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    #1

    Viscaria / Harimoto thoughts..

    HI all

    I wanted to share some thoughts and gather any other views on these two blades, from those that may have played with both.

    I currently play with the Viscaria as my main blade and like it very much but have also been toying with the Harimoto, which in theory might suit my level better.

    My observations around what I have experience are;

    Viscaria - harder outer ply, ALC nearer surface of blade so a crisper and more linear feel - I also expected it to feel faster but not sure it really does.

    Harimoto - softer outer ply giving more dwell and control. Inner ALC offering more soft touch in short game and higher speed only when engaged.

    I like the handle and feel of both blades equally - both very comfortable, although the balance feels different with the Harimoto feeling slightly head heavier to me.

    I am interested in others experience of the speed and feel of these two - in theory I would have thought the Harimoto was the easier to play with and more suited to an intermediate player than the Viscaria, but in reality I am not sure this is the case for me as the linearity and crispness of the Viscaria feel a little more controlled.

    Let me know your thoughts and experiences.

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    #2
    I think I've mentioned on a thread you have posted on before but I personally didn't get on with the Harimoto. Like you, from reviews and especially the way Dan and Tom spoke about it in their video, it should be a go to blade for developing intermediate player who's training and playing regularly. And i gave it a good amount of time - but after the honeymoon period of a new blade, i just wasn't getting that connection with it that "yeah - this is the blade".

    I think it does feel head heavy (some people like that) mine overall was really heavy compared to other bats I have. I really didn't get the dwell that is spoken about and even through I don't have one, like the feel of the Viscaria more (similar to the TB Spirit I use). Equally it may just have been not a great example of the blade.

    It might be more to do with me not really liking the inner carbon style of the Harimoto - not that I have played with other examples. The way I see it the Viscaria is a classic for a reason and used by lots of people of different levels - I played a team the other day and all three players had a Viscaria and had slightly different playing styles, will the Harimoto stand the test of time as much? I don't know many people who are using it - is it that popular? Not that should be the reason to use it or not - but is a useful gauge as to how useable it is.

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    Last edited by jammmail; 07-05-2022 at 12:29 PM.

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by jammmail
    I think I've mentioned on a thread you have posted on before but I personally didn't get on with the Harimoto. Like you, from reviews and especially the way Dan and Tom spoke about it in their video, it should be a go to blade for developing intermediate player who's training and playing regularly. And i gave it a good amount of time - but after the honeymoon period of a new blade, i just wasn't getting that connection with it that "yeah - this is the blade".

    I think it does feel head heavy (some people like that) mine overall was really heavy compared to other bats I have. I really didn't get the dwell that is spoken about and even through I don't have one, like the feel of the Viscaria more (similar to the TB Spirit I use). Equally it may just have been not a great example of the blade.

    It might be more to do with me not really liking the inner carbon style of the Harimoto - not that I have played with other examples. The way I see it the Viscaria is a classic for a reason and used by lots of people of different levels - I played a team the other day and all three players had a Viscaria and had slightly different playing styles, will the Harimoto stand the test of time as much? I don't know many people who are using it - is it that popular? Not that should be the reason to use it or not - but is a useful gauge as to how useable it is.

    That's very interesting - almost exactly what my experience has been. I love the look and feel in the hand but when I play it didn't feel as good as I had hoped.

    I had a similar experience with the other inner blade I have used - Ma Long HL5x, which was faster than the Harimoto but also a little disconnected. I very much like the direct and crisp response that the Viscaria offers.


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    #4

    I've used a Viscaria, and played with a TB ALC (the same blade to all intents and purposes according to Butterfly).

    I've also played with the Harimoto for a season.

    I think I've documented my feelings over numerous threads in the past, but will try and summarise a little here.

    Both are pretty advanced attacking blades - The Viscaria might be popular with recreational players, but it is popular at their detriment if you ask me.

    It's too quick, and lacks the control that *most* players need.

    Now, if you are using the Viscaria happily, I'll ask..... WHY do you want to change?

    Is there a part of your game you are looking to improve? Or something you feel the Viscaria isn't optimal at?

    Or do you simply want a new blade because you like the player or blade design?

    If I'm being completely truthful, that last point is often a big driving force in my decisions. But I kid myself in thinking it's other factors.....

    The Harimoto is a fantastