How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

I still stand by my assertion that LDM7 benefits greatly by reading and examining and implementing what both brs and NL say.

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

One could argue that most opponents at the 1200 level don't loop so why should you learn to counter their loop.

Here locally, on Table friggin 5 and 6 of 8 tables in league, you have players rated anywhere from 900 to 1200... and none of them are kids, these are all adult players who never learned as kids... and almost all of them (except for the pips hitters) loop... some can make a little heavy spin too.

Some of these 1100 rated players would easily be 1500-1600 in Northern Virginia or Oklahoma or Texas easily.

Getting back to your point... some of these 1100 old geezer and young adult types can loop more than one in a row strong, so even a 1200 level block that lands on the table just gets another strong loop. Learning how to reduce those loop chances and how to counter can help that crowd.

Some pockets in USA simply get stacked with players having certain skills or higher level, but are rated way below what those levels should be.

On an even different philosophical note, learning a banana flip consistent return can be beneficial as this is a process to see the ball, know when and how to move in to the bounce (or its descent point), and when/how to impact... those sound like pretty good skills and process to be learning as I feel they are transferrable to other critical areas either immediately (how to anticipate and execute a loop vs an incoming deep underspin shortly after bounce for one example) or down the road.

LDM7 · Nov 11, 2022

NextLevel said:
BTW, forehand blocking isn't the end of the world, but there are different kinds of blocks, one where the racket is just held out there and one hopes for the best and the other where you play a standard hitting/blocking stroke. If you do the latter, it isn't that different from a countertopspin in some ways. IF you do the former (which is what I am against), that is when I would encourage you to learn to block with positive strokes/counters and even try to spin some of them.

I get the mentality, attitude & playing style part of FH counter looping

My league group (plyrs) provides many opportunities to counter however I can't recall the last time I attempted one ... mainly b/c i am scared to piss the point away & not conditioned yet

A) on BH side, I don't have a BH loop & I am not sure when to run around & take- over with my FH

B) when incoming topspin ball is in my middle or FH side, my automated 1st response = block (step back, play defense) b/c I am not conditioned to respond any other way

heLL0 Der!

It is true I am spending time practicing skills that i rarely use in league matches, plyrs in my group don't serve short (i'm the only one & not nearly frequent enough), are there opportunities during a rally to flick i.e. flick is not jst for service return, am i thinking ok here?

It's interesting for me to see the 3 wiseman discuss, disagree & share their individual view & philosophy

LDM7 · Nov 11, 2022

Brs said:
So I have some different opinions from NL and Der on learning TT. *NOT* saying they are wrong and I am right. Only that everyone is different. In general it is smart to listen to your coach and trust them to guide you. But I'll put this out in case anyone finds it interesting or maybe we can have a fun debate.

I would not want to put any time into BH flick if I were you. Imo training things that won't often arise in matches at your current level is undesirable. This assumes training time is very limited. But that's true for 99% of adults. This preference is based more on psychology than logic. NL supports learning advanced skills as early as possible. I personally had this conversation with him about my own counterlooping. But NL also doesn't get upset about missing the table. So he could use the advanced skills in match play even if his success rate was low. I put too much emphasis on winning practice matches and would shy away from a counterloop or a bh flick if at first I only made 30% of them say. And if you won't use it under pressure then it will never get any better in matches. So it's useless to train things you don't yet have the courage to use for reals.

This is not right or wrong. You just need to know what kind of player/person you really are when it comes to tolerating mistakes/failure/losing meaningless training matches.

Thanks for your willingness to share a different point of view from your journey

the different philosophies allow me think what's appropriate for my own path firming my own opinion 👍

Brs · Nov 11, 2022

Really you will always do both, block and counter. Watch Kanak vs Hugo at PanAm. He fh blocks when he needs to.

That's the challenge and fun of planning your TT development. You need to bring every skill up to a good level, but you can't do it all at once. What do you learn first and last, more and less, and how do you setup your style and tactics to maximize your match play as you learn.

NextLevel · Nov 11, 2022

Brs said:
Really you will always do both, block and counter. Watch Kanak vs Hugo at PanAm. He fh blocks when he needs to.

That's the challenge and fun of planning your TT development. You need to bring every skill up to a good level, but you can't do it all at once. What do you learn first and last, more and less, and how do you setup your style and tactics to maximize your match play as you learn.

Exactly, relative to pros, or even kids, we have much less training time so we have to find the things to work on that we enjoy and which keep us improving our results. In the end, with a coach like DerEchte, who got the results as an adult, LDM7 is in good hands.

I had a late coach who preached two things more than anything else: work on the things that lose you points in your current matches and have an offensive/counteroffensive approach to winning points built around your strengths and how you want to play. He felt that the earlier you learned to play offensive shots on weak to medium opportunities, the less you had to continue to fix your game as you got better. Since I pushed serves way too much when I started, I would have gained a lot had he been my first coach (my first coach was a chopper so I got into the habit of pushing long serves for way too long). My second coach would actually encourage you to serve long and block/counter the return as an approach to winning the point.

