How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

LDM7 · Aug 23, 2022

Morning IB66,

If opponent is serving long (or half long) into your elbow or middle, you can try and move a foot or so (300mm) to either the left or right, timing is crucial!! You need to re set just as they impact the ball, so they don’t have time to adjust their serve!!
=> i had to read your comment a few times before understanding
=> it seems to me there's a little bit of guessing or anticipation on my end, to know whether to move left or right
=> i see tennis plyrs do this when receiving serves

If they serve as expected, you have already moved, the decision has already been made, and the serve is more likely to be in zone for either FH or BH open up, depending which way you have moved
=> i think i'd rather move to my right & open with BH as i diligently improve my BH & also covers the wide FH down the line

This can also be used for your 3rd ball, if opponent is returning to your elbow a lot, then wait until just before impact and move!! You gotta be quick though!! Be prepared for the unexpected return as well !!!!
=> will apply to my 3rd ball training & see how i handle the "unexpected"

LDM7 · Aug 23, 2022

IB66 said:
That tactic is a good un!! It makes you HAVE to make a quick decision!! DO I MOVE LEFT? to open up with FH, or RIGHT? to open up with BH !!

A tactic you can employ is to ‘RE SET YOUR MIDDLE’, more common for serve receive.
If opponent is serving long (or half long) into your elbow or middle, you can try and move a foot or so (300mm) to either the left or right, timing is crucial!! You need to re set just as they impact the ball, so they don’t have time to adjust their serve!!
If they serve as expected, you have already moved, the decision has already been made, and the serve is more likely to be in zone for either FH or BH open up, depending which way you have moved.

one tactic i recall is to set my receiving-side table to roughly 1/3 BH, 2/3 FH

when a plyr serves (or hit to) my middle a lot

i am now aware i can reset my middle by moving side-ways, to my left or right ...

Interesting!

LDM7 · Aug 24, 2022

I am starting to recognize when a shot goes bad, why & able to self-correct

I really enjoy practicing what Der calls the meat-and-potato (3rd ball open, 5th put-away) drills

Perhaps it is because i have a strong desire to be able to open & close, off of both wings

Of course i recon i have a ways to go ... albeit i am trusting my FH more & more, every session, with increased quality

we're not talking about my BH tonight 🤣

Tonight I won my 2nd match vs Brian JZ (3-1) b/c i discovered (nah, i lied, Der told me) serving backspin deep at his middle would likely produce a backspin return to my BH or middle'ish, and i was able to spin up 8/10 balls with confidence & quality, enough to frustrate him, b/c he blocking out 7 of those 8

this match reminds me one of IB66's earlier post - "knowing where a serve would produce a likely return is good !!!"

immediately i play a single-game vs David Ko (1 - 5 earlier) with resounding result (something like 11-5) , not that close

finally, i am learning the importance & how to collect data along the way of a game, and with confidence & familiarity, able to close out games successfully

i have a lot to learn how to play to win (tactical intelligence) !!!

Der_Echte · Aug 24, 2022

Yes, the observations (that I told you after the match after I directed you to serve a certain way the last two points vs David in ur last game) are CERTAINLY in the realm of tactical intelligence... which is one of the tenants of you created this thread... to learn how to do things to increase your odds... and this thread turned into a training log/discussion log... which is just fine, one should document what one does and look at it.

In real tourneys, nearly ALL the young kids have a pro coach who is watching, actively coaching, and flat out ordering the kid what to do when kid is going off track. This is a HUGE advantage... so many adults without a coach need to develop Tactical Intelligence by themselves to discover and make adjustments. I remember one match in last weeks TT America tourney vs a kid where that kid's coach was the former 5 yr long tenured coach of Austria. That is some serious coaching level these Bay Area kids get A HUGE advantage. Coach will command direct kid to do things to ensure kid gets and maintains upper hand.

LDM confessed he did not notice what I told him (serve long into body under-spin, get a long underspin ball back to attack high percentage spin it up... he got the message pretty quickly. Of course, having a competent coach in your corner to see things and ensure his player takes advantage of these things is a plus, but the player must also develop an ability to discover and adjust for himself... LDM7 made a huge step forward today doing that.

When you have the ball in your hand at 9-9 and you know these adjustments based on what you saw throughout the match, you inherently have a GIANT advantage to win, doesn't always work that way, but the odds are stacked in ur favor enough to start betting on urself.

I am not a conventional person or coach, but I value this kind of thing as much as technique. It is the difference between winning with conviction or losing under pressure and choking.

I prolly pissed LDM7 off as shortly afterwards I informed David how to better cope with those deep under-spins how to attack with a loop drive or power hit... (Spent a good 15 minutes going over the open bat forward stroke finish up) WHY?... I want those around LDM7 to grow and FORCE LDM7 to learn and adjust again so his level goes up more... it is a good thing if players in your skill group ALL get better... rising tide raises ALL BOATS kinda thing going on there.

LDM7 is showing some of his improvement in practice in these "fun" matches... league will be another animal... then sanctioned matches (vs the kids again !!!) will be another 10x upgrade in difficulty to show it... but that is the way of the weasel in TT improvement. If LDM7 base level grows significantly with his quality, then the results will come at some point later.

Der_Echte · Aug 24, 2022

All of this is also a positive thing as LDM7 was pretty unsatisfied with many things in practice just a few days ago, yet today he turned a corner in some respects with confidence and adherence to attack.

Brs · Aug 24, 2022

Not sure if this is a useful addition to the thread but there is still plenty of empty space on the internet so here goes.

Doing some random four-person practice in the club last week like this: One guy feeds short underspin from halfway down the sideline, receiver flicks or pushes, a third guy standing behind the table counters, and they counter back and forth free. Fourth guy picks up balls. After a while everyone rotates positions. It was a fun drill.

Anyway, when Kevin was the receiver he always made the right decision whether to push short or flick. If the ball was too short or too low he pushed, longer or higher balls he flicked. Two of us are about his same overall level of play but our receive decisions were a lot more random, like we pre-decided or guessed instead of seeing the ball and reacting appropriately.

That made me think about how you evaluate an unknown opponent in warmups and the first game. We always notice their power, and stroke form, and mobility, very obvious stuff. In the first game we usually notice FH/BH dominance, stance, table position, and crossover point. Those are pretty easy.

But 8 or 9 serves using mostly different serves often doesn't tell you enough about their receive game. Even if you use a serve and they crush it, maybe they just got lucky, or maybe if you placed it six inches away they would miss. But their receive decision-making is a skill that cuts across all the serves and might be easier to observe in only one game. If their decision-making is poor then you can try to trick them. If they always try the correct receive then it may be better to serve half-long or long and get ready to rally.

This may be stating the very obvious. But since Der says the thread is about tactical intelligence I thought it would be interesting to hear how other players read their opponent in a match.

IB66 · Aug 27, 2022

One thing I have noticed, during pre match warm-up v opponent, is which side, either FH or BH that they start the rally with, regardless of whether you are warming up FH to FH or BH to BH.
If they always use BH to start a FH to FH rally and BH to BH rally, then that’s a sign they are more comfortable and consistent with BH strokes and vice versa.
This may be more for lower level opponents.
I think it’s also an automatic / subconscious thing.

Tony's Table Tennis · Aug 28, 2022

IB66 said:
One thing I have noticed, during pre match warm-up v opponent, is which side, either FH or BH that they start the rally with, regardless of whether you are warming up FH to FH or BH to BH.
If they always use BH to start a FH to FH rally and BH to BH rally, then that’s a sign they are more comfortable and consistent with BH strokes and vice versa.
This may be more for lower level opponents.
I think it’s also an automatic / subconscious thing.

Hm.. its just a warm up
2 min is only a few balls and if you have someone who can't keep the ball on the table, 10~30% of the 2 min is used for picking up the ball.
At most you can only get 5 or so "proper" hard shots per side, I think it is very difficult to judge.

But yeah, if you have someone who only blocks with BH on both sides, it might show you that in the match, that guy will block 90% of all balls
But then proper choppers will block with the FH rubber on bh side and won't chop a single ball during that 2 min.

Der_Echte · Aug 28, 2022

LDM7 and another friend had an EPIC visit to 888 TTC for their first time. LDM7 left EVRYTHING on the court trained his azz off in so many practices and test matches. He should be telling everyone about it as he recovers from the exertion. I think his friend had an even better impression and experience there too.

Der_Echte · Aug 30, 2022

LDM7 sweat about 6 liters at Church today, moved and struck well, started to feel when stuff was right or wrong and why, many things improving. Judgment of ball too. At some point, this will all translate into better match performance down the road. Fundamentals allround improving. Nice to see a good bump in progress like this to balance out mentally the days where it doesn't come together as much as he wants, yet those days are valuable too,

Der_Echte · Sep 2, 2022

LDM7 showing commitment like a mofo... he really wants it and in many measurable areas practice to practice is visibly improving. Ray Charles could see the difference. Today no exception and he also saw the importance late in the match where play becomes animal fighting, he saw importance of mental state and control of aggression. This will at some point translate into performance in relaxed then league then tourney matches.

Der_Echte · Sep 4, 2022

LDM7 went at another MONSTER session today and improving fundamentals and combinations... and landing percentages/quality.. when he starts doing casual and league matches vs his similar level familiar opponents, he is gunna get on the hate list pretty quick.

This cat will go at it for HOURS on end and not stop.

LDM7 · Sep 4, 2022

Der_Echte said:
LDM7 went at another MONSTER session today and improving fundamentals and combinations... and landing percentages/quality.. when he starts doing casual and league matches vs his similar level familiar opponents, he is gunna get on the hate list pretty quick.

This cat will go at it for HOURS on end and not stop.

I like training!

Training with a purpose is even better & can be fun!

One area of improvement is how I view my training sessions - And it's just that, I am practicing shots & strokes to gain confidence, proficiency over time, then mastery

I look at balls ... lots, hundreds of balls coming towards me, each with a slight variation (spin, speed, pace, location) & seeing most of them land on the other side, close to where I am aiming

And with each positive feedback, I remind myself what it feels like executing that shot, the footwork getting to the ball, set my strike-zone, staying in crouch with balance, my grip pressure, hip orientation, recognizing winning patterns ... etc

With each miss - I am starting to recognize 8 out of 10 why, more importantly - what I should have done. The other 2 Der is not short of rhetoric

I am no longer afraid of going for my shot during practice & risk missing b/c it is practice!

* * *
Nothing breeds success than success itself!

When I continue to show growth session over session, I am confident some (and hopefully most) of this training will carry over into league matches, and eventually tourneys!

JT owes me a refund ... MOFO

IB66 · Oct 9, 2022

Hi LDM7
Hope you are well !!

How’s the training and match play going?

Here in England, the season has started up, local leagues, tournaments etc

Week before last I had 3 league matches and 2 coaching nights, (by the way a club mate and myself passed the TTE level 1 coaches course!! So now we can ‘officially’ coach!!!)

My knees had been feeling pretty good but I think I was being over optimistic about playing 5 nights on the trot (even though the coaching session are fairly light when just feeding and blocking they still take a toll)
The week started well !!
Monday match, won all 3 + the doubles, never really felt pressured, moved well.
Wednesday match, won 2 lost 1, won doubles. Knees were feeling tighter, not moving as well at the end of the night, the last singles of the evening was my last game, we were 8-1 up, the 1st end I lost 10-12 then I just rolled over!! wanted to take It easy, knees were getting really tight!!
Thursday match, lost all 3 !! Didn’t move well at all, knees had not recovered from the previous nights match!! Opposition was the strongest of the week, lost to 2 higher ranked players, which was sort of expected, but I had hoped to push them harder than I did, 3rd player was ranked lower than me lost 3-1 but didn’t play well, when you can’t move you are pretty screwed!!
Week ended badly !! Knees and calves were tight, couldn’t make the Friday coaching session!!

It took about a week for the ole knees to recover, luckily last week, I only had 1 match, which was Friday, On the Tuesday coaching session knees were still tight thankfully they eased right off over Wed / Thur.
we lost the match 6-4, I won 2 lost 1 and lost the doubles. Tight match, 5 games went to 5 ends, of which we only won 1 of the 5!! Could have gone either way!!
My teammate had a 100% average before this match, he lost all 3 singles!!

So what have we learnt??

For myself - don’t play too much !!! I have to be realistic, so unfortunately I am going to have to drop out of being a ‘regular’ match player week in week out for 2 clubs and pick and choose when I can play for them, I don’t ‘expect’ to play when I want just let them know which matches I am available for, if I’m picked then that’s fine, as is not being picked!! Playing for 1 club week in week out, which is more a case of having to because we have only have 3 players available with 1 player who will stand in if we are desperate!!

Away matches can be awkward, especially for warming up, My team mate who had a 100% win rate didn’t play well, warm up was too short for him, ideally he would have 15+mins warm up, on Friday he had 5mins max and never got his timing right, this showed with the amount of miss hits during his matches, this then had a knock on effect on his confidence!!
He was playing as our number 1, so went on 1st, he lost badly 3-0, well 1st 2 ends 11-7, 11-6, 3rd end was 14-12, later in the evening I beat the same guy 3 zip quite easily game 6/9/3.
There are always time constraints, and pressure to get the match played, in future we’ll try and make sure that he has a longer warm up!!!

