How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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Sometimes in table tennis, we old learners (and even some of our teachers) act as if certain strokes are advanced and other strokes are not so advanced etc. I think the earlier you learn a stroke the better, and I think when you start to see topspin, you should immediately learn to play counter topspins or you will be mentally stuck with blocking when you see certain patterns and have to over come resistance to improve. So the biggest recommendation I would give you right now LDM7 is that when your opponent topspins to your forehand, just play a counter *over* the ball as it will help you have the right mindset when the ball comes to your forehand. It may even help you get a better backhand as when you do this, many people will stop playing to your forehand and you can get balls to your backhand to work on and practice. Don't get stuck in the blocking mindset.
 
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Hey LDM - looking good in that match, much more poise and confidence.


On my side, I was playing the best team in our league last night but it was in a fairly small shed so no chance for a video. That may be a good thing however as all three opponents use pips (2 x long and 1 x short) - I struggled big time. Despite knowing what I should do vs these guys, and rehearsing it mentally, I was unable to actually carry it off and so found myself hitting float balls long or backspin balls into the net - I lost all three matches and took only one game.

I am determined not to be beaten mentally by pimples players so need more practice against them.

Keep fighting buddy ;-)


Afternoon Wrighty,

that's cooL we're working on some of the same stuff i.e. BH open & pips, keeping a watch on each other

Thanks for your feedback & encouraging me to keep fighting 👍

IB66 & i are waiting on your vid whenever you get a chance (W or L) followed by a vid bye week (take a breather, catch up & practice time)

tc,

LDM7

 
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Afternoon Wrighty,

that's cooL we're working on some of the same stuff i.e. BH open & pips, keeping a watch on each other

Thanks for your feedback & encouraging me to keep fighting 👍

IB66 & i are waiting on your vid whenever you get a chance (W or L) followed by a vid bye week (take a breather, catch up & practice time)

tc,

LDM7

Cool - we have a break now until Dec for matches so may not get one recorded but will try.

 
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That was a fun and impressive match. Shame about the fuzzy focus, but still lots of good stuff

=> used my wife's older cellphone with micro SD still working out the kinks
=> i use PingSkills "vault" (app on my phone) to keep notes on every plyr, by dedicating my wife's cell for video recording only, allowing me to read up on plyr notes before i play that plyr (puts me a little ahead already)


Your forehand topspin was just okay. It suffered from you clearly wanting to play, and setting up for, all backhands, so that's not bad

=> i am a little surprised to hear that, knowing you're pushing me to be better
=> last night I was consciously open (less push) with my BH b/c it's a weakness (for now) & i don't have to run around my FH all the time, gets tiring man
=> i want to get to a point where i can win with both BH & FH
=> pls note rally from 2nd vid (1:17) & (2:53) i was channeling BRS to spin in control the point, not taking greater risk pissing my third loop away with an all or nothing kill

good day 👍

LDM7

 

Brs

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You had a lot of long rallies which is what made it fun to watch. Definitely being patient and spinning, and then making a smart shot selection when to play the fh smash on a high ball. Real good stuff.

For sure you will end up being able to attack on both sides. What I meant to say is that if you are deliberately working on one thing in a match, as it appeared you were on backhand topspin here, it's not useful to evaluate the other side.
 
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My 11/7/Monday night RR vs Kevin (3-2)

we played once before on Oct 24, lost 2-3 (i think 8-11 in the 5th), so i am encouraged by a different result tonight 👏

end of 5th game was cut off, continued onto a second mp4 ... i don't know why

thanks for pointing out a few areas of strengths to expand as well as a few opportunities to shine brighter 👍

LDM7

Hi LDM7,

I am thinking about how I can give some useful comments on your video as I wish. It is not an easy task for me.

Yes. I see you have got some valuable advises above. I think you can focus on those first. I don't want to give you too many detailed things that will only get you distracted.

The thing in my first impression and should be in your priority list is what Der have mentioned first:
You tend to lean back when opening with the BH. Some of it is that you are too upright before impact.

