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  1. Zwill is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Crisp and Crunch do not necessarily mean hard. In fact, there needs to be something soft under the hard outer ply for a hard blade to really feel crisp. ALC blades, the Arylate is actually soft and lets the top ply deform which is what gives it that feeling of snap. Limba on certain blades can feel very Crisp and give you this giant Crunch feeling on impact depending on the blade construction.....and.....as said above.....depending on the rubbers used on the blade.

    Some of how you get a Crisp feeling from the blade is how the top ply interacts with the ply underneath it. So, with an Koto/ALC blade, the top ply is hard and thin, and the Arylate in the weave is soft and allows the top ply towards the core and then rebound. For a Clipper, the Limba ply is pretty thin and the Ayous ply under it is springy. I have felt a Primorac Carbon and the one I tried did feel pretty crisp to me as well. So, the soft Hinoki ply on top of that Tamca 5000 Carbon layer may cause the to plies to interact in a way that causes that. But it is worth trusting someone who has that blade, like Lazer, if he says it feels crisp.

    Well you have a point regarding how soft and hard layers combine. I have 2 Primorac Carbons and a Schlager Light, and with 2 softer rubbers (as I liked to use them) it feels crisp, but if you put on a hard rubber I wouldn't call it crisp, the whole feeling becomes more "vague".

    A Viscaria is always crisp, even with a H3.

    Funnily enough 2 days ago, out of totally different reasons I took out my black tag Primo Carbon and glued a Rozena and my Tibhar K2, one is soft the other is a hard rubber and the K2 was really rubbish with it while the Rozena on BH felt great.

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  2. DukeGaGa is offline
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    #22
    Can't resist lol Look how happy he is. 🤣


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    Kuba Hajto


  3. ricospin is offline
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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by alas26
    What were you using to block Zaman
    it was a blade from ColesTT.

    air mambaS Hinoki Carbon. My guess it’s some primorac clone, but it’s not as crispy because it has a softer feel to it.

  4. Gozo is offline
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    #24
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    The term is crisp and crispness, not crispy or crispiness. You are right, that crispiness might be something associated with food. But a blade that feels crisp, is something that, if you have felt it, you know what it is. If you have not felt it, perhaps that is how you would not know about it.

    Thank you Carl for the grammar correction.

    It is strange that my computer auto-correct function did not pick up this grammar mistake.

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  5. lodro is online now
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    #25
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl

    ALC blades, the Arylate is actually soft and lets the top ply deform which is what gives it that feeling of snap

    REALLY ???????
    Exercise a) take two equally sized pieces of carbon and Arylate, impregnate them with resin and let them harden up.. You can glue them onto the kitchen table 😁
    then bounce a ball off both of them.

    Please report back if you still feel the Arylate is soft 😁

    Last edited by lodro; 06-11-2022 at 07:50 AM.

  6. PingBirdPong is offline
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    #26
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    ALC blades, the Arylate is actually soft and lets the top ply deform which is what gives it that feeling of snap

    REALLY ???????
    Exercise a) take two equally sized pieces of carbon and Arylate, impregnate them with resin and let them harden up.
    then bounce a ball of both of them.

    Please report back if you still feel the Arylate is soft 😁

    Soft, compared to T5000

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    lodro

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  7. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #27
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    ALC blades, the Arylate is actually soft and lets the top ply deform which is what gives it that feeling of snap

    REALLY ???????
    Exercise a) take two equally sized pieces of carbon and Arylate, impregnate them with resin and let them harden up.. You can glue them onto the kitchen table 😁
    then bounce a ball off both of them.

    Please report back if you still feel the Arylate is soft 😁

    They use Arylate in bicycle tires to make them more puncture resistant while remaining soft. They use Arylate in the casing for iphone chargers because it is significantly stronger than rubber or plastic but it deforms and is bendable and soft like the rubber and plastic materials used in cable charger housing.

    If you understand what the material is, than, you can understand how it effects the playing characteristics of a blade when it is used. This is why a Koto ALC blade feels so different than a Koto blade with just a layer of carbon under the top ply and why ALC blades became so popular.

    There is a Timo Boll T5000 blade where the only composition difference is that the composite ply is T5000 carbon. Try it and compare it to the ALC blade. See how it feels.

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    Setup 2: OSP Virtuoso Plus, FH Rasanter R 48, BH Rasanter R 48
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  8. PingBirdPong is offline
    says Verified Cheater, Banned by ITTF :)
     
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    #28
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    They use Arylate in bicycle tires to make them more puncture resistant while remaining soft. They use Arylate in the casing for phone chargers because it is significantly stronger than rubber or plastic but it deforms and is bendable and soft like the rubber and plastic materials used in cable charger housing.

    If you understand what the material is, than, you can understand how it effects the playing characteristics of a blade when it is used. This is why a Koto ALC blade feels so different than a Koto blade with just a layer of carbon under the top ply and why ALC blades became so popular.

    There is a Timo Boll T5000 blade where the only composition difference is that the composite ply is T5000 carbon. Try it and compare it to the ALC blade. See how it feels.
    You do NOT want to try the Boll T5000😂

    And I’m not allowed to use “iph***” even though it’s from Carl’s post?

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    ricospin

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  9. lodro is online now
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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    They use Arylate in bicycle tires to make them more puncture resistant while remaining soft. They use Arylate in the casing forchargers because it is significantly stronger than rubber or plastic but it deforms and is bendable and soft like the rubber and plastic materials used in cable charger housing.

    If you understand what the material is, than, you can understand how it effects the playing characteristics of a blade when it is used. This is why a Koto ALC blade feels so different than a Koto blade with just a layer of carbon under the top ply and why ALC blades became so popular.

