How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

LDM7 · Nov 4, 2022

Brs said:
Don't be afraid of following through too far. If that happens you would manage it by taking a smaller backswing, because the backswing and follow-through should be close to symmetrical around the contact point. But recovery isn't likely to be any problem if you get the hang of the circle thing NL wants from you, so don't stress about it right now.

Greetings BRS!

would you believe me if i told you i am still combing (digesting) through your comments amongst all the posts that ballooned on me over this past week?

for some reason i have NOT been getting new post notification (as a subscriber)

I have a private email in to Carl & have unsubscribed and re-subscribed the thread, der told me there are known issues & boils down to priority ... we'll see how it goes

***

I understand what symmetrical is, could you please clarify what you mean by "symmetrical around the contact point?"

Also when i hear you say adjusting (as needed) to a smaller back-swing (when close to the table), i immediately question myself will i have enough power then?

QUESTION: is it possible to use a small, short back-swing, yet generate equal or more power than a bigger, longer back-swing?

LDM7

Brs · Nov 4, 2022

Littledragonman7 said:
Greetings BRS!

I understand what symmetrical is, could you please clarify what you mean by "symmetrical around the contact point?"

Also when i hear you say adjusting (as needed) to a smaller back-swing (when close to the table), i immediately question myself will i have enough power then?

QUESTION: is it possible to use a small, short back-swing, yet generate equal or more power than a bigger, longer back-swing?

LDM7

This is only my personal experience so take it for that. Better players may have other ideas.
... clarify what you mean by "symmetrical around the contact point?"
I failed geometry and had to take it twice, so those words don't really come out to what I wanted to say. The size of the backswing and forward swing are proportional to each other. You don't take a six-inch backswing and a three-foot forward swing, or vice versa. If you want to cream a high easy ball with a straight arm and you backswing 180 degrees, the forward swing is going to finish way out past your left shoulder (for a righty). If you tried to stop that big swing too short your shoulder would break in half. But if you only take a tiny 45 degree backswing because the ball is on you super quick, you would never follow through all the way across the other side of your body. There is no need and it wouldn't physically happen unless you force it to.

Also when i hear you say adjusting (as needed) to a smaller back-swing (when close to the table), i immediately question myself will i have enough power then?

QUESTION: is it possible to use a small, short back-swing, yet generate equal or more power than a bigger, longer back-swing?

Power is massively over-rated for hobby-level players like us. Imo it is only the fifth most important quality of a shot, behind landing on the table, spin, placement, and speed as in early timing, then power.

That said, Yes it is possible for a small swing to generate more power than a big one. Stroke length is one factor in power, and all else equal a longer stroke will generate more power. But all else is rarely equal. I am not smart enough to list all the factors or rank them exactly, maybe somebody else wants to try. But using you body properly to generate great bat speed at contact is more important than raw stroke size. Same with timing the contact to both the position of the ball relative to the table and relative to your body. You can use the same size of stroke and touch the ball too far in front of you and get hardly any power. Or when the ball has dropped too low and you can't apply power because you have no angle. Or play the exact same stroke length and touch the ball right in your power zone and at the top of the bounce and absolutely crush it.

The power your opponent put on the incoming ball is another factor that you have to consider. Normally if you don't have time to take a long swing it's because the ball is coming fast. You don't need or want a long swing when the ball already has power on it.

Ask yourself how many points you lose because you made shots but they weren't powerful enough, compared to how many you lost by missing the table trying to play powerful shots. There is a point of diminishing returns to power somewhere along the scale for every player. Most of us think it is way higher for ourselves than what it really is.

Der_Echte · Nov 4, 2022

One can make a shorter backswing than the forward swing and still get good spin/pace. It is all in how one relaxes and explodes.

I especially like brs' comment about NOT needing much of a backswing and swing vs a high energy incoming ball. You shorten your stroke, go direct to impact point in strike zone, and firm up grip at impact as you strike through the ball. That gives a reliable and quality counter shot.

Next Level will articulate more on the "shape" of your stroke and how to adjust it to the ball, but all decent level players with solid strokes I see do that without thinking about it. The better players make generating a boatload of power look so damn easy like they are not trying too much. It is about relaxed explosion timing and efficiency. When you discover how to make your body do that, it is like a revelation.

LDM7 · Nov 5, 2022

Brs said:
Power is massively over-rated for hobby-level players like us. Imo it is only the fifth most important quality of a shot, behind landing on the table, spin, placement, and speed as in early timing, then power

The power your opponent put on the incoming ball is another factor that you have to consider. Normally if you don't have time to take a long swing it's because the ball is coming fast. You don't need or want a long swing when the ball already has power on it.

Ask yourself how many points you lose because you made shots but they weren't powerful enough, compared to how many you lost by missing the table trying to play powerful shots. There is a point of diminishing returns to power somewhere along the scale for every player. Most of us think it is way higher for ourselves than what it really is.

I understand the many truths to your assertion above BRS

I sense a paradigm shift above my neck, in-between my ears

Thanks for dignifying my question even though you value power as of fifth importance

I did ask myself the highlighted question above and came away with the obvious answer ... heLL0 !!!

It's just so damn hard to not hit (loop) hard, harder then hardest (actually there is rarely a hardest for me, i usually miss my 3rd loop 85% of the time b/c i am trying to hit it so hard, using a long back-swing & hit edge or late ... )

Let me see if i can figure out a way to tame the beast by substituting his thirst with something else

I want to get better

I want to wake up every morning & be better than I were when i went to sleep the previous night

i think i might need to have a self-talk here ... evaluating "feel good" vs "getting better"

LDM7 Out

LDM7 · Nov 5, 2022

One can make a shorter backswing than the forward swing and still get good spin/pace. It is all in how one relaxes and explodes

=> overall, i did not do a good job in this area, I was overly excited & my youthful exuberance got the better of our session

Next Level will articulate more on the "shape" of your stroke and how to adjust it to the ball, but all decent level players with solid strokes I see do that without thinking about it. The better players make generating a boatload of power look so damn easy like they are not trying too much. It is about relaxed explosion timing and efficiency. When you discover how to make your body do that, it is like a revelation

=> I don't understand what the "shape" of a stroke is

I am noting relaxed explosion, timing & body efficiency for further investigation

LDM7

NextLevel · Nov 5, 2022

Littledragonman7 said:
Morning NL,

thanks for your time & effort in explaining process & concepts, detailed & thorough

I gave it multiple reads & need to clarify the following please:

I said at U2200 (not 1200, U2200), that almost no one serves short, so I think your training partner was being kind, I hope it was not DerEchte as it means we have to argue, I think 100% of serves at the U1200 level are loopable
=> nah, not der echte (a training partner), and if you two were to get into an argument, i want to be there!

the issue of course is that the person who loops all of them isn't going to be U1200 for long
=> that's the idea

there is always risk when your stroke is not going into the face of the ball's path, which is usually what happens when you redirect a topspin shot
=> what is the face of the ball's path mean?

The thing about looping is that you are making the ball take a certain path. if you practice by yourself or with your coach under structured conditions, you should be able to vary the arc of your stroke with the spin speed and shape of your stroke
=> are you saying from back-swing to follow-through is not always linear, rather some shots or higher level requires a arc in my stroke path? seems floppy & many moving parts ...