This not only happened on your BH but on your FH as well. Some of the consequences of it are including but not limited to:
1, Leaning back with BH
2, Your hitting zone is too flexible and not in ideal location
3, Turning your wrist over in your stroke like at 13:58

Hitting zone should be in front of your chest, not too far and not too close. You can do some research online to know more about hitting zone.

Training for managing your hitting zone:
I see you are doing shadow practice at home. When you are doing shadow practice at home, you can try to imagine how the ball comes to you. Put something in front of you and imagine how the ball past the point and comes to you. Move your foot in a small range of about 20cm when you are imagining the placement of incoming ball slightly changed. Mix BH and FH strokes in your shadow practice. Keep your hand in front of you when switching BH and FH.

 
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Sometimes in table tennis, we old learners (and even some of our teachers) act as if certain strokes are advanced and other strokes are not so advanced etc. I think the earlier you learn a stroke the better, and I think when you start to see topspin, you should immediately learn to play counter topspins or you will be mentally stuck with blocking when you see certain patterns and have to over come resistance to improve. So the biggest recommendation I would give you right now LDM7 is that when your opponent topspins to your forehand, just play a counter *over* the ball as it will help you have the right mindset when the ball comes to your forehand. It may even help you get a better backhand as when you do this, many people will stop playing to your forehand and you can get balls to your backhand to work on and practice. Don't get stuck in the blocking mindset.

I'm noticing being asked to commit earlier during rallies by re-condition my mind to counter when meeting a FH topspin ball, away from using a FH block as a first response, I L!KE IT

This is new territory so will discuss w/ Der for a drill or two incorporating in training regiment

Good looking out NL

 
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You had a lot of long rallies which is what made it fun to watch. Definitely being patient and spinning, and then making a smart shot selection when to play the fh smash on a high ball. Real good stuff.

For sure you will end up being able to attack on both sides. What I meant to say is that if you are deliberately working on one thing in a match, as it appeared you were on backhand topspin here, it's not useful to evaluate the other side.

thanks for noticing i had BH OPENING as a focus on this league night

i finally worked up the courage to DO IT during competition (i'm so sick of jst talking about it ... scared)

in my youthful exuberance i mis-interpreted your comment as your meaning was clear

BRS, you have no idea how excited & hopeful i am about the trajectory of my Pinga Ponga game

thank you for being a part of my journey 👍

 
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LDM7,

Both you and your opponent are on a good path. There are lots of things one can point out, but as an adult learner, the fixes can take you in a lot of directions and I think it is best you just work with the philosophy your coach wants for you to make it all come together. For me, I often stand straight when playing backhands, but I keep my elbow to the side and finish my stroke forward, just like I am tossing a frisbee. I also some times do so straight punch-like topspin with a wrist cock (like Liam Pitchford showed in the video I shared) on the backswing but brush the ball. There are so many options on the backhand, it is up to you and your coach to work on any one and continue to improve it.

Good work overall - I will see when I finish the video whether there is anything special. I will say that you need to be more consistent about the body rotation on the forehand side and stop keeping your elbow so close to your body if you want to get more leverage into your forehand. But that can be compensated for with timing and is very common with adult learners.

your commenting style is easy on the ears NL, matter of fact, nothing unusual to see here ... even-keeled 💪

i am struggling with the idea there are many BH options & different shots warranted pending incoming ball

as a developing plyr, i kinda' jst want to be told one way (jst get me started) to garner some success & confidence, then add variety (perfect it) after achieving working competence ... right now i am jst uncomfortable, hesitating, unsure and plain ol' grumpy

you should've been there when der was trying to get me to BH flick ... OMG, boomerang, banana flick, str8 flick, com'on man

"true that" on being more consistent with the FH body rotation - working on it

also you are the second person pointing out keeping my FH elbow further out (i'm channeling being grand & majestic), believing & trusting there's time to react to an in-coming BH ball

safe & merry holidays to you & family NL

hope we can meet across the table one day!

