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    #1

    Hidden serve

    Hello, I know that hiding serves is illegal but sometimes players do that even at higher levels. How umpire can see if serve is hidden or not from his angle? Many top players contact the ball very close to the body and very fast so it's hard to tell if it's against the ITTF rules.

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    #2
    Some times, it's up to the players to call it out.

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    #3
    for me they watch how players toss the ball so they can judge if they toss the ball in the vertical line they watch if they hide contact point sometimes I found something like "net" without warning, if the ball goes more horizontal to the body and then there is point when player hide the contact, Pavel Sirucek vs Ovtcharov 2019-20 (maybe it is not perfect timeline) it is example when the ball goes to the body and shoulder hide contact.
    FOR me the most skillful in cheating it is China, because they are fast in tossing and putting pressure on the ball, everything is very fast so your eyes are not adapted . Liang Jingkun had a lot of warnings because his head is big like watermelon, Ma Long sometimes forget it is not 1993. BTW Apolonia who toss the ball in vertical line and he hides balls but have clear contact is mistaken for cheating.
    Contact point is very confusing from left hand and right hand players. THE same service from my perspective if I play with Right Handed player is correct but when left handed player did the same service I can judge that he hides the ball because my perspective is less clear.

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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Franek
    Hello, I know that hiding serves is illegal but sometimes players do that even at higher levels. How umpire can see if serve is hidden or not from his angle? Many top players contact the ball very close to the body and very fast so it's hard to tell if it's against the ITTF rules.

    Umpiring in 2022 is just like 1922.
    only difference with technology is the digital scorecards and time out clock.

    Umpires don't have any thing else other than the 2 eye balls (or 4, if you include assistant umpire).

    For such a fast sport, 4 eye balls is not really enough.

    I actually think a 3rd umpire is required - to be the technology umpire and to be called upon like in FIFA.
    the 3rd umpire can also provide warnings to the main umpire regarding illegal serves (ie, provide screen shot / replays)

    Well, it is 2022. If TV broadcasting can replay, maybe the tournament people can do it too

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    Umpiring in 2022 is just like 1922.
    only difference with technology is the digital scorecards and time out clock.

    Umpires don't have any thing else other than the 2 eye balls (or 4, if you include assistant umpire).

    For such a fast sport, 4 eye balls is not really enough.

    I actually think a 3rd umpire is required - to be the technology umpire and to be called upon like in FIFA.
    the 3rd umpire can also provide warnings to the main umpire regarding illegal serves (ie, provide screen shot / replays)

    Well, it is 2022. If TV broadcasting can replay, maybe the tournament people can do it too

    I thought table tennis already implemented something similar to the hawkeye technology used in tennis, no? Or did they only used that for statistics but not for enforcing rules?


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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeGaGa

    I thought table tennis already implemented something similar to the hawkeye technology used in tennis, no? Or did they only used that for statistics but not for enforcing rules?

    As of i know, they only used it two tournaments in 2019. I have never seen it again being used since.

    A possible reason might be that it adds another pause possibility which slows down the game. Something they always tried to mitigate somehow.

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    #7
    I think 3rd umpire is required as you said. He should sit behind the table because that's best perspective to see contact with the ball on serves

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    #8
    one ref needs care about one player and they won't be in straight line to the net, they must see his player in good perspective, so referee needs to change their position.

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    #9
    you don't need the third umpire, if umpire is in any doubt they should warn them fault player, but too much is let go

    in my experience 90% OF TOP PLAYERS SHIELD, OR HIDE CONATCT OR DONT THROW THE BALL CORRECTLY

    It is disgusting, our sport is one of the most disgusting sports for this

    last weekend i saw an adult player shielding blatantly like in 90s against a 16 year old junior, luckily the junior guessed enough correctly to win and stayed calm, but it was causing him him massive problems

    too much cheating in life and sport sadly humans are a disgusting selfish species often more than not

    still there are many honest players left in the world

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    #10
    Der_Echte's take on the illegal serving... This is for the amateur crowd in club or Church or in sanctioned tourneys.

    I see TWO distinct classes of illegal servers - the crowd who is cheating and the crowd who simply does not care about ITTF rules and does not wish to change how they learned way back when.

    I can understand and have some sympathy with the crowd who does not want to be dictated by ITTF rule changes. They learned a way, like it, accepted it, and damn the ITTF or a natl assn to all getout. I do not agree with this crowd, but I can see this crowd is true to their self and consistent.

    The CHEATER crowd is pure evil. Some more than others. This is deliberate misuse and disrespect of rules. The only time I can understand it is when one side cheats, you complain to the tourney director, demand an umpire, get one, and still illegal serving... or when no umpire available, so you fight illegal serves with BETTER illegal serves. I might go so far as fingertip blatant illegal serves just to push a point. You were not gunna get an umpire by complaining and crying to the TD, so make this dude bring the TD to the scene of the crime... at least this way you got the audience of the TD and can present a point or two... if it fails, you were not gunna get anywhere with the TD anyway, so why be a victim?

