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  1. Littledragonman7 is offline
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    #1

    How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

    In sports, statistics tells a story of how the competition went

    In tennis, important data points are service aces, double faults, unforced errors, clean winners, how many times a plyr went to the net ... etc

    In basketball, some pertinent numbers are TO's, assists, FG%, FT%, how many shots one took to score all his points & how many of those points came from free throws vs field goals & more

    As an intermediate TT player, I realize there are things that are not measurable (or difficult or useless to measure) e.g. how hard a plyr hits the ball, the flow of a match or how many times a plyr like to bounce the ball on the table before serving ...

    However I do believe keeping stats help paint a picture of how a match went

    * * *

    What TT analysis do you look at in reviewing your wins & losses?

    Thank you for helping me in the right direction!
    Last edited by Littledragonman7; 07-04-2022 at 10:58 PM.

  2. lodro is offline
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    #2
    i do not need a lot of analyzing , most points i loose because i lost concentration
    and most points i win is because i did not.

  3. Lazer is offline
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    #3
    Absolutely nothing, it’s not important to win or loose. And above anything else to have fun is very important.If I play bad however this upsets me.

    Cheers
    L-zr
    Steal a little and they throw You in jail, Steal a lot and they make You King... (Dylan)

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    #4
    That’s a very interesting question, and as someone interested in data analytics, I’m keen to know too.

    I try to reflect back on a match where I may have been playing well but lost, however I struggle to recall objectively what really happened if there’s no video.

    I tend to focus on how I’ve served and what the impact of my serves have been and also whether I’ve felt in charge of shaping the match or on the back foot - but I still often don’t know why or what may have been required to achieve a different outcome.

    Have you looked at OSAI?

  5. IB66 is offline
    says Table Tennis England Level 1 coach
     
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    #5
    If you are into stats, then the OSAI app may be of assistance, if you have watched some of the TTD team matches, they use the OSAI system to show some stats from a match. I think there is also 1 dedicated video Dan did just about the OSAI system. I've never really looked into it, but it looks pretty good!!

    Another thing to consider is learning to analyse a match as you are playing!! how you won points, which serves gave you the better opening chances, find your opponents weaknesses Etc What Der calls "Tactical Intelligence"

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  6. tabletennisdaily1 is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Littledragonman7
    In sports, statistics tells a story of how the competition went

    In tennis, important data points are service aces, double faults, unforced errors, clean winners, how many times a plyr went to the net ... etc

    In basketball, some pertinent numbers are TO's, assists, FG%, FT%, how many shots one took to score all his points & how many of those points came from free throws vs field goals & more

    As an intermediate TT player, I realize there are things that are not measurable (or difficult or useless to measure) e.g. how hard a plyr hits the ball, the flow of a match or how many times a plyr like to bounce the ball on the table before serving ...

    However I do believe keeping stats help paint a picture of how a match went

    * * *

    What TT analysis do you look at in reviewing your wins & losses?

    Thank you for helping me in the right direction!

    I don't video tape and analyze too many of my matches, because it is a hassle. I should though, as it would help me improve more efficiently.

    General stats for a match, such as points won/lost on serve type, points won/lost on serve return, unforced errors, forced errors, success rate of strokes, *might* be useful, but it would be such a pain to manually rewatch the match, record every stroke of every point, and do the calculations. (Aside: you could use OSAI to do that for you, but it costs alot of money.) I think doing analysis point by point is easier to do and provides more information.

    In game analysis to give the best chance to win (included for discussion):
    I think the most important in game analysis is the serve and serve receive. In the first game especially, do a variety of serves and see how your opponent reacts (short, half long, long, backspin, no spin, sidespin). Keep a mental note of strong and weak returns. Do the same for your service receive. Is it advantageous to play a short push game, wait for the long push or flick, and counter topspin to the forehand, middle, or backhand, or is it better to initiate the long push to the forehand, middle, or backhand?

    Post game analysis to help improve faster (what was originally asked about):
    After the game, you can do personal analysis do determine what you need to work on the most. Analyze specific areas of your play in the match. How was your footwork? Was there a specific movement you struggled with and need to drill? Was your serve return stance good? Maybe try something different (Timo Boll style vs Ma Long style). How about the neutral position after the serve? (I personally stand a bit too much to the forehand side and cannot cover the far backhand.) If your opponent struggled with a service pattern you used (for example, short backspin to the forehand followed by long weak backspin to the backhand), make sure to note it so you can drill it more and make it a bigger strength. Which strokes did you mess up the most and need to drill ASAP? I know that for me my backhand flicks miss often because I don't go forward enough. I need to drill it more to fix this bad habit.

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  7. tabletennisdaily1 is offline
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    #7

    OSAI is free for "diary", which allows you to upload games to keep track of. The detailed analysis for a match however, costs lots of money.


  8. yoass is offline
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    #8
    Strategy, tactics and execution.

    Strategy comes first. What’s your goal? There’s much more to it than focus on winning. Winning might be the goal. Having fun playing another. Revalidating yet another. Pick.

    Strategy guides tactics. Winning tactics may be very different from fun tactics. And when revalidating, tactics might imply seeking to prevent gameplay that might exacerbate injury again.

