrong, then I pay.

  13. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Well that's the essence of the question isn't it. My point is that on this issue, it IS black and white. H3 is slower than Tenergy. that's my bet. If i'm wrong, then I pay.
    Interesting that the guys with the Most Powerful FHs all seem to use H3 over the past 20-30 years.

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    #34
    Well then make the bet.

    I dont think they would use H3 without booster and speed glue.

  15. lodro is offline
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Well that's the essence of the question isn't it. My point is that on this issue, it IS black and white. H3 is slower than Tenergy. that's my bet. If i'm wrong, then I pay.

    IT IS NOT BLACK and WHITE ............you are wrong

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    #36
    If I'm wrong, at least I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is. Are you willing to take the bet? If you are right, I'm literally just giving you free money. Where is the downside for you.

  17. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #37
    IT’S NOT BLACK AND WHITE!!!It’s Asian😊( disclaimer: no racism meant in any way)🤣

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    Last edited by PingBirdPong; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:09 AM.
    Modestly, Leo

  18. mocker88 is offline
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    Now I'm really curious. Can you post a video of you hitting with H3 (new and unboosted) and hitting with Tenergy (new and unboosted) where the H3 is faster?

    I have no idea your level, maybe you are 2500+. But even blindly, I'd gladly take bets with anybody that youre forehand loop/drive will be faster with Tenergy/Dignics than H3.

    Sorry. Can't upload a video in some way. Wrong file type. Perhaps I could get some help?

    UpSideDownCarl is on to something there.

    I'm not that high level, mainly because I'm getting older and I tend to miss now and then
    But that is how I play. Very brushy


  19. Umut is offline
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    #39
    It could be also subjective matter but even the top players like Ma Long, FZD, ZJK are twiddling their rackets for using backend rubber (BTY T/D) while smashing. probably their hurricane 3's are faster or equal than anyone can get and also clearly their level is higher than anyone's in this forum
    (or maybe I am totally wrong they may just changing for another reason like lesser incoming spin sensitivity etc but I don't think so)

    Just this one alone is enough proof for me that BTY Tenergy/Dignics are faster than Hurricane 3.

    edit: I realised I've jumped up thread from the end, I also agree most of the assessments could be only personal feeling, or gut-sense without using robot, rulers, some mechanisms, objective measurements and statistics etc.
    Last edited by Umut; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:07 PM.

  20. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang

    I'm still willing to give you my car if you take a H3N out of package and find it to be faster than a out of package BD.

    What car do you have?

    PS - I am the first one to test BD on the western side of the world
    TTT

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