Analysing / looking back how I played in the matches ( of 4 matches, 12 singles opponents, only 2 were ranked lower than myself)

good aspects
- serves were good and rally construction 3rd / 5th ball attack was good.
- reigned in power on attacks, more consistent attacks.
- read and received opponents serves quite well

bad aspects
- sometimes a little too negative - not opening up enough, especially to longer serves, pushed too many!!
- movement - ok knees ain’t great, but even though I moved well/better when they were ‘fresh’ there was still room for improvement!!
- poor open ups - when I did get in position!! This I put more down to practice, haven’t spent enough time training on them - hard to achieve as I’m coaching rather than being coached at present.

Looking forward to an up date from you LDM7 !! Plus Der’s analysis!!!

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2022

@IB66 AND any England based TTD members... I would wager sum steak dinners that LDM7 would be absolutely THRILLED if he visited England and some TTD members had some good solid TT action lined up for him.

Just a guess.

LDM7 recently re-started a little of league, he got placed in a different venue a group lower than normal, he did the expected and won the table 5-0.

LDM7 should articulate how it happened and some description of the action, but it is a simple matter of him performing like he should vs that group. We had a long discussion on the plus/minus of competing vs lower, same, and above levels of competition and the short answer is there are good benefits from all if done right.

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2022

@IB66... as for what LDM7 is doing in practice... he is getting better everywhere one could measure in terms of percentage and quality. He is taking charge more in training in forming and directing his strategic vision.

I am trying to temper his expectations as to what that will all translate right now into league and sanctioned comp results... I KNOW it takes SO LONG to make the improvement in practice turn into results in comps... been there, done that, got many free t-shirts on that... he ought to be showing results in the next few months, some could happen sooner, but odds are it shows later. I do not want to set him up for disappointment and have him fully aware of process and percentages.

Still, as LDM7 plays better shots, makes better decisions, makes more quality spin and percentage, the results will come, it is a matter of time. I do not want to call it ahead of time. I may be too conservative in this, but I have reasons.

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2022

On post 95, I revealed how LDM7 would appreciate some international travel with pre-arranged TT action and a chance to make new friends in person.

Well, Der_Echte has been using international TT forums EXACTLY that way for YEARS. If I have an opportunity, small or large to travel somewhere, I make it a big point to advertise on the forums in advance and coordination TT action. Very often it results in some of the best life experiences I have ever had.

Just a small sample size of my own empirical evidence that may or may not need further testing, but it is always promising and always had positive results.

I have never made a proper calculation of friends I made in this fashion, but it would CERTAINLY bee deep double digits if not approaching triple digits.

This is a testimony to the power of communication and the kind of people we have in our small TT world.

LDM7 · Oct 10, 2022

Congratulations on being TTE L1 certified

Here in the states major league baseball playoffs has started, professional football (American) is in full swing & my favorite, NBA basketball season starts in a week. I love this time of the year

For Christmas I have three wishes for Santa.

I wish there will be a well staffed 18-table club in my area (within 30 min drive)
I wish I were seventeen instead of fifty-seven. I am simply not as agile, move as swiftly nor see the ball well as my younger self.
I wish I can train twice a day, 8 days a week & recover immediately

By design I have not played many friendlies nor tourneys recently

I have been diligently working on my fundamentals, foot-work & serve/receives

My confidence stems from seeing more balls land on the table (with quality), all the while pissing less points away

I also realize it takes practice to implement my training, sucks to "it takes time" but true

Couple of weeks ago Der & I watched some elite competition at a club 1.5 hrs away (freaking long drive), these players stance, stroke consistency & selection, movements, how they manage their emotions (positive & negative) ... i left in awe & more motivated to train than ever

Looking forward to Monday night's local league RR as i go up against stiffer competition, late

Der_Echte · Oct 10, 2022

Since LDM7 made ZERO mention of foreign travel and epic TT action... than must mean he is simply busy as a beaver planning said action on a grand scale.

I believe LDM7s local league results will be positive real soon, certainly more positive than where he was 2 months ago or where he was trending. I still do not want to advertise LDM7 as a breakout, yet with enough time, that cat is gunna come out of the bag.

Lycanthrope · Oct 10, 2022

3 months ago when LDM7 put this post on, I thought LDM7 was only thinking about strategy and tactics, but leaving techniques behind.
From what LDM7 is saying now, I see LDM7 is putting strategy tactics and techniques together as the integral parts.

How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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