How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

Wrighty67 · Nov 1, 2022

NextLevel said:
Not at all. While that is ZJK-ML an old match, watch any good player using the principle of body (core) and circle (stroke path). No matter what you think of their stroke/level, if they are playing good table tennis, the body is powering the arm to generate speed and you can see it. The other thing I forgot to mention about recovery is that it is also why some players step two feet or more back from the table, so they can play with more power and respond to more power.. You would never throw a racket using the technique you currently do, try to figure out what it takes to throw things far and try to build similar things into your stroke. Then make the range of the motion smaller and smaller - think Bruce Lee, one inch punch - to punch with power over one inch, you use your hips and torso, not your arm. It might feel less powerful to you, but let the ball speed and consistency be the evidence/feedback. You have really excellent touch, so I suspect if you use your core better, your results will get better in relatively short time (6-12 months).

I’m excited to start that work - body and circle makes sense. I have struggled to relax enough to really swing freely in the past but feel it needs, along with dynamic footwork, to be a big focus!

NextLevel · Nov 2, 2022

One of my favorite players to watch is... Bernadette Szocs. Not for the reasons most people like to watch her. She consciously talks about spinning thr ball and moving in circles and you can see it on how she hits the ball a s in the use of her core. She often has an exaggerated circle on her backhand and I am not sure how she avoids elbow issues. But she is one of the more obvious circular swinging players you can watch.

Circularity comes from using the body to create the path. to throw the racket (while holding it). In fact, if you have the right circular motion, the same way you crack a whip, you dont swing through the whole motion, but you stop your throw and let the arm/elbow whip into the ball. So you have a target point you need to swing toward and whip the lower arm towards it. This free swinging generates power that you have to moderate by by choice of racket angle and contact point. You will loop the ball off the table when you first do it which is why I usually recommend starting with high balls, but to swing in circles. Feel your core moving in a circle and better yet use your hips or legs to protect your back. And then make the circles smaller. Not tiny but smaller.

Finally, BRS, I dont tell people to bend their knees per se, but I have always had a wide stance. Just have to defend myself there.

Brs · Nov 2, 2022

NextLevel said:
Finally, BRS, I dont tell people to bend their knees per se, but I have always had a wide stance. Just have to defend myself there.

LOL, it was a compliment to your game and no criticism.

Wrighty, about "My only question is how to “contain” this sort of larger, looser swing in terms of compact recovery?"

Imo the answer to that is more about timing than technique. If you don't have precise timing then your stroke has to be longer because that allows more time for bat to meet ball somewhere along the way. To have a compact stroke it has to be right on time. But most of us can really only focus on one thing at a time. So if we pay very much attention to our body and technique, we have less attention to the ball and our timing suffers, which messes up our technique.

In one practice try not noticing your technique at all, be calm and relaxed in your mind, don't try to apply power, and put all your attention onto timing your ball contact with the top of the bounce, or with the ideal contact point slightly in front and to the side of your body. If you get to where you are happy with the timing, it's consistent and you have good control over the contact, film that and see what it looks like. It might be interesting.

Der_Echte · Nov 2, 2022

Hi Wrighty,

I could write a book on the things you do not do on FH that make your FH loop lack the spin or pace it needs (and the control at those levels of spin and/or pace). Rather than overanalyze what I would say about your base FH... it makes more sense to first lay down the foundational things that contribute to a good FH whip stroke. It comes down to these things below...

- Number one in ALL shots - quickly discerning what opponent did to the ball... where it is going when with what at which time... see that (discern impact) and get to a leveraged position Footwork/leveraged stance) ready to set the strike zone and do your shot - you already decided the shot and placement you want

- How to easily generate energy (with feet, legs, torso. shoulders, arms) how to channel it and amplify it through your sequence of relaxed and timed muscle explosions making use of the leverage of your stance and joints and the associated timing of all this... how to use wrist and fingers at end of shot to make more spin and control

- How to effectively judge the strike zone... how to control the strike zone depth for the different shot placements (you lose power/control hitting too far in front or outside effective strike zone)

- How to use your swing arc and control the height at which you strike the ball

- How you FIRM the grip at impact to maximize rebound... or keep it loose (or even feel like you loosen it at impact) to eat incoming spin, or where on the axis of spin to strike the ball for control vs spin

- How to TRANSFER the energy to the ball at impact (discussed a bit above)

- How to make a good reliable whip that makes fast bat speed at impact to take advantage of what I wrote above

Next level and BRS are VERY involved with a national coach in how to do these very things and can articulate these things to the detail of gnat's azz. They are both very understanding of all the things you need to do and can get you to understand them in ways that will make sense to you. They have both done this a while and you will greatly benefit listening to them.