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    #11
    This is how I feel on the Pro level... You have actual umpires present in uniform acting like they are watching and conscious...

    The umpires at the international level have decade(s) of experience and knowledge... they are not ur sleepy creep Joe types. They know rules - they have to prove they do.

    The LAWS of TT are very clear. If the UMPIRE is NOT CONVINCED if the serve is legal, then the serve is illegal. Period

    The problem is enforcement of this rule in the laws of Table Tennis. If the umpires do not enforce a clear standard of a clean serve (like say Samsonov or Boll) then the players are gunna push the boundaries of illegal serve up to and just before the point of being called for it. YES, it is an illegal serve to use the head and shoulders to hide the visibility of the ball in flight and quickly uncoil and present a view of the ball for 0.01 seconds at impact... YES that is illegal, but that is how the pros are doing it... and they have practiced THOUSANDS OF HOURS to do those serves.

    WHY are the serve rules NOT BEING ENFORCED at the ITTF tourney level?

    The Umpires do not care or are too worried about upsetting the apple cart.

    WHY would a professional umpire feel like that?

    They are not paid as a professional. Heck, just about anyone WR 30-40 and below not playing in the Bundesliga are not being paid as professionals with enough money to make a living beyond a Spartan life... WHAT do you think UMPIRES in the sport make? NEXT TO NOTHING. ITTF uses local ones where possible and pays for travel/hotel maybe meals of umpires, but not much more than that.

    Umpires do not get paid enough to care and do a professional job.

    Then there is also the pressure of ITTF and the fans.

    The ones who call serves IAW the rules are also command told to stand down... by both ITTF and the fans. WHO wants to see a match with 38 service fault calls, no matter how correct the umpire is on calling out ball hiding or not clearly presenting a legal serve? The alligator tears from the fans in person and online are real pressure. We have seen this over and over. If an umpire grows any balls and calls serves, then that umpire is SOUNDLY criticized in person and online.

    What umpire is gunna want to put up with that? and for next to zero pay? it is a harassment that comes with the job. The umpire can have moral courage and do the right thing, but that umpire will not be an umpire very long having that courage.

    We have a cultural problem and a financial problem, it isn't so simple.



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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Der_Echte's take on the illegal serving... This is for the amateur crowd in club or Church or in sanctioned tourneys.

    I see TWO distinct classes of illegal servers - the crowd who is cheating and the crowd who simply does not care about ITTF rules and does not wish to change how they learned way back when.

    I can understand and have some sympathy with the crowd who does not want to be dictated by ITTF rule changes. They learned a way, like it, accepted it, and damn the ITTF or a natl assn to all getout. I do not agree with this crowd, but I can see this crowd is true to their self and consistent.

    The CHEATER crowd is pure evil. Some more than others. This is deliberate misuse and disrespect of rules. The only time I can understand it is when one side cheats, you complain to the tourney director, demand an umpire, get one, and still illegal serving... or when no umpire available, so you fight illegal serves with BETTER illegal serves. I might go so far as fingertip blatant illegal serves just to push a point. You were not gunna get an umpire by complaining and crying to the TD, so make this dude bring the TD to the scene of the crime... at least this way you got the audience of the TD and can present a point or two... if it fails, you were not gunna get anywhere with the TD anyway, so why be a victim?

    Every time you cheat you are trying to get an unfair advantage.............................are the words that got me kicked out of one club.

    The clubs i play with now have just given up and never call anybody for illegal serves.

    Illegal serves are my pet-hate and there are some players I made the rule : I play with you but ""No counting "" otherwise
    when you want to have a proper match all your services will be counting 1 point for me.

    Guess who is being called a stickler and an arsehole 😂


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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    This is how I feel on the Pro level... You have actual umpires present in uniform acting like they are watching and conscious...

    The umpires at the international level have decade(s) of experience and knowledge... they are not ur sleepy creep Joe types. They know rules - they have to prove they do.

    The LAWS of TT are very clear. If the UMPIRE is NOT CONVINCED if the serve is legal, then the serve is illegal. Period

    The problem is enforcement of this rule in the laws of Table Tennis. If the umpires do not enforce a clear standard of a clean serve (like say Samsonov or Boll) then the players are gunna push the boundaries of illegal serve up to and just before the point of being called for it. YES, it is an illegal serve to use the head and shoulders to hide the visibility of the ball in flight and quickly uncoil and present a view of the ball for 0.01 seconds at impact... YES that is illegal, but that is how the pros are doing it... and they have practiced THOUSANDS OF HOURS to do those serves.

