How Did I Win or Lose a Match?

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Hi LDM7,

When I discussed your opponents receive of your short serve to his FH, ie he generally pushes. So you then know that you are going to get a push return.

Your 3rd ball play is going to be vs backspin, so you have 2 basic options, push the 3rd ball, open-up v backspin (depending how long his push is, then dictates whether its a flick or top spin v backspin open up.)

1) If you decide to push, then really get to grips with your own push as per Der's recommendations. Practice your basic push BH and FH, once mastered, you can then look at the push variations, attacking fast push, spin variation imparted = light/no spin, medium spin, high spin, perhaps some side spin (which you appear to do at present, as you cut across the ball slightly, so when practicing see if you can push with no side spin added.)

2) if you decide to flick or open up top spin vs back spin, then this will have to be drilled in as well.

Perhaps concentrate on pushing firstly, then move onto flicks and open ups vs backspin, you can combine both if you want but prioritise one over the other, say 75% practice pushes, 25% flicks, that sort of thing!!

Knowing that a likely return is going to be a push is good, knowing WHERE it will be pushed to 80% of the time is even better!!!😁😎

How can you do this? choice of serve and spin on the ball for certain serves increase the likelihood of a 'predictable' return, hopefully having watched MH's video you'll see the light!!!!
 
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Checkout MHTableTennis on YouTube, He does some great serve tutorials, one of which is “The most Effective Serve in Table Tennis” this will shed light on ‘predictability’ and how or what a ‘good’ serve actually is!!!

=> i found the vid, will watch soon

=> i am learning "predictability" puts me a smidget ahead, increasing the probability of winning that point

=> good looking out IB66
 

Morning IB,

Mate, all i can say is thank you for helping me improve!

clearly you put in the time & thoughts, showing me a process ...

i particularly like the way you break things down, step-by-step, easy read & i understood it (albeit i had to read parts of it twice, sometimes 3 times ... ok, you can stop laughing now)

and would you believe me if i told you i see the crack of dawn?

I cannot wait to watch MHTT vid during my lunch break, late

 
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@Littledragonman7 recently discovered that he can be much better in leverage/position if he loops vs underspin impacting the ball with a foot of the table. He also discovered he could heavy spin a dead, barely half long ball if he lets it drop a little. He is also prolly still hating on me that I gave him some double bounce balls where on one hit the table and got a stinger.

A lot of the things, actually everything will take time to develop, grow, and transform into strengths in matches. LDM7 REALLY wants it and wants it to work RIGHT NOW, but it is a long effort. He will develop.
 
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@Littledragonman7 recently discovered that he can be much better in leverage/position if he loops vs underspin impacting the ball with a foot of the table. He also discovered he could heavy spin a dead, barely half long ball if he lets it drop a little. He is also prolly still hating on me that I gave him some double bounce balls where on one hit the table and got a stinger.

A lot of the things, actually everything will take time to develop, grow, and transform into strengths in matches. LDM7 REALLY wants it and wants it to work RIGHT NOW, but it is a long effort. He will develop.
Ha, I shouldn’t laugh about those 1/2 long balls, bat cracking knuckle crushing, nasty!!!🤕

An exercise I like doing when coaching is to prop the net up with your bat and then roll a ball along the table, with enough speed for it to drop about 3 to 4 inches (75 - 100mm) off the end of the table. Player then has to top spin and lift the ball over the net, good for getting them use to play those slow high spin top spin v backspin open ups and get accustomed to those 1/2 long balls.
First timers at this exercise give you some real funny looks!!!! & reach for the band aid plasters!!!!!!

 
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LDM7 said a lot of really bad things about IB66 tonite.... NOT. I perceive LDM7 is appreciative of his and others' support. Thanks for making me look good or at least not the villain. I highly recommended LDM7 post on TTD and talk/ask/contribute.