    Execution matters. Your consistency, your agility, your endurance, your explosiveness. Abilities differ, change as you grow up, as you age.

    Understanding your game requires an understanding on these three levels, and in my view game analysis makes sense only in relation to that understanding.

    Why did you lose, is a question that should be challenged. Did you really? You win when you attain your strategic goal, I would say, and that may have little to do with what the scoreboard states.
    Last edited by yoass; 07-05-2022 at 07:55 AM.

  9. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #9
    I am a low level player struggling at techniques yet. To me, this strategy analysis is still too far away that practicing techniques benefits me more.

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    #10
    I have not analyzed but I feel I'm losing a lot of points on unnecessary errors on return of serve or "third ball" (my reply to opponents return of serve).

    At higher levels you need more shot quality but I feel at lower levels you can win a lot by just always play your first two shots on the table.

    That is easier said than done, especially if opponent serves and returns well but often I feel return or third ball errors are also just a lack of focus because you don't spend enough mental energy to read the opponents spin for example.

  11. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Littledragonman7

    What TT analysis do you look at in reviewing your wins & losses?

    Thank you for helping me in the right direction!

    Stats wise:
    look at how many shots win/loose from what kind of incoming ball, and what kind of shot going out.
    understand where the numbers come from in terms of unforced errors (threw away the point) vs points opponents really gained

    strategy:
    look at where the opponents serves
    look at how the opponent returns the serve
    look at strategy of opponent
    and link the strategy imposed versus the execution results (stats above) to have a bigger picture of how it was won, or how it was lost.

    Write a summary and this is good for training and future matches against the same player

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  12. jammmail is offline
    says Spin to win
     
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    #12
    Shot selection

  13. Haraold is offline
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    #13
    is there a similiar App like OSAI for Android?

  14. Brs is offline
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    #14
    On a really simple level, try to remember what point patterns you won on and which you lost. If there were serves you couldn't receive at all or where you gave up an easy third ball kill, those are usually seared painfully into memory. Same with the ones you won, except without the pain. It's slightly more complicated when you get into rallies. But TT points are usually so short it's not that much harder. Some common point patterns might be

    pinned to the backhand
    short fh deep backhand
    long to fh then to backhand
    push then open up
    blocked down
    push push push push push .....
    long pips popup smash

    As rally length increases obviously there are infinite possibilities. But the 80:20 rule applies bigly here. It's not that useful to know six patterns that happened one time each in a match. Knowing four patterns that happened six times each is what you want.

    Remembering these patterns after the match will gradually become recognizing them in the match. If the ones you win are predominating, great, keep that going. If not then you need to figure out how to break out of your opponent's patterns.

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  15. jammmail is offline
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    #15
    Yeah that is super useful - but really hard to remember after the heat of the battle :-)

    On thing I struggle with is the players on my team play so differently from me so i watch how they play my teammates game (who mostly use combination bats), but then they play totally different from me. Then the teammates make recommendations that sometimes dont fit with how i play as its a different game.

    I guess if your serious you should film. Its probably my reserved mentality but filming games feels a bit over the top and cringy for local league games.

  16. Lazer is offline
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    #16
    I can actually say one thing:
    "Don't give away so many easy points". Most of the time You will loose on Your unforced errors.

    Cheers
    L-zr

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    Steal a little and they throw You in jail, Steal a lot and they make You King... (Dylan)

  17. Gozo is offline
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    #17
    Just video your matches, watch them over and over again in your non-playing time. You'll bound to pick up something eventually.

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  18. Littledragonman7 is offline
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    #18

    Why Did I Win or Lose a Match

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67




    I try to reflect back on a match where I may have been playing well but lost, however I struggle to recall objectively what really happened if there’s no video
    => today i trained at a club with a player recording his practice session, to me, that screams I want to improve!
    => bought myself a medium budget tri-pot & a phone adaptor, now i record all my league & tournament matches for review

    I tend to focus on how I’ve served and what the impact of my serves have been
    => someone credible once told me TT matches are at least 70% serves & receives

    and also whether I’ve felt in charge of shaping the match or on the back foot
    => i think you're talking about service setups here ... where you have an idea of where the other return would most likely be
    => "on the back foot" i assume meaning jst going through the service motions and serve randomly & aimlessly (i often feel this way, hence the video recording for review)

    but I still often don’t know why or what may have been required to achieve a different outcome
    => if you start paying attention where mostly likely (highest probability) the other return is, this would help you establish control on 3rd ball (not a guarantee, but playing the %s)
    => working with a coach once a week on just serve set-up for a month has helped me measurably

    Have you looked at OSAI?
    => i am at their website now, i am stoked they have both versions!
    => thank you for the lead

  19. Littledragonman7 is offline
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    #19

    Hi Jammmail,

    no it's not over the top

    when someone record his matches, it screams he is dedicated to improve his skills

    I bought myself a medium budget tri-pot & a phone adaptor, been recording all my round robbin & tournament matches for about two months now

    all the efforts have starting to pay off

    hence i posted "why did i win or lose a match" to get ideas to how to statistically look at a match

    take care,

    andy C

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  20. Littledragonman7 is offline
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    #20

    truth that Gozo

    btw, what area is your home club(s)?


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