One day you will learn how to be relaxed enough to do all the above and it will open all kind of doors for you.

-

Der_Echte · Nov 2, 2022

brs said:
In one practice try not noticing your technique at all, be calm and relaxed in your mind, don't try to apply power...

There are a gazillion Korean ex-pros and current pros who teach amateur players this very thing - Take away power and hit your shot... or a different articulation - Do NOT go for animal power on your shots - avoid excessive power...

WHY do Korean pros always say this? It is because a player tends to get too tight and use way to long a swing (including over-backswing) and it makes a player too tight in wrong place (shoulder or arm or both) and it really jacks up the power, spin and timing of the shot.

brs is giving you a nugget here.

IB66 · Nov 2, 2022

Hi Wrighty,

Great that you have posted some footage!!
Great comments from Der, BRS and NL!!

One thing to remember is that using legs hips etc is also relevant to serving, well just about any TT stroke!!!!
This is something that gets left by the way side when people serve. Getting the body and weight transfer working for you, getting (or perhaps in the case of serving) finishing lower to the table so you can move to the ready position, already at ready position height as it were.
So for the FH hook serve (Hook being a punch) it leads into what was mentioned earlier about Bruce Lee's inch punch. the use of legs, hip rotation weight transfer, etc lead to a flowing action that may be small, but will result in a much higher quality serve.

Wrighty67 · Nov 2, 2022

IB66 said:
Hi Wrighty,

Great that you have posted some footage!!
Great comments from Der, BRS and NL!!

One thing to remember is that using legs hips etc is also relevant to serving, well just about any TT stroke!!!!
This is something that gets left by the way side when people serve. Getting the body and weight transfer working for you, getting (or perhaps in the case of serving) finishing lower to the table so you can move to the ready position, already at ready position height as it were.
So for the FH hook serve (Hook being a punch) it leads into what was mentioned earlier about Bruce Lee's inch punch. the use of legs, hip rotation weight transfer, etc lead to a flowing action that may be small, but will result in a much higher quality serve.

Makes perfect sense, thanks!

I was watching Ti Longs video on just that for shovel serve a few days back where he says exactly the same

IB66 · Nov 2, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Makes perfect sense, thanks!

I was watching Ti Longs video on just that for shovel serve a few days back where he says exactly the same

Grand Master Ti Long does some really good stuff !! If you haven't already, check out his vids where he replicates some TT stars serves - Ma Long, Mima Ito Etc.

Wrighty67 · Nov 2, 2022

IB66 said:
Grand Master Ti Long does some really good stuff !! If you haven't already, check out his vids where he replicates some TT stars serves - Ma Long, Mima Ito Etc.

Oh, I'm a junky for those vids - amazing to watch and learn from..

Wrighty67 · Nov 2, 2022

NextLevel said:
Wrighty,

A lot of my main comments have been made already, but I would start with trying to get you to hit a fullbody stroke in practice. Unfortunately, my former internet coach has removed all his videos from the internet, but I am a believer that taking your most power CIRCULAR shot (circular shot/curved shot creates spin) while trying to not get injured doing it is a good thing for your technique.

The key to more powerful technique is to use more of your BODY to engage more quality in the stroke. Obviously the legs, the core (especially the core), and use those to transmit power to your arms. All good table tennis strokes should make you feel like you are a top, a helicopter, a windmill, a frisbee thrower etc. There is a circular aspect to good TT - because all our joints are round, all our swings have curves.

The biggest reason your strokes lack power is that you mostly use the upper arm and you use it to swing upward, but you don't swing upward and forward, which is what a helicopter motion with your core would enable you to do. You can do both upward and forward (forward OVER the ball)! You get good spin by doing both. That is why I would encourage you try windmill looping within the limits of injury. Remember, power doesn't come from how hard you swing the arm, it comes from how well you can transmit the power from your core into the arm.