 
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I see you have got some valuable advises above. I think you can focus on those first. I don't want to give you too many detailed things that will only get you distracted
=> true that

You tend to lean back when opening with the BH. Some of it is that you are too upright before impact
=> i see that in my video too, over & over, this chit's got to stop

Training for managing your hitting zone:
When you are doing shadow practice at home, you can try to imagine how the ball comes to you. Put something in front of you and imagine how the ball past the point and comes to you. Move your foot in a small range of about 20cm when you are imagining the placement of incoming ball slightly changed. Mix BH and FH strokes in your shadow practice. Keep your hand in front of you when switching BH and FH

=> rally-like & transferable
=> started doing captain's chair yesterday in support of a lower BH open stance & able to maintain it (so far only about 20~25 sec per set)

Thanks for reaching out Lycanthrope and a safe & merry holidays to you & yours!

LDM7

 
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The main trick to playing the forehand in front of you is that the legs have to facilitate the core being turned towards the ball on the backswing so you are looking at the area within which you are going to hit the ball. For adult learners who dont have time or dont anticipate well, it is common to just swing at the ball with a compromised turn and backswing mostly with the arm. Training can make it better but it is always a lot of work and requires the lower body to help a lot.
 
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Brs

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i am struggling with the idea there are many BH options & different shots warranted pending incoming ball

as a developing plyr, i kinda' jst want to be told one way (jst get me started) to garner some success & confidence, then add variety (perfect it) after achieving working competence ... right now i am jst uncomfortable, hesitating, unsure and plain ol' grumpy

you should've been there when der was trying to get me to BH flick ... OMG, boomerang, banana flick, str8 flick, com'on man

So I have some different opinions from NL and Der on learning TT. *NOT* saying they are wrong and I am right. Only that everyone is different. In general it is smart to listen to your coach and trust them to guide you. But I'll put this out in case anyone finds it interesting or maybe we can have a fun debate.

I would not want to put any time into BH flick if I were you. Imo training things that won't often arise in matches at your current level is undesirable. This assumes training time is very limited. But that's true for 99% of adults. This preference is based more on psychology than logic. NL supports learning advanced skills as early as possible. I personally had this conversation with him about my own counterlooping. But NL also doesn't get upset about missing the table. So he could use the advanced skills in match play even if his success rate was low. I put too much emphasis on winning practice matches and would shy away from a counterloop or a bh flick if at first I only made 30% of them say. And if you won't use it under pressure then it will never get any better in matches. So it's useless to train things you don't yet have the courage to use for reals.

This is not right or wrong. You just need to know what kind of player/person you really are when it comes to tolerating mistakes/failure/losing meaningless training matches.

About there being many different strokes each for backhand/fh/flicks/ etc. This is true in a very real way. But I don't find it to be a helpful mental construct for most people. It implies you have to choose between a few options under super tight time pressure for every ball. This stresses people out, we tighten up our muscles, play all stiff like shit, step back for more time we don't really need and take balls too low, and lots of unwanted and unnecessary things happen in reality all because of this false construct in our minds.

I prefer to think about it like this. Every player has only one backhand stroke. One fh. One bh flick. One of each major thing. But every ball comes with a different location relative to your body, speed, spin, trajectory, and so on. We adjust our one stroke to fit the ball. The purpose of anticipation, footwork and timing is to make the required adjustment as small as humanly possible. But there will always be a range of adjustments from tiny like opening the bat 1 degree more, to massive like moving your elbow 18 inches diagonally up and to the right to play a full-chicken-wing backhand. It doesn't look like the same stroke. There is massive logic to thinking of it as a totally different stroke. But imo it is very much not helpful to think that way. It's the same stroke, your one and only backhand stroke. You just did a poor job of movement on that ball, meaning your opponent did well. Life goes on, play the next ball.

 
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So I have some different opinions from NL and Der on learning TT. *NOT* saying they are wrong and I am right. Only that everyone is different. In general it is smart to listen to your coach and trust them to guide you. But I'll put this out in case anyone finds it interesting or maybe we can have a fun debate.