    WHY are the serve rules NOT BEING ENFORCED at the ITTF tourney level?

    The Umpires do not care or are too worried about upsetting the apple cart.

    WHY would a professional umpire feel like that?

    They are not paid as a professional. Heck, just about anyone WR 30-40 and below not playing in the Bundesliga are not being paid as professionals with enough money to make a living beyond a Spartan life... WHAT do you think UMPIRES in the sport make? NEXT TO NOTHING. ITTF uses local ones where possible and pays for travel/hotel maybe meals of umpires, but not much more than that.

    Umpires do not get paid enough to care and do a professional job.

    Then there is also the pressure of ITTF and the fans.

    The ones who call serves IAW the rules are also command told to stand down... by both ITTF and the fans. WHO wants to see a match with 38 service fault calls, no matter how correct the umpire is on calling out ball hiding or not clearly presenting a legal serve? The alligator tears from the fans in person and online are real pressure. We have seen this over and over. If an umpire grows any balls and calls serves, then that umpire is SOUNDLY criticized in person and online.

    What umpire is gunna want to put up with that? and for next to zero pay? it is a harassment that comes with the job. The umpire can have moral courage and do the right thing, but that umpire will not be an umpire very long having that courage.

    We have a cultural problem and a financial problem, it isn't so simple.

    You raise a valid point.
    Most of the times the umpires are volunteers.
    They will be lucky enough to have flights covered from they TT federation.
    And tournament expense (Accommodation/meals) covered by the host/tournament
    They might get a small spending money allowance - which is NOT a salary.

    Umpires are sadly, under paid and over worked

    Enforcing - but without evidence (other than what the umpires sees or think) is something the reason who enforcement is limited.
    Hence, a 3rd umpire with digital resources that can provide or back the main umpire when making calls. When there is argument - results/evidence are shown on the screen.

    However, with little funding - extra umpire, the use of technology is called day dreaming at the moment.

    ITTF rule book is not black and white enough.
    Too many grey lines and enforcement is also challenging.

    So you have a rule book that has question marks.
    And then all responsibility on yellow cards/red cards given on 1 (+ assistance umpire) without the aid of evidence, is also not right.
    Umpires choose to not make the call, than to make mistakes.
    We seen how some wrong calls has been made (ie Ishikawa kicking the ball and ended up in tears). So many umpires are cautious not to make such wrong call.

    However, I know many IU. Some even umpired in world champs and the olympics.
    Many umpires I know - either can't really play TT, or they, themselves, from the old school - still serves illegally LOL

    TTT

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    #14
    the refs should have a chance to change their position because you can see left and right hand players matchup so the contact point for both refs must be clear then
    - you don't need to gives point for bad illegal serving= less pressure. It called be "NET" so umpire will have more open space to not to be judged by others and then the rules must be clear so every coach will get tutorial how the serves should look alike and players need the same knowledge.
    I know it makes players do the same thing so the sport will be uglier but you can see there is more counter player robots these days and no one care about magicians who are lost in making the same counterlooping equipment, footwork drills and there is less tactic and finesse work

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    #15
    Just saw US nationals.
    Liang vs Gal, 6th game, 9-10

    Liang was busy hitting a shot that goes off, so 9-11
    but a ball comes in, and Liang raise his hand (could argue the point was in progress, near over)
    any ways, Liang isn't happy, as Umpire didn't notice that ball
    Liang left the court, and called someone important (looks like referee)
    referee spoke to umpire, tick, tock tick tock,
    and that someone had someone else coming in, now 3 people talking
    After few minutes, 4 people there talking (there having a board meeting maybe)

    Then umpire was removed, another umpire replaced him, and someone big stood behind the umpire

    So after a LONG break, the match continued in the decider. that point counted and now there is a new umpire and the referee....

    All because, "This ball" came into the court, and the umpire didn't see it.
    Some times a replay saves a lot of trouble to decide what is fair and what is not.

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    Just saw US nationals.
    Liang vs Gal, 6th game, 9-10

    Liang was busy hitting a shot that goes off, so 9-11
    but a ball comes in, and Liang raise his hand (could argue the point was in progress, near over)
    any ways, Liang isn't happy, as Umpire didn't notice that ball
    Liang left the court, and called someone important (looks like referee)
    referee spoke to umpire, tick, tock tick tock,
    and that someone had someone else coming in, now 3 people talking
    After few minutes, 4 people there talking (there having a board meeting maybe)

    Then umpire was removed, another umpire replaced him, and someone big stood behind the umpire

    So after a LONG break, the match continued in the decider. that point counted and now there is a new umpire and the referee....