You try to find a ball that puts the stroke on the table after you have guaranteed you know what is on the ball

A stroke is defined by 1) where the racket starts 2) where the racket contacts the ball 3) where the racket finishes, or in other words, the path of your stroke/racket 4) the speed of the racket swing and 5) how thick or thin your contact on the ball was. Of course, the biggest variable not mentioned is the spin on the incoming ball. but that is what you need to practice against to see what happens. Let us say you get reverse sidespin, there are many ways to handle it, but swing one way and see what happens to the ball. then adjust your stroke ( start lower or higher, contact a different point on the ball, and have a different finishing position - change one of the five or even all of the five depending on what you are testing) and see what happens to the ball against the same serve. Continue this process. Then switch the serve to another serve. Continue this process. One of the issues with learning is that the brain adapts to what it always gets, which is why you need to add variation to training to simulate matches so that your brain is forced to adjust faster. If you swing one way all the time, you never practice adjusting to the ball. But if you get some variation in practice, you get into the habit of adjusting both in practice and matches. You need a mix of block and random training if you want to see better match results but also improve your technique over time

=> I CANNOT WAIT to put in practice, train this way

Finally, at a later post you & IB66 discuss FH stroke finishing the circle ... do you mean from back-swing through follow-through?

if so, i am afraid of following through too far at the expense of recovering time??

LDM7

In writing the below, let's remember, first and foremost, table tennis is a game that is practiced and played. The below just gives you a story to work with since adults often need stories, but a story doesn't replace the practice hours, and many people have other useful stories and may disagree with the stories below and some may find such stories useless. And different stories mean different things at different times in TT development - all stories have context. So it is always best to know the context to see whether it makes sense to you. You have a good coach (fellow adult learners like Der Echte get it) - you could have a 2700 coach teach you the same things and not get it because he learned TT before he had to deal with language.

1. If a ball is moving in a certain direction, the face of the ball is an imagined point on the front of the ball as heads towards that direction. obviously you can hit it back by lining up your stroke with the ball and hitting the face of the ball. But redirecting the ball usually means you have to hot a point on the ball that isn't where the face is.. This creates a greater risk of missing as you are not lining up with the ball for as long as you would if you were just going to hit it back to where it came from.

2. Yes, follow through is not always linear. It is actually never linear, and you can watch your old videos and see it but the lack of linearity is usually determined by the mechanics of the human body as well as the full use of the body to dictate the path of the ball and it is so subtle when you swing at high speeds that no one really sees it. But it is real, you see it in a variety of things about the stroke. When someone squats to play a counter topspin or the push off on one leg to put the weight on another, isn't there an upward force from the push off leg and a downward force on the finishing leg? or even going back to the middle/neutral? If you make the shape happen purely with the arm, it is usually wishy washy. But with high racket head speed and swinging as fast as possible through the shape, you can get good results. Most people swinging with the torso/core, you can see this effect in very pronounced fashion. Let us look at my favorite TT model again - the curved paths of her strokes are very obvious and I doubt you would consider them wishy washy.:

Some rubbers have more arc than others to be fair, so the way you use those rubbers might feel more direct. But you cannot impart spin without a turning effect on the ball, and how you turn the ball with the shape/size of your stroke determines its path. You can test this by dropping the ball on the floor and looping it or just looping it out of your hand if you can do it and see how your stroke can be used to affect the ball path/arc.

The other thing way to test this is serving practice. You can make the ball do various things on the floor with practice by varying a lot of things about your serve.

The stroke circle/curve as I used to term to speak to you refers largely to how the path of the stroke (which is curved) affects the trajectory of the ball. It probably meant more in the days before powerlooping took over the sport, but it is still a way of learning to control the ball and adjust to spin. I know what BRS means, and it is probably the more common way of using the term, but it isn't how I really meant it for just this conversation. Most of the time, people are playing direct swings/topspins, and amateurs want to hit the fastest ball through the table, so they may not be concerned with hitting the ball with safety over the net or varying the spin to adjust to the opponent's stregnths and weaknesses.

Remember, the shape of a stroke isn't determined purely by your arm, your body has a lot to say in the path too if you use it! People playing the squatting countertopspin aren't doing it just to show off...