Too much stuff we went over on and off in the hours we had tonite to articulate in this space, maybe LDM7 say a few things. He is basically discovering there is a LOT of stuff going on and it need attention. This is true for higher level players as they get higher, they discover how insufficient they are and need even more improvement.

Spent a lot of time pushing short, pushing deep, opening vs push on 3rd ball, finishing 5th ball. That is meat and potatoes of attack success at his level, but as players adapt and get better, LDM7 will need to have already developed and deployed new skills. This is the evolution and metal warfare conducted.

One nugget I show players is that (usually after a ball to wide FH) when you are caught not able to get to a ball on BH wing to attack it strongly is to take a step or cross step to the ball, reach and get bat to ball and control rebound with the grip (firming or loosening) These are the balls, if attacked with any kind of swing will be pretty much a zero percent play... but since player is getting ball on table, there is time to recover and regain upper hand next ball or two, sometimes you win directly, either ball had weird bounce and opponent attacked too strongly, or opponent gave it back weak and you attack it.

LDM7 pretty quickly made progress when faced with such a ball (eg, I gave him a ball to his wide FH, he took huge step to get there and attacked, I soft blocked it to BH line. There is zero chance to get there, set and strike... so it is practical to step, reach to ball with bat, and control it with grip. Sometimes, you can use a TINY lower arm or wrist with firming of grip to add power to a nothing ball.

Sometimes, when I gave LDM7 that sequence, he did not piss away the point right away and could stay in the point another ball or two and have a reasonable chance to stay even or get upper hand in rally. In doubles, he saw me do that a LOT, maybe 2 times a game or more. I was able to keep balls in play and give us a chance.

We went over how close to get to the serve to do what to it (short bump return or deep push) and LDM7 showed that he already has the ability to step to the ball, get bat there, and control the rebound with grip... he just isn't doing it the majority of the time... but who does when they are starting out? I also wish that on deep pushes where LDM7 has to get down and up, that he would do so as the ball drops and rises, but that is also difficult to get to a high level of consistency right away.

LDM7 is discovering that TT is not a technically easy sport to learn., but there is practically no end to the amount of improvement one can have if they start as adults. I think that motivates him a lot.
 
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In another thread DNA Dragon Grip, I mentioned that I had about an hour of decent play time with the other coach because expected players for the session didn’t show.
The other coach - mentioned that we should video me looping because there’s ‘the Good, the Bad and the Ugly’ going on!!!
when I pushed him on the subject he replied
“well the good is good!! How I want to see you loop, which you do 50% of the time”
“the bad is bad, changes to swing motion etc not desirable. Poor position etc etc“
and the Ugly I asked??
He replied ”well you ain’t no Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt are you!!! “
Cheeky bugger!!!

I thought he was going to say that sometimes when under pressure, like the scenario you worked on wide FH to wide BH, it doesn’t have to look pretty but it still has to be controlled so you stay in the point.

So we concentrated on getting the loop grooved more, if I was out of position not to try and play a full loop or try and attack hard, just get the ball into play, Reset and get the loop rally going again if possible.
 
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Another thing I always emphasize is spin production... along with that is the mentality to spin heavier and slower, unless a finishing shot is there for a loop drive.

I try to make cool sounding slogans... like SPIN TO WIN... SPIN FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATER... or SPIN WINS. Being able to make heavier spin gives you a lot of control and safety. It allows you to aim deeper and land it. VERY Heavy spin, slow balls that land very shallow or deep or in the opponent's middle. When I see LDM7 live vs Sharon, a close to the table young lady who loves to pound drive after drive with courage at you... when I see LDM7 make the 1st topspin slow and heavy, Sharon would counter attack and hit it out a mile, or freeze up and block it out a mile.

When I see LDM7 try for a heavy spin slow shot, but leave it up a little and if the shot is NOT heavy, both players casually pound that ball for a winner with a smoke trail behind it.