Just trying to get LDM7 started on not building the habit of approach a ball with topspin with fear. Because if you do it for too long, the habit is very hard to break. It is better to play a stroke, miss and adapt over time - a non-technical block doesn't do that much better in the long term.

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

You need to bring every skill up to a good level, but you can't do it all at once.

YES.

... and this is an issue for nearly EVERY adult learner. The player grows and increasingly realizes what needs improvement and it mission creeps into EVERYTHING needs improvement.

... and of course it is damn impossible to train everything all the time.

As a result, many players end up having a training path of a ricocheting bullet. That means the focus changes every often and no coherent plan to "get there", although there are many paths to "get there".

One way to continually practice core things and rotate the important ancillary things through sessions.

Mentally, it is damn difficult to be a beginning adult learner. The player wants everything to get better and have it get there TODAY. Since that is a mission impossible, and given this determined mindset to improve quickly, the player is continually experiencing friction and disappointment. I do my best to mitigate this by doing my best to communicate reasonable expectations and understanding of processes.

It is not easy to be in these stages. Many players give up before they turn any corner on any of this.

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

b/c I am not conditioned to respond any other way

heLL0 Der!

Watch what I do when Pastor Roman attacks. Watch HOW I do it (in a simple way). Watch how to get the ball into the zone and take a direct swing path to the ball in the strike zone. Watch how little it takes to make an offensive counter shot. Watch how I leverage with my body without a full body twist and channel my small leg and hip into a short lower arm and firm at impact and how a stroke that short explodes the ball.

of course, one can learn and train a counter... but even attempting it in a match is a damn difficult habit to establish. (as you noted)

One way to develop this over time is how you handle your GOOF OFF time with TT. This is a form of practice without any pressure and you end up making things in these goof off times very intuitive and natural... since you do not have a drill instructor hovering over you.

When you goof off in TT not playing a match, you generally do not have any worries about missing... you simply do not care, you are out for fun and experimentation and relaxing. You can grow a lot by goofing off in many ways.

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

As for wisemen, I can probably name several trios of wisemen who are much wiser than any of us... but I guess I would rate pretty high up there in the ranks of wisecracker or wiseazz jokers...

NextLevel · Nov 11, 2022

Old_Wise_High_Toss_Serving_Man said:
When you goof off in TT not playing a match, you generally do not have any worries about missing... you simply do not care, you are out for fun and experimentation and relaxing. You can grow a lot by goofing off in many ways.

This is very critical as goofing time is when you build your touch. And then you try the things that amaze you or you work on lobbing/fishing. You can build habits that you may use to win points in rare situations especially against lower rated players or if you are lucky, mess around and learn things hitting with higher rated players. Of course you can also build some bad habits... but all in all, anything that makes you understand the ball better is good.

Richie · Nov 11, 2022

Der_Echte said:
Watch what I do when Pastor Roman attacks. Watch HOW I do it (in a simple way). Watch how to get the ball into the zone and take a direct swing path to the ball in the strike zone. Watch how little it takes to make an offensive counter shot. Watch how I leverage with my body without a full body twist and channel my small leg and hip into a short lower arm and firm at impact and how a stroke that short explodes the ball.

of course, one can learn and train a counter... but even attempting it in a match is a damn difficult habit to establish. (as you noted)

One way to develop this over time is how you handle your GOOF OFF time with TT. This is a form of practice without any pressure and you end up making things in these goof off times very intuitive and natural... since you do not have a drill instructor hovering over you.

When you goof off in TT not playing a match, you generally do not have any worries about missing... you simply do not care, you are out for fun and experimentation and relaxing. You can grow a lot by goofing off in many ways.

I've been following the thread and appreciate the wisdom being spread here.

I was gonna chime in with exactly this. When I played in my university club in the UK all we did was mess around. I wasn't really exposed to drills until I came back to Sweden. One or the other extreme isn't optimal of course. But I and those guys spent hours into the night after our local league games just trying to spin the ball in different ways and do all kind of touch shots.

I'm sure it helped my touch and gave exposure to tons of different balls without any pressure. It was just so much fun, there was no thinking about any improvement around it. Ignorance of technique back then was kind of bliss, until I got exposure to better table tennis. A bit later I became desperate to improve and a bit frustrated with the lack of coaching, knowledge, drills and organized practice etc.

Having that touch is a big help for when you're learning better mechanics/technique. It's difficult to apply the technique and the different gradients of it without good touch. I built a bit too many bad habits from my messing around for my taste back then, but it wasn't just because of that, mostly lack of exposure to better technique.

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

Yes Richie,

I would agree that increased touch is one of the things to be gained during goof of time and it is HUGE.

Der_Echte · Nov 11, 2022

As for spreading wisdom, I would in many other circles be loudly and falsely accused of spreading mis-information.