    There is a Timo Boll T5000 blade where the only composition difference is that the composite ply is T5000 carbon. Try it and compare it to the ALC blade. See how it feels.

    Any fiber bonded with rubber or soft plastic will remain pliable.
    Bond the same fiber with polyester resin and it will all become glass hard.
    Use epoxy or vinyl- ester a little less.
    and if one uses some hide glue even softer😎
    HARDNESS is simply the wrong word

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    Last edited by lodro; 06-12-2022 at 05:07 AM.

  10. bobpuls is offline
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    #30
    Ieah, my full metal jacked blueprint.... There is nothing crisper thn that 😂

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    Der_Echte


  11. hipnotic is offline
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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    Any fiber bonded with rubber or soft plastic will remain pliable.
    Bond the same fiber with polyester resin and it will all become glass hard.
    Use epoxy or vinyl- ester a little less.
    and if one uses some hide glue even softer😎
    HARDNESS is simply the wrong word

    Lodro is absolutely right here. Carl is trying to describe an intrinsic characteristic of the material with the wrong word.

    In their natural state these fibers are all pliable, they are just fabrics after all, it's not until you bond them with some sort of resin that you exploit their full characteristics. Carbon is hard and brittle, this means it has a very limited bending capacity. When subjected to an exterior force, it will show very little deformation, until it suddenly breaks without warning. On the other hand, arylate (Vectran), aramid (kevlar) and zylon (pbo) fibers are ductile. This means they undergo permanent deformation without fracturing. But none of this fibers is soft, maybe when compared to carbon, but they are not the fluffy pillows people make them out to be, certainly much harder than wood.

    Crisp means definition, like "that TV has a really crisp image". In a TT context it means you have a clear and concise feedback, and that has to do with vibration transmitting to your hand. There are all wood blades with a crisp feeling, that happens when you are able to nullify the "bad" vibration modes, and keep the ones that are actually important for feel. So, this can happen with many blades, it's not limited to ALC, although some compositions are more prone to it than others. One of the purposes of Arylate is vibration dampening, that's why ALC it's associated with the crisp feeling. But pure Arylate blades aren't so crisp, so maybe it's important to keep Carbon in the mix.

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  12. IB66 is offline
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    #32
    I like Hipnotic’s take on ‘crisp’ like a ‘sharp’ image, all fuzziness removed.
    Perhaps a ‘crisp’ blade, or set up, only allows the important vibrations through. Those vibrations that convey a sharp and easily recognisable ‘feel’, both for good and poor shots!!!

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  13. OldUser is offline
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    #33
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    Crisp and Crunch do not necessarily mean hard. In fact, there needs to be something soft under the hard outer ply for a hard blade to really feel crisp. ALC blades, the Arylate is actually soft and lets the top ply deform which is what gives it that feeling of snap. Limba on certain blades can feel very Crisp and give you this giant Crunch feeling on impact depending on the blade construction.....and.....as said above.....depending on the rubbers used on the blade.

    Some of how you get a Crisp feeling from the blade is how the top ply interacts with the ply underneath it. So, with an Koto/ALC blade, the top ply is hard and thin, and the Arylate in the weave is soft and allows the top ply towards the core and then rebound. For a Clipper, the Limba ply is pretty thin and the Ayous ply under it is springy. I have felt a Primorac Carbon and the one I tried did feel pretty crisp to me as well. So, the soft Hinoki ply on top of that Tamca 5000 Carbon layer may cause the to plies to interact in a way that causes that. But it is worth trusting someone who has that blade, like Lazer, if he says it feels crisp.

    Seriously, nobody here thinks Clippers are crispier than Viscarias for even a second: I've used them both, and in order to achieve the Viscaria's level of crispiness youd have to seal it with 3 or 4 heavy coats ! (Funny enough, the very first Clipper I've tried in the early 90's was borrowed from a RC 2200 guy who sealed it that stupid way to get even more speed !!!).

    It's not a secret that the Chinese National Women Team switched to carbon blades after the ITTF introduced the P Ball, the Clippers became too soft and flexy for that ball.


  14. SamTheMan is offline
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    #34
    Quote Originally Posted by OldUser

    Seriously, nobody here thinks Clippers are crispier than Viscarias for even a second: I've used them both, and in order to achieve the Viscaria's level of crispiness youd have to seal it with 3 or 4 heavy coats ! (Funny enough, the very first Clipper I've tried in the early 90's was borrowed from a RC 2200 guy who sealed it that stupid way to get even more speed !!!).

    It's not a secret that the Chinese National Women Team switched to carbon blades after the ITTF introduced the P Ball, the Clippers became too soft and flexy for that ball.

    Music&Ping, is that you?


  15. vossi39 is offline
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    #35
    Yinhe Shiryu Katana VF-7, 5 (wood) + 2 (Volcanic Fibre). I never had a blade with such a low ball contact time and crisp feeling. Too fast for me though.
    Last edited by vossi39; 06-13-2022 at 03:15 PM.

  16. jammmail is offline
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    #36
    It would be interesting to see a matrix chart - like Butterfly produce for the top/most popular blades. That has a crisp/soft, fast/slow scale to it.

  17. tropical is offline
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    #37
    Couple weeks ago, I went to team table tennis championship in Fremont, CA and took these pictures of Kanak's blade. It is a Timo Boll's ALC. Tenergy both sides; 05 hard and 19.

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  18. lodro is online now
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    #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jammmail
    It would be interesting to see a matrix chart - like Butterfly produce for the top/most popular blades. That has a crisp/soft, fast/slow scale to it.

    in their own way many manufacturers do have something like this. Often they express it with 3 figures relating to SPEED -SPIN- CONTROLL
    We are then supposed to guess what all this means. It is a jungle out there. 😁

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  19. jammmail is offline
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    #39
    Yeah it’s how they all come together though :-)

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