These are some of the reasons why I emphasize spin and that would always bring a smile to the face of Next Level. Both of us would argue that being able to produce spin early in one's development would make some other offensive TT come to you easier.
 
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LDM7 said a lot of really bad things about IB66 tonite.... NOT
=> i did say Der is a trouble maker ... YES
=> let's try that exercise IB66 described sometime, eh?


I highly recommended LDM7 post on TTD and talk/ask/contribute
=> being self-employed with a 92 yr old mum & wish to stay married, i am finding my limited time on TTD profitable with encouragement & motivates me to study this TT game

He is basically discovering there is a LOT of stuff going on and it need attention
=> dude, you have no idea how many areas i see i need to improve
=> the good part about being young in this game is every aspect of my game can be developed and get better
=> the bad part about being young in this game is every aspect of my game needs improvement in order to get better


Spent a lot of time pushing short, pushing deep, opening vs push on 3rd ball, finishing 5th ball
=> tks Der for working with me on these meat & potato part of my game fri nite; i had a blast
=> i can't wait to show you my improvements SOON
=> QUESTION: why is it after just about EVERY BALL, in or out, good or bad, you made comments to what i did?


LDM7 is discovering that TT is not a technically easy sport to learn
=> i've always thought it was fun to hit that white ball back & forth on the table; i had no idea how technical TT is, WOW
=> and as i get better, i have more fun i love this game!


THINGS I WANT TO WORK ON:
=> everything BH i.e. BH return of serves, BH push, BH drop, BH flip, BH block, BH slow, spinny loop, BH loop drive ...

 

LDM7 said a lot of really bad things about IB66 tonite.... NOT
=> i did say Der is a trouble maker ... YES
=> let's try that exercise IB66 described sometime, eh?


I highly recommended LDM7 post on TTD and talk/ask/contribute
=> being self-employed with a 92 yr old mum & wish to stay married, i am finding my limited time on TTD profitable with encouragement & motivates me to study this TT game

He is basically discovering there is a LOT of stuff going on and it need attention
=> dude, you have no idea how many areas i see i need to improve
=> the good part about being young in this game is every aspect of my game can be developed and get better
=> the bad part about being young in this game is every aspect of my game needs improvement in order to get better


Spent a lot of time pushing short, pushing deep, opening vs push on 3rd ball, finishing 5th ball
=> tks Der for working with me on these meat & potato part of my game fri nite; i had a blast
=> i can't wait to show you my improvements SOON
=> QUESTION: why is it after just about EVERY BALL, in or out, good or bad, you made comments to what i did?


LDM7 is discovering that TT is not a technically easy sport to learn
=> i've always thought it was fun to hit that white ball back & forth on the table; i had no idea how technical TT is, WOW
=> and as i get better, i have more fun i love this game!


THINGS I WANT TO WORK ON:
=> everything BH i.e. BH return of serves, BH push, BH drop, BH flip, BH block, BH slow, spinny loop, BH loop drive ...

 
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LDM7 said:
QUESTION: why is it after just about EVERY BALL, in or out, good or bad, you made comments to what i did?

It is my strong opinion, that early on, the player should immediately get feedback on what was right or wrong... something simple like crouch more, swung too early, WAIT, or on time good whip, etc.

Later, the player gets to a state where they immediately know what happened and do not need anyone to tell them what happened.
 
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Covered a whole pile of stuff again Monday PM at the Russian Church... too much to discuss it all. Some of the stuff we are overlapping and we are over time looking for signs of improved consistency and quality.

LDM7 obviously enjoys TT immensely and wants to improve as much as he can as long as he can. The good news is the learning and adjusting literally NEVER stops, so he will not be limited there - plenty of stuff there for the grabbing.

LDM7 knows he is prone to hitting first over spinning... it is a matter of habit and adjustment that will take time... and with time we should look for signs of him relaxing and spinning more often to where it becomes a first response if the ball is there... but that is also balanced by the reality of what ball is coming in and how the opponent is setup, not the best choice to spin every damn ball heavy, sometimes a hit or power shot is there and it should be chosen and used.