    All because, "This ball" came into the court, and the umpire didn't see it.
    Some times a replay saves a lot of trouble to decide what is fair and what is not.
    World’s first table tennis mafia movie.
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    Just saw US nationals.
    Liang vs Gal, 6th game, 9-10

    Liang was busy hitting a shot that goes off, so 9-11
    but a ball comes in, and Liang raise his hand (could argue the point was in progress, near over)
    any ways, Liang isn't happy, as Umpire didn't notice that ball
    Liang left the court, and called someone important (looks like referee)
    referee spoke to umpire, tick, tock tick tock,
    and that someone had someone else coming in, now 3 people talking
    After few minutes, 4 people there talking (there having a board meeting maybe)

    Then umpire was removed, another umpire replaced him, and someone big stood behind the umpire

    So after a LONG break, the match continued in the decider. that point counted and now there is a new umpire and the referee....

    All because, "This ball" came into the court, and the umpire didn't see it.
    Some times a replay saves a lot of trouble to decide what is fair and what is not.

    Indeed it is a mess, world-wide.
    I also remember that event a couple of years ago now when they had about 15 cameras on table 1 and they were experimenting with all sorts of "umpire calls" . When a player was not happy with the call they would go into the computer files and played the replays. It also took its .time but the decisions were relatively quick and fair.. I said to myself :""Ahh finally""".
    But as mentioned in a previous post here, t came and went, never to be used again.

    Lots of top players were faulted, I remember Timo Boll got called for not throwing 16cm in his serve , he protested the call and won, his throw having been 16,5 cm high.

    Where has the technology gone ? and Why ?


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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    This is how I feel on the Pro level... You have actual umpires present in uniform acting like they are watching and conscious...

    The umpires at the international level have decade(s) of experience and knowledge... they are not ur sleepy creep Joe types. They know rules - they have to prove they do.

    The LAWS of TT are very clear. If the UMPIRE is NOT CONVINCED if the serve is legal, then the serve is illegal. Period

    The problem is enforcement of this rule in the laws of Table Tennis. If the umpires do not enforce a clear standard of a clean serve (like say Samsonov or Boll) then the players are gunna push the boundaries of illegal serve up to and just before the point of being called for it. YES, it is an illegal serve to use the head and shoulders to hide the visibility of the ball in flight and quickly uncoil and present a view of the ball for 0.01 seconds at impact... YES that is illegal, but that is how the pros are doing it... and they have practiced THOUSANDS OF HOURS to do those serves.

    WHY are the serve rules NOT BEING ENFORCED at the ITTF tourney level?

    The Umpires do not care or are too worried about upsetting the apple cart.

    WHY would a professional umpire feel like that?

    They are not paid as a professional. Heck, just about anyone WR 30-40 and below not playing in the Bundesliga are not being paid as professionals with enough money to make a living beyond a Spartan life... WHAT do you think UMPIRES in the sport make? NEXT TO NOTHING. ITTF uses local ones where possible and pays for travel/hotel maybe meals of umpires, but not much more than that.

    Umpires do not get paid enough to care and do a professional job.

    Then there is also the pressure of ITTF and the fans.

    The ones who call serves IAW the rules are also command told to stand down... by both ITTF and the fans. WHO wants to see a match with 38 service fault calls, no matter how correct the umpire is on calling out ball hiding or not clearly presenting a legal serve? The alligator tears from the fans in person and online are real pressure. We have seen this over and over. If an umpire grows any balls and calls serves, then that umpire is SOUNDLY criticized in person and online.

    What umpire is gunna want to put up with that? and for next to zero pay? it is a harassment that comes with the job. The umpire can have moral courage and do the right thing, but that umpire will not be an umpire very long having that courage.

    We have a cultural problem and a financial problem, it isn't so simple.

    GREAT POST!! Nail Hit On The Head, it is also very difficult to judge from the chair, it has to be said!


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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by lodro

    Indeed it is a mess, world-wide.
    I also remember that event a couple of years ago now when they had about 15 cameras on table 1 and they were experimenting with all sorts of "umpire calls" . When a player was not happy with the call they would go into the computer files and played the replays. It also took its .time but the decisions were relatively quick and fair.. I said to myself :""Ahh finally""".
    But as mentioned in a previous post here, t came and went, never to be used again.

    Lots of top players were faulted, I remember Timo Boll got called for not throwing 16cm in his serve , he protested the call and won, his throw having been 16,5 cm high.

    Where has the technology gone ? and Why ?

    That wasn't an ITTF event
    it was the Singaporean T2 event.
    An event without lines on the table if you recall

    TTT

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PingBirdPong
    World’s first table tennis mafia movie.
    ”gets replaced”😂

    Well Rachel Sung vs Amy Wang was another "umpire" got replaced match.

    Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 07-07-2022 at 03:58 PM.
    TTT

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