I would not want to put any time into BH flick if I were you. Imo training things that won't often arise in matches at your current level is undesirable. This assumes training time is very limited. But that's true for 99% of adults. This preference is based more on psychology than logic. NL supports learning advanced skills as early as possible. I personally had this conversation with him about my own counterlooping. But NL also doesn't get upset about missing the table. So he could use the advanced skills in match play even if his success rate was low. I put too much emphasis on winning practice matches and would shy away from a counterloop or a bh flick if at first I only made 30% of them say. And if you won't use it under pressure then it will never get any better in matches. So it's useless to train things you don't yet have the courage to use for reals.

This is not right or wrong. You just need to know what kind of player/person you really are when it comes to tolerating mistakes/failure/losing meaningless training matches.

About there being many different strokes each for backhand/fh/flicks/ etc. This is true in a very real way. But I don't find it to be a helpful mental construct for most people. It implies you have to choose between a few options under super tight time pressure for every ball. This stresses people out, we tighten up our muscles, play all stiff like shit, step back for more time we don't really need and take balls too low, and lots of unwanted and unnecessary things happen in reality all because of this false construct in our minds.

I prefer to think about it like this. Every player has only one backhand stroke. One fh. One bh flick. One of each major thing. But every ball comes with a different location relative to your body, speed, spin, trajectory, and so on. We adjust our one stroke to fit the ball. The purpose of anticipation, footwork and timing is to make the required adjustment as small as humanly possible. But there will always be a range of adjustments from tiny like opening the bat 1 degree more, to massive like moving your elbow 18 inches diagonally up and to the right to play a full-chicken-wing backhand. It doesn't look like the same stroke. There is massive logic to thinking of it as a totally different stroke. But imo it is very much not helpful to think that way. It's the same stroke, your one and only backhand stroke. You just did a poor job of movement on that ball, meaning your opponent did well. Life goes on, play the next ball.

I think that we (DerEchte, BRS, and myself) agree and disagree on many things and for many reasons. Which is part of table tennis - but I don't agree with BRS's view of why I recommend counterlooping early though I do agree with differ on the philosophical value.

The first thing about counterlooping is that many young kids do it in practice with each other. Even adults can do it for fun once they step back from the table. The hardest thing about counterlooping is the quality of the opponent and how early you do it. But one thing I learned was that the people who started it earlier had fewer problems with it. And since balls come long, you just have to learn to do it. One could argue that most opponents at the 1200 level don't loop so why should you learn to counter their loop. I would argue that looping is a style at every level of play, and the attitude of someone who plays a standard block with their forehand is not that different from someone who plays a standard topspin, just that one got practice earlier doing it.

Now the short game is a very different story from the above, you won't see someone winning with an advanced short game under 2200, but if you want to practice playing chiquitas for fun, anything is enjoyable. But this is very different from looping and counterlooping at the lower levels. The thing is that if you learn to loop topspin at the lower levels or even hit it, you get better at doing so as your level gets better. if you learn to backhand flick or push short, you will not use that skill at the lower levels in any meaningful way.

Attitude to practice is an individual thing, but practicing counterlooping early can influence your playing style in a very important way. Even if you never use it in a match.
 
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I'm noticing being asked to commit earlier during rallies by re-condition my mind to counter when meeting a FH topspin ball, away from using a FH block as a first response, I L!KE IT

This is new territory so will discuss w/ Der for a drill or two incorporating in training regiment

Good looking out NL

BTW, forehand blocking isn't the end of the world, but there are different kinds of blocks, one where the racket is just held out there and one hopes for the best and the other where you play a standard hitting/blocking stroke. If you do the latter, it isn't that different from a countertopspin in some ways. IF you do the former (which is what I am against), that is when I would encourage you to learn to block with positive strokes/counters and even try to spin some of them.

 
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Brs

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I think that we (DerEchte, BRS, and myself) agree and disagree on many things and for many reasons. Which is part of table tennis - but I don't agree with BRS's view of why I recommend counterlooping early though I do agree with differ on the philosophical value.

......

I actually agree with pretty much everything in both your posts. Knowing what I know now I would have started countering earlier. My idea was that learning a proper FH block should not be skipped over. Not that you were advocating that. And I don't want to step back. But those are quibbles, you were right.

On short game we are in complete agreement.

 
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