I would accept that those commenting are simply being reasonable in their ways and views, whether they all say the same thing or not. There is no single correct answer in TT.

IB66 · Nov 11, 2022

Goofing off for serve practice really helps with touch, understanding bat angles, approach angels and swing paths, putting the same type of spin on the ball in different ways Etc, EtcPutting paper cups on the table as Gates, or barriers that act as a path the ball has to follow.You don’t even have to do a serve as such. Just hit the ball and learn!!making the ball return to the net with a different number of bounces before it bounces back over the net,Making the ball turn 90 degrees and follow the end of the table. With side/back spin, neat side spin, side/top spin.see if you can make the ball curve around the net post.Target practice, knock the cup over, make the ball land in the cup, one bounce and in , one bounce backwards and in,there’s loads of stuff, like trick serves etc etcYou may not use the things you learn in a match but you can take certain bits n pieces and incorporate into a match quality serve. For example the ball turning 90 degrees and tracking along the end of the table with various spins, 1st you goof off and just get the ball to do what you want, then gradually incorporate into a serve.Its great for practice for touch, feel, how to brush the ball etc etcOh yeah I forgot to mention ITS FUN !!!!!!!!

NextLevel · Nov 12, 2022

IB66 said:
Goofing off for serve practice really helps with touch, understanding bat angles, approach angels and swing paths, putting the same type of spin on the ball in different ways Etc, EtcPutting paper cups on the table as Gates, or barriers that act as a path the ball has to follow.You don’t even have to do a serve as such. Just hit the ball and learn!!making the ball return to the net with a different number of bounces before it bounces back over the net,Making the ball turn 90 degrees and follow the end of the table. With side/back spin, neat side spin, side/top spin.see if you can make the ball curve around the net post.Target practice, knock the cup over, make the ball land in the cup, one bounce and in , one bounce backwards and in,there’s loads of stuff, like trick serves etc etcYou may not use the things you learn in a match but you can take certain bits n pieces and incorporate into a match quality serve. For example the ball turning 90 degrees and tracking along the end of the table with various spins, 1st you goof off and just get the ball to do what you want, then gradually incorporate into a serve.Its great for practice for touch, feel, how to brush the ball etc etcOh yeah I forgot to mention ITS FUN !!!!!!!!

When someone who has put ludicrous hours into serve practice writes, I can empathize and tell. I made a never published video on how to practice changing spins by serving into a towel - the towel slows down the ball so you can read the trajectory/spin and see whether you got enough spin to make the path correct. and of course, you don't have to run the whole length of the table to pick it up... my girlfriend at the time thought I was nuts...

LDM7 · Nov 12, 2022

Thank y'all for chiming in, for your opinions & experiences make me think a bit ... personalizing what i like & agree

i am going to allow some "goof off" time in my training, multiple ppl (in addition to der) affirm value here & as richie pointed out "it's just so much fun!" I am starting to look at training sessions not always have to be so regimented, besides I want to have fun TOO

in addition to strengthen my EVERYTHING BH (less pushing, more open w/ topspin) i am definitely going to add some sort of a FH counter (anything other than a soft-grip block )

I like the message it sent, asserting pressure back onto the other when they stress me

LDM7

LDM7 · Nov 15, 2022

@IBB66

https://www.tabletennisengland.co.uk/why-our-coaching-courses-are-great-value-for-money/

Cheers 🍻

Wrighty67 · Nov 15, 2022

Hey @LDM7 - as promised I have some footage for review!This was a handicap match from a local tournament that I played last night - best of 3 sets to 21. I am a +2 handicap and my opponents ranged from +14 to +10 so a serious amount of work to do in order to draw level, which requires a real focus to build points and not take too many risks but without becoming a defensive bore...I am posting 2 matches here - I won both. I was fairly happy with my BH, being more offensive and winning me more points, but I was again really disappointed with my footwork, in particular around my FH topspin - ugly..I liked the way it forced me to focus on what my coach calls my "middle game" where consistency and percentage become the focus as opposed to nailing every shot.Here you go;

NextLevel · Nov 15, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Hey @LDM7 - as promised I have some footage for review!This was a handicap match from a local tournament that I played last night - best of 3 sets to 21. I am a +2 handicap and my opponents ranged from +14 to +10 so a serious amount of work to do in order to draw level, which requires a real focus to build points and not take too many risks but without becoming a defensive bore...I am posting 2 matches here - I won both. I was fairly happy with my BH, being more offensive and winning me more points, but I was again really disappointed with my footwork, in particular around my FH topspin - ugly..I liked the way it forced me to focus on what my coach calls my "middle game" where consistency and percentage become the focus as opposed to nailing every shot.Here you go;

Looking good, Wrighty67 (Peter). Things are better, everything could be better, but you are headed in the right direction. Hope you are enjoying the game!

Der_Echte · Nov 15, 2022

Your placement is improving.

How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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