Even away from the table, practice golf swings, or even try to make your bath towel whip. Do it in front of a mirror and see what you have to do to get your upper body engaged and not just your arm. Table tennis loops are throwing motions, just like punchs and frisbee tosses. Try to practice tossing a frisbee and whatever toss technique is getting you the most power is likely exactly how you should play your forehand.

All of the above has the caveat that we are adult learners, so we must always prioritize injury prevention. For a video example of windmill looping (more in a smashing context on an easy ball, again with the caveat that I am not asking you to be Zhang Jike), look at how Jike plays this point:

https://youtu.be/7RO2iTW4yN0?t=52

Note the repeated circular throwing motions to play smashes. Practice some of those smashes so you can get a better feel of getting your body to hit the ball hard.

The point of this is not to get you injured - the point of this is to help you see the concept that gets good balls to go through the table. You have to use the body to move the arm and then throw it forward and upward over the ball, Try practicing the topspin smashes to get a good idea for the potential. Start it on easy balls. Do it fairly slowly to get a good feel of how power goes from the body to the arm. Don't try to throw as hard as you can, throw as relaxed as you can with a full body stroke. If you feel like a whip, you have it right. If you feel you are muscling the ball, you have it wrong.

Then take that feeling in the arm, and make it smaller and smaller..

Wow, that JZK vid is incredible, I’ve not seen that match before.

Something that struck me was that an open up vs what might be half long + heavy backspin is going to be a different shot to a counter loop vs a block or topspin - are the principles of core + circle the Same for both with just a different bat and swing angle? (The former being more of an upward swing and open bat)

LDM7 · Nov 3, 2022

pingpongpaddy said:
hi ldm7 i’ll never retire!

in fact as i post this via wifi on coach i am travelling to club tournament 2day!
ppp

Hi PPP,

That's C00L you're getting out for fresh air, traveling to matches & enjoying pinga ponga

How did you play btw? Also, how many hours do you play/train/compete a week & how well do you recover these days?

I used to train 2 ~ 3 hrs a day, everyday, rarely a day off. Then one day I realized more is not necessarily better (for me)

I was not recovering, my practice quality suffered. So I now play/train every other day, approx 10 ~ 12 hrs per week, using inbetween off-table days for shadow practice (in front of mirror), hand-eye coordination exercises e.g. juggling and light weights, cardio with focus on the posterior chain & core

Any thoughts?

LDM7

LDM7 · Nov 3, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
I am loving this thread and the way it has evolved as it is so relevant to my journey of improvement. LDM7 has asked me to post some video footage from one of my matches, which until last night I didn't have...

Match starts around 1:22 - I am in the blue shirt

What up Wrighty?!

Thank you for posting video. You are a fit dude 👍

I watched your video once (all the way through) and finally caught up on all the good-stuff by the four-amigos

May I also mention two areas (that's working well for my FH) for your consideration?

1) using left hand to set (measure) distance from my body to the ball (strike-zone) by rotating my left shoulder including my left arm towards my right concurrently with my racket back-swing (almost parallel in unisom)

This force my upper body (waist, core, hip, shoulder, both arms) rotating/opened to my right before contacting the ball in front (using my body & less arm and shoulder, legs are for another day)

The power (&/or control) comes from my hip & waist, leading the uncoiling towards my left, ahead of my right arm forward before striking the ball

This practice is NOT yet second nature to me, however I have found success with descent quality of a ball back on the other side each time I execute correctly (especially on a ball right after a wide BH, b/c there's less time to reset for a proper FH loop)

2) Watching the ball literally contacting my racket before admiring my shot LOL 😂

No, seriously, when I see that ball leaves my racket, that is my visual cue to reset/ready for the next ball

all the while I am WORKING ON observing the other's racket (direction, angle & position) for that racket can be (with practice) a tell to where the next ball is going (i think BRS mentioned this in an earlier post)

Finally i believe you BH pushed (service returns and rally exchanges) til' the end of second game where you started topspin BHs

I am right there with you Wrighty, working on my BH flick, BH topspin (loop) and decline less

If you have any thoughts on my feedback (or recorded demo) pls let me know

I train with Der weekly (usually on a friday night)

Take care mate (and thanks for this opportunity to practice talking about pinga ponga)

LDM7

LDM7 · Nov 3, 2022

This is a video of my first match (only 1.8 games recorded for some tech reason)

=> could it be b/c trash is quite full (from gallery), hasn't been emptied for some time?