LDM7 is seeing more and more the importance is seeing the ball rom impact and subconsciously knowing where it is going with what and when... and moving to the impact point and setting the strike zone with leverage and balance.

LDM7 did some slow close to table cross step (for those balls that go short off side of table and you have to go around the table) and first day was moving and landing right foot keeping weight of body inside right foot to avoid taking extra steps after the shot. He did this a few times in practice rallies, in doubles other team made me do that for a low rolling shot. I got too wore out at the end of close matches (had 1.5 hrs sleep)

LDM7 showed discipline in not going for broke (a near zero percent chance to land ball with strong shot way out of strikezone/balance) in those situations where he was moved to wide FH for a shot and ball comes back to BH... no time to move plant strike, so he extended arm with a giant left foot step to meet the ball and control it with his grip. He is avoiding giving away points in this situation. A SUPRISINGLY high number of players are prone to make a very low percentage attempt on this kind of ball and LDM7 is seeing results immediately. Sometimes the surprise gets him an error, often, it simply gets him back in the point... where the opponent might make next shot and win, or LDM7 stays in point and gets even or upper hand again. This adds up over the course of a game/match. This habit will later spread the good discipline and judgement into other areas of his TT game. He is seeing how to better assess risk and stack odds better in his favor.

At his level (and mine too) good risk management goes a long way. It is easier to make opponent play bad (entice poor shot selection/risk) than it is for you to play great.
 
LDM7,

A few technical skill areas to work on (that are costing you more than 1/2 of your points right now) are serve receive and underspin cut (push in USA Eng).

Technical works with tactical decisions so much as and within one's technical level. Pushing to the middle is not so good if the push isn't too good.

Here are some Eng sub vids where Samsung Life head coach Lee is training up a few amateur players in a series to get them a few levels up.

First is on serve receive, second is on the underspin shot.

A few technical skill areas to work on (that are costing you more than 1/2 of your points right now) are serve receive and underspin cut (push in USA Eng).
=> i concur
=> sometimes i piss away two service returns in a row, two easy, quick points to the opponent, no bueno
=> recent multi-ball service return sessions is helping

the korean vid's are not cc readable, even at 1/4 speed, much of the cc are blocked by other prints ... i lost patience

However, i do realize push service return or during rally is staying in a point and sometimes with good location, spin, speed ... can setup an easy ball to put away

 
Covered a whole pile of stuff again Monday PM at the Russian Church... too much to discuss it all. Some of the stuff we are overlapping and we are over time looking for signs of improved consistency and quality.

Thanks Der for another motivation, productive session Monday night 👍

Below are technical points I am wearing on my forehead:

* open (3rd/4th ball, serve return) with quality i.e. spin, location, speed, pace (?)

* on a higher ball, perhaps setup by a spinning loop, make sure to step forward closer to the "money trail" with racket at ball height, make contact with firmer grip & a compact, small stroke

* I am learning a soft, relaxed grip eats incoming junk & spin

* I am developing a new appreciation for "Spin Wins" and as Next Level says, for now, initially - loop for rotation, not speed

* I am not yet comfortable looping long deep, faster balls; i feel there's less time to measure up & get ready, so i get intimidated & back away or lean backwards NO BUENO sometimes woof the ball completely

* I am learning about & actively seeking situations to not pissing points away (risk mgmt is too fancy of a word for me)

* I am looking for situations to use heavy topspin as a setup for a higher % put away

* I want to practice "holding my table" instead of backing up & block (more defensive)

* Neeeeeeed more practice on BH spinny looping a backspin ball e.g. from a return of serve or 4th ball when server declined, pushing back to my BH

* Counter-looping was fun, not very good at it yet ... with practice, i will 💪

 
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Basically, LDM7 is showing he really enjoyed training, even if it exposed some more of what he needs to do, but is a good thing anyway. If TT isn't FUN (I call it causing trouble) then no one would stay with it - there would be no reason or purpose.