Recovery also has a bit of a circular element to it, but that is a separate topic. Recovery is a tradeoff that you need to acknowledge, but more efficient use of the larger muscles of the body can make a stroke that looks really large like Ma Long or Fan Zhendong far smaller than most people think it is. The main thing is to take the ball and remain in balance. Larger strokes/circles or taking the ball at the wrong point in your golden triangle can make your recovery harder. But the way I prefer to think about it is that you just learn different strokes for hitting the ball that you can apply to different situations as the demands change. Your standard stroke should give you a finishing position from which you can recover to play a forehand or a backhand (usually, the finishing point is somewhere in the middle of your body). To do this, you need to engage hips/core (if you use just the upper arm, the forehand is usually extremely compromised and footwork is challenged - backhand is a bit more nuanced)..

NextLevel · Nov 5, 2022

The standard coaching advice at the lower levels (and I have heard it from high level players) is usually to balance backswing and follow through. Usually, it is an attempt to make students to understand the importance of the backswing and if this story works, I endorse it. However in practice, as DerEchte points out, you may need a small backswing and a larger follow through to get certain shots done and a small back through may be larger than it seems if there is a small whip/circular element to it. And sometimes, even after a large backswing, you can just snap into the ball and stop - the easiest example of this is serving, but it is also sometimes seen on certain shots. All in all, it depends on how you measure size - the bottom line is if you have a fast moving racket and a good turning effect on the ball, the "size" and such things are usually tied to

1) how did you use your body to take the shot - upper arm strokes are always large, because the upper arm is always slow to recover.
2) where in your stroke path did you hit the ball - did you hit it in your sweet spot or did you have to hit it behind you or in front of you to compensate for awkward positioning?
3) how much quality/power did you get and is the ball coming back? Recovery only matters when the ball is coming back, which it always does against some opponent at some level.

NextLevel · Nov 5, 2022

Brs said:
This is only my personal experience so take it for that. Better players may have other ideas.
... clarify what you mean by "symmetrical around the contact point?"
I failed geometry and had to take it twice, so those words don't really come out to what I wanted to say. The size of the backswing and forward swing are proportional to each other. You don't take a six-inch backswing and a three-foot forward swing, or vice versa. If you want to cream a high easy ball with a straight arm and you backswing 180 degrees, the forward swing is going to finish way out past your left shoulder (for a righty). If you tried to stop that big swing too short your shoulder would break in half. But if you only take a tiny 45 degree backswing because the ball is on you super quick, you would never follow through all the way across the other side of your body. There is no need and it wouldn't physically happen unless you force it to.

Also when i hear you say adjusting (as needed) to a smaller back-swing (when close to the table), i immediately question myself will i have enough power then?

QUESTION: is it possible to use a small, short back-swing, yet generate equal or more power than a bigger, longer back-swing?

Power is massively over-rated for hobby-level players like us. Imo it is only the fifth most important quality of a shot, behind landing on the table, spin, placement, and speed as in early timing, then power.

That said, Yes it is possible for a small swing to generate more power than a big one. Stroke length is one factor in power, and all else equal a longer stroke will generate more power. But all else is rarely equal. I am not smart enough to list all the factors or rank them exactly, maybe somebody else wants to try. But using you body properly to generate great bat speed at contact is more important than raw stroke size. Same with timing the contact to both the position of the ball relative to the table and relative to your body. You can use the same size of stroke and touch the ball too far in front of you and get hardly any power. Or when the ball has dropped too low and you can't apply power because you have no angle. Or play the exact same stroke length and touch the ball right in your power zone and at the top of the bounce and absolutely crush it.

The power your opponent put on the incoming ball is another factor that you have to consider. Normally if you don't have time to take a long swing it's because the ball is coming fast. You don't need or want a long swing when the ball already has power on it.

Ask yourself how many points you lose because you made shots but they weren't powerful enough, compared to how many you lost by missing the table trying to play powerful shots. There is a point of diminishing returns to power somewhere along the scale for every player. Most of us think it is way higher for ourselves than what it really is.

I endorse all this now I read it carefully, I think where there can be subtle confusion is that we often discuss strokes in TT by describing what the racket does, and many people then focus on the size of the stroke by watching the arm, but the truth is that proper use of the core can send the racket over a long distance , while improper use of the upper arm can do the same, and both can have very different results. Someone can play what looks like a small stroke with his upper arm, and have a really crappy stroke, and some can play what looks like a large stroke primarily with his core and remain in balance to play the next ball. A lot of stroke size is determined by the use of your lower body to remain in balance. I think the stroke circle (your use, not my original one) helps here because it enables people to see how the stroke goes.

My general principle is that there should be a mild tension on your core. Your arm/elbow should always have slight bend. You use your legs to lunge slightly and play a forehand. You use your hips to bend slightly and play a backhand.

Of course, all this is theory - we have all received lots of coaching. I could execute half of what I described. I should probably edit this video before sharing it, but people who wanted to see what I trained like 2-3 years ago may like it. I have bad knees and the depth of my lunch on my forehand always sucked so I often overcompensated with the arm or could play one heavy windmill forehand. All that said, you can see a stark difference in how I use the core versus someone who doesn't at all. But I would look like a beginner next to most expert players who would engage their cores much better.. But you learn over time that TT is about many things, some mental, and not all athletic.

LDM7 · Nov 5, 2022

Nov 4, 2022 Friday night session (Church)

I don't want to be overly down on myself for having a good time, I did have fun 👏

However, (I think) I rather make improvements over entertainment any day b/c as i get better, i will have more fun

so there is a sense of delayed gratification here

THANGS WENT WELL:

was able to get through several planned drills with notable progress
increased confidence in both FH & BH open vs back-spin
able to run down wide FH (3rd ball open with a loop) landing ball on other side with higher quality
able to run down wide FH and recognize I am late or not in ideal strike-zone and adjusting bat angle (subconsciously) landing the ball on the other side (2 months ago i would've just gave up or piss the point away)
my mind is more conditioned to keeping my feet moving (instead of standing up, admiring my shot) after a wide FH and keep feet adjusting middle, ready for next
finally, i am much more comfortable with BH keeping me in a point (especially after a wide FH)

OPPORTUNITY TO SHINE BRIGHTER:

practice pace was too fast, i forgot my RRPE (Respond, Re-set, Plan, Execute)
my FH 3rd consecutive loop (7th ball as a server) back-swing is way too big
recognizing a slower, high ball on BH side to step in and firm up before smacking the ball
my BH flick is non-existent

Ta 'Ta' 4 Now

LDM7

LDM7 · Nov 5, 2022

NextLevel said:

There you go with a BS vid again ... WE GOT TO TALK NL!

pingpongpaddy · Nov 5, 2022

a lot of buzzwords flying about
maybe it would be better to focus more specific instances of ldm7 technique which are either good or bad, in order to get somewhere

Der_Echte · Nov 5, 2022

LDM7 said:
Nov 4, 2022 Friday night session (Church)

I don't want to be overly down on myself for having a good time, I did have fun 👏

I have frequently publicly said that there can be a LOT gained by goofing off. In one way, it is practicing something in a more relaxed manner without pressure. In a 2 year span when SITTA TTC operated, I gained just under 300 ratings points. I basically went to the club 2x a week and mostly goofed off. I avoided playing league and pretty much messed around with friends or helped the newb and lower rated crowd. At church I played a lot of singles and doubles matches, then focused on trying to train a Pastor into a topspin player.

I gained a LOT of touch goofing off those two years. Sure, it wasn't goofing off all the time every time, but it was over half the time. Sure, I had a lot of the technique down, but touch and mental aspect needed a lot of work. I developed one mindset for the TT hall and one for the tourney hall. It worked for me.

If a player doesn't enjoy what they are doing, they will not stick with it very long. That is why I will not discourage LDM7 or anyone from having some fun, you need a component of that.

A major attraction to this sport is one can ALWAYS be improving multiple things, literally until one expires. It is good to know that the possibility to improve until one's expiration date is real if one wants it.

IB66 · Nov 5, 2022

A quick run down of this weeks events.
mon / Tuesday knee a calf we’re really tight, eased off wed/Thursday.
Match on Thursday night, back and knee were surprisingly good considering how they felt after coaching on Tuesday evening.
Match Friday evening, back and knee were good, moving slightly better.

I’ll post 2 videos 1 from each match.

Before that, a run down of an incident during the doubles on Thursday

Doubles is the last game of the match, during the second end I had a fall. In the UK we have a programme called ‘You’ve been framed’ funny film clips, if yours is used in the programme you gat £250. Unfortunately I only recorded my singles games. If I had filmed the doubles a cheque would be winging its way to me now!!
Mid rally I played a stroke, then started to move back, feet were not listening to commands, it was like they were somewhere else in the world performing a jig!! Anyway I fell backwards, my head smashed into partners right knee, arse hit the floor hard followed by my head.
After contact with the ground I sort of looked round and saw my partner holding up his leg a hopping about the hall trying to find a seat to land on. Like out of a TOM & JERRY cartoon!!
There were about 4 people watching and the 2 opposition players, they were all laughing their heads off, even when asking if we were both ok, for an onlooker it must have been really funny!!
A couple of minutes later and we resumed the match, the guy umpiring couldn’t keep a straight face, every time he looked at the pair of us he just burst into laughter!! this was made worse when I air shot a serve receive and my partner gave me the ‘what the ####’ look, I replied dead pan style ‘I’m concussed’ the umpire was finished!! Another minute or so later when he finally composed himself the game continued.

Now funny as the incident was at the time, a couple of consequences-
1) partners knee - looks quite bad

2) Had a pre booked session with physio this morning - mild whiplash and likely very mild concussion.
mid back, very tender, not painful until she examined, just about where I felt the arse impact rattled up my spine. Lower back and knee feel the best they have for weeks!!!

who said TT isn’t dangerous?? Moral of the story, beware partnering IB66!!!

hopefully John’s knee isn’t too bad, but he couldn’t sleep Thursday night cos of the pain, photo was taken Friday am. I’m feeling shite because I have hurt the fella, totally unintentionally but still leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Brs · Nov 5, 2022

Littledragonman7 said:
It's just so damn hard to not hit (loop) hard, harder then hardest (actually there is rarely a hardest for me, i usually miss my 3rd loop 85% of the time b/c i am trying to hit it so hard, using a long back-swing & hit edge or late ... )

Let me see if i can figure out a way to tame the beast by substituting his thirst with something else

LDM7 Out

This problem is very easy to fix. Prioritize spin. Instead of wanting to hit a winner past someone, want them to block your loops off the end over and over. Your forum motto says Spin Wins! It's true. You will develop good feeling faster. And once you become way too spinny for an opponent it's over for them, they have no chance or tactics that can defeat you.

IB66 · Nov 5, 2022

Match from Thursday

Shaun’s ranking is about 2100, mine 1370

https://youtu.be/yxXDHSfp4cU

IB66 · Nov 5, 2022

Friday night match

Fred’s rating is 1800, I’ve played him twice before, lost both 3-0, lost 3-1 last night.

https://youtu.be/YDn6iP1_55c

NextLevel · Nov 5, 2022

IB66 said:
Friday night match

Fred’s rating is 1800, I’ve played him twice before, lost both 3-0, lost 3-1 last night.

https://youtu.be/YDn6iP1_55c

Still watching the Shaun match, that is definitely a different level of player from the matches you have generally shared.

Seems to be using some kind of medium pips on his backhand. The comments below are for the Shaun match.

You played well, the opponent is very formidable. The disparity in the second game was balanced out by your winning the 3rd game.

I think the main recommendation I would work on if I were your coach is your ready position and the structure of your blocking. You play the block with a very different form from how you play your forehand/backhand - your block is mostly upper arm reaching but your topspin is a full body stroke. You should try to. Integrate some lower body into your blocking so it becomes more stable and you can react to the ball with one mindset/movement. Someone looping to you and you doing some standard blocking with a stable elbow position and learning to keep that elbow position throughout the rally (some call it the high racket position) would help you defend some of these topspins/rallies better I think. You just need come forward slightly to block as opposed to stabbing out the arm. The stabbing will always be there for you. But I think the stable blocking game would expand your repertoire and help your readiness. Some of it is footwork related but some of it is just stability of form. Just get your full upper body behind your block a bit more.

Brs · Nov 5, 2022

IB66 said:
Friday night match

Fred’s rating is 1800, I’ve played him twice before, lost both 3-0, lost 3-1 last night.

https://youtu.be/YDn6iP1_55c

I only watched this match. Good serving as usual, you won some free points that way. Your fh has a big advantage. You won most of your points there. Your opponent's fh is worse than his bh. You made some really nice backhands, 6 or 8 of them. But your percentage was low, and probably because of the low success rate you played many more passive pushes. Even when your bhs went on they go diagonally into his strength so some of them came back.

So tactically it seems like you would want to play all forehands as much as possible, but your serves were mostly setting up the bh, and you even stepped over sometimes to play bh topspins instead of a more natural fh. You flipped that dynamic in the game you won. The step around 3rd ball at 7:48 was probably your nicest play of the match. And then in the fourth he got some lucky nets.

So in general I don't think you are weaker than this guy. Rather you are mostly playing your weakness against his strength. If you could control the patterns to be mostly fh-fh exchanges you would win 3 - 1 or 3 - 2. It seems like that could be done. What happens if you serve to his fh, or push receives to his fh instead of his bh? Does he have an opening fh loop vs backspin? Cause you do, you played some really pretty ones right from the start of the match. So if he pushes back third balls to your fh I think he has problems.

NextLevel · Nov 5, 2022

IB66 said:
Friday night match

Fred’s rating is 1800, I’ve played him twice before, lost both 3-0, lost 3-1 last night.

https://youtu.be/YDn6iP1_55c

Fred is quite beatable. BrS has pointed out the tactical elements. Fred has no forehand. If a guy doesnt lunge or turn his body to play a forehand it is usually a large tell (I don't so I know). You could have tested it with longer serves with side backspin reverse. See whether he can get those over the net and what technique he uses. He would likely pop the ball up with pushes. Just about all his forehands came from pushing dead to you and waiting for you to pop the ball up. A few countersmashes which show his experience. Looping into his elbow or wide would get you the upper hand every time.

Still watching.

So Fred is very crafty and experienced player for sure. You are struggling to read his low toss serve but I am not sure how much he varied it. But other than popups, his forehand is clearly a sore spot so I would try long deep backspin and side backspin serves to the forehand. Just to see what happens. Such serves are usually a no-no vs a looper like you so no one practices them but people not doing that might be what helps Fred win more matches. He is likely to push them and if you open on those, the blocks will usually go long unless very has a great countersmash.

I think you need to practice a lot of footwork but not high intensity continuous multiball footwork. Just have your coach play a ball and you move as slowly or as quickly ad you want to to play the ball but always using the right movement or the movement that you would ideally like to use. I find that keeping the balance at slow speed is sometimes enough to train the movement as adrenaline and excitement may do the rest.

When you go over the table, you sometimes extend or use the upper arm in ways that lose the stability of your stroke. Adult learner stuff. I know you are trying to balance out your game with more backhand so I think a really good block would really help you. Your core is really strong you just need to engage it more on all your strokes not just your good ones.

LDM7 · Nov 5, 2022

pingpongpaddy said:
a lot of buzzwords flying about
maybe it would be better to focus more specific instances of ldm7 technique which are either good or bad, in order to get somewhere

are you out of Jameson 18 Yr?

if you PE me your address then i'll sent over a pint of the Iriish's finest 👍

How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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