I won 3-1 but despite the win I found it very uncomfortable watching for a few reasons

=> Wrighty that's good you recognize areas to work & improve

=> i guarantee you ... should you continue to record all your training sessions/matches/lessons and review them from time to time, you will find this routine fruitful (in as little as three months)

=> in time, you will be able to observe your opponents weakness/strengths, tendency, preferences on video, for yourself (with hope this skill translates to real-time, during matches)

=> you can also catalog each plyr, noting where the other is not comfortable and what the other does to make you uncomfortable, you will be that much ahead the next time you two play (you can use a paper note-book or PingSkills Vault)

Finally IBB66 and I have started posting matches on this thread for consumption LOL

sure like to invite you to jump on-board, with the three of us each posting a vid, once a month during different weeks, allowing time, more than one watch, thoughtful comments, ideas, questions ... would you be game?

LDM7

IB66 · Nov 3, 2022

HI LDM7,

interesting that you mention watching the ball leave the bat, this also ties in the what Der was saying about continual improvement, regardless of age etc.
I caught a clip, may have been on Ping Sunday, with Ma Long improving his FH !!!!!! like it needs improving!!!!! 😂 but there's always something that can be worked on!!
ML and coach were working on leaving your head slightly behind body, watching the ball longer onto the bat, then following the ball with the head as it moves away.

LDM7 · Nov 3, 2022

IB66 said:
One thing to remember is that using legs hips etc is also relevant to serving, well just about any TT stroke!!!!

=> I am discovering how to incorporate my hip and leg into my serve

=> also working on a comfortable starting stance, ready to serve, after contact (with eyes on the racket), rotating left, facing forward, racket in front, about an arms length back from the table, looking at the other's racket, anticipate the 3rd ball for open

LDM7

Wrighty67 · Nov 3, 2022

Littledragonman7 said:
This is a video of my first match (only 1.8 games recorded for some tech reason)

=> could it be b/c trash is quite full (from gallery), hasn't been emptied for some time?

I won 3-1 but despite the win I found it very uncomfortable watching for a few reasons

=> Wrighty that's good you recognize areas to work & improve

=> i guarantee you ... should you continue to record all your training sessions/matches/lessons and review them from time to time, you will find this routine fruitful (in as little as three months)

=> in time, you will be able to observe your opponents weakness/strengths, tendency, preferences on video, for yourself (with hope this skill translates to real-time, during matches)

=> you can also catalog each plyr, noting where the other is not comfortable and what the other does to make you uncomfortable, you will be that much ahead the next time you two play (you can use a paper note-book or PingSkills Vault)

Finally IBB66 and I have started posting matches on this thread for consumption LOL

sure like to invite you to jump on-board, with the three of us each posting a vid, once a month during different weeks, allowing time, more than one watch, thoughtful comments, ideas, questions ... would you be game?

LDM7

Thanks LDM,

Not sure why it stopped recording but suspect storage issue with Filmic pro..

im up for posting monthly for sure.

Cheers

Peter

Der_Echte · Nov 3, 2022

BH for the win.

Kim Jung Hoon BH Fast Loop vid... a few revelations (tabletennisdaily.com)

Kim Jung Hoon FH Loop Pointers (tabletennisdaily.com)

NextLevel · Nov 3, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Wow, that JZK vid is incredible, I’ve not seen that match before.

Something that struck me was that an open up vs what might be half long + heavy backspin is going to be a different shot to a counter loop vs a block or topspin - are the principles of core + circle the Same for both with just a different bat and swing angle? (The former being more of an upward swing and open bat)

At the highest levels, yes, they propel the shoulder joint with the whole body, so the way they optimally use their body to play backspin is not so much about bat and swing angle (which is largely the focus in the learning stages), but in building up the core muscles to make efficient movements that support the speed of the stroke in the plane that they want to play it to create the shot.