For the benefit of the forum members, when we refer to follow the money trail, (a failed attempt at a cool sounding catch-phrase) I mean that when the player is positioned at the table (like say in doubles or maybe in singles after serve) and the ball goes wide (usually to the wide FH) I mean that the player should track the ball and stay close to the table... NOT drift backwards.

WHY? When you are further back you have fewer angles to pressure opponent or get one by him/her. When you flat hit or fast drive a ball that far back (1+ meters) you have less vertical space to work with and more gravity forces fighting against you to make your shot at a certain point a sure miss or less than 50/50. Those are not good odds. You you step to the ball and are closer to table and you strike the ball, you can transfer good energy at a high level and still have good control and biomechanics and still strike the ball on time.

THAT is why I say follow the money trail when you at the table and need to move wide to pounce on a ball.

I am not yet comfortable looping long deep, faster balls; i feel there's less time to measure up & get ready, so i get intimidated & back away or lean backwards NO BUENO sometimes woof the ball completely

So many players do this, even many 2000+ players get jammed at the table by a fast push and freek out. The way to handle it is to go down (bend knees and get waist down some) and explode up when ball bounces near endline... and use a SHORT explosive stroke with mostly lower arm and only a little wrist...impact ball anywhere from a few inches on net side of endline or several inches behind endline - explode up and forward and adjust for the ball. Stay relaxed and compact - you will handle it in a slpit.
 
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Yeah, lateral movement within your striking zone, rather than stepping further back out of the striking zone.
Such a natural thing to do - stepping back to give yourself more time, can be difficult to overcome when you are not consciously thinking about it!!
We place a barrier behind a player if they continually drift back during routines, then they gotta move laterally and stay in the strike zone, unless they fancy an arse over tit trip to the floor!!!
 
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LDM7 got to see a LOT of things to go over, so many every time, but the one thing outstanding LDM7 got was the IMPORTANCE of seeing the ball, seeing where/when/how it is gunna go with what on it... figuring out the impact point, GETTING THERE READY on balance to set the strike zone. Thi affects EVERYTHING. I emphasized that developing this skill and the footwork are KEY early on and should be a point of focus over pure ball striking. That will follow almost automatically (well, let's just say easier) after the ball reading and movement/balance are good.

Sometimes, that meant taking a step forward (on a ball that would be at his toes if he did not move) or just squatting down and letting the ball come to the strike zone and pull the trigger on the shot.

He saw me play a match vs a dude I had issues reading serves and saw that spin is one of my best friends, but it is also open season on crushing the ball if it is there too. Sometimes just wait, sometimes a giant quick step to the impact point and time it.

Maybe a close second was the importance of NOT taking a huge backswing for a long stroke... that a strong ball can be played with a relative short stroke... with higher percentage.
 
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LDM7 got another blade and decked it with some softer rubbers... he immediately could BH to BH topspin close to table. He is improving his trendline in BH opening topspin slow heavy close to table... long way to go, but improvement is obvious growing. He is improving in the BH open - FH finish combo. his FH from middle FH from corner back and forth improving... very taxing, he is building conditioning.

LDM7 immediately is seeing the importance of developing the fundamental things that contribute to shot success (read the ball, move efficiently, get to point of impact on time to set the strike zone, be on balance and leveraged)... he is not worrying too much whether the shot was great, but whether he could get there and be ready, he gunna get good successful growing that way.

He is getting it more and more about grip pressure and contact points... how to adjust to a ball... every ball is not perfect - he has to move and adjust if he is not 100 percent there or adjust based on ball bounce and spin/speed/angle.

He is making block combinations close to the table.

There is so much going on at the same time and hard to focus on everything, but important to know what contributes to shot success and develop those... the rest follows faster and more strong that way. It isn't the only way, but it makes sense.
 
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