Most of us learners focus on the arm and try to replicate what we see happening in the pro stroke with happens with the arm. But for really solid technique, you ultimately need to think about how you use your larger muscles (core) to whip your tendons and smaller muscles - not how to tense up the arm to generate maximum strength. For a healthy individual, playing against backspin it might require a lower stance and a deeper lunge to get the racket lower to play a topspin and then to push out of the lunge. Optimal technique for the backhand topspin vs backspin requires an individual to squat for the shot, as one example.. But for an amateur, there will likely be less body/leg/core work and a bit more arm work. (And let's not argue too much about the amateur vs pro distinction, *some* would argue that Timo Boll plays (or used to play) an arm driven forehand topspin so it is all relative). My main point here is to use the body to support the arm as best as you can on all your shots. How specifically you do that will need some work and getting the right coaching.

Finally, you don't always have to go through the whole circle - serves have tiny circular/whip motions. But when you have the feeling, an abbreviated smaller motion will hardly look like a circle at all. But it will feel to you like a circle. And sometimes, the feeling of what happens is more important for your learning than the reality. To spin the ball, you have to make it turn a little.

Part of the trick is to stop at contact on some strokes (though your momentum/whip may carry you past that) on some strokes. But even when you do stop at contact, the full path you intended to use to shape the ball influences its trajectory. The feeling of what happens matters.

PS: That is still to me the greatest match of all time - yes I know nothing about TT, but that is the greatest match of all time. That particular match, Austrian Open final 2011.

LDM7 · Nov 4, 2022

Morning NL,

thanks for your time & effort in explaining process & concepts, detailed & thorough

I gave it multiple reads & need to clarify the following please:

I said at U2200 (not 1200, U2200), that almost no one serves short, so I think your training partner was being kind, I hope it was not DerEchte as it means we have to argue, I think 100% of serves at the U1200 level are loopable
=> nah, not der echte (a training partner), and if you two were to get into an argument, i want to be there!

the issue of course is that the person who loops all of them isn't going to be U1200 for long
=> that's the idea

there is always risk when your stroke is not going into the face of the ball's path, which is usually what happens when you redirect a topspin shot
=> what is the face of the ball's path mean?

The thing about looping is that you are making the ball take a certain path. if you practice by yourself or with your coach under structured conditions, you should be able to vary the arc of your stroke with the spin speed and shape of your stroke
=> are you saying from back-swing to follow-through is not always linear, rather some shots or higher level requires a arc in my stroke path? seems floppy & many moving parts ...

You try to find a ball that puts the stroke on the table after you have guaranteed you know what is on the ball

A stroke is defined by 1) where the racket starts 2) where the racket contacts the ball 3) where the racket finishes, or in other words, the path of your stroke/racket 4) the speed of the racket swing and 5) how thick or thin your contact on the ball was. Of course, the biggest variable not mentioned is the spin on the incoming ball. but that is what you need to practice against to see what happens. Let us say you get reverse sidespin, there are many ways to handle it, but swing one way and see what happens to the ball. then adjust your stroke ( start lower or higher, contact a different point on the ball, and have a different finishing position - change one of the five or even all of the five depending on what you are testing) and see what happens to the ball against the same serve. Continue this process. Then switch the serve to another serve. Continue this process. One of the issues with learning is that the brain adapts to what it always gets, which is why you need to add variation to training to simulate matches so that your brain is forced to adjust faster. If you swing one way all the time, you never practice adjusting to the ball. But if you get some variation in practice, you get into the habit of adjusting both in practice and matches. You need a mix of block and random training if you want to see better match results but also improve your technique over time

=> I CANNOT WAIT to put in practice, train this way

Finally, at a later post you & IB66 discuss FH stroke finishing the circle ... do you mean from back-swing through follow-through?

if so, i am afraid of following through too far at the expense of recovering time??

LDM7

Brs · Nov 4, 2022

Littledragonman7 said:
Finally, at a later post you & IB66 discuss FH stroke finishing the circle ... do you mean from back-swing through follow-through?

if so, i am afraid of following through too far at the expense of recovering time??

LDM7

I think by finishing the circle NL means from ready position back to ready position. That's the circle part, it ends where it starts. No doubt NL will correct if I misunderstood.

Don't be afraid of following through too far. If that happens you would manage it by taking a smaller backswing, because the backswing and followthrough should be close to symmetrical around the contact point. But recovery isn't likely to be any problem if you get the hang of the circle thing NL wants from you, so don't stress about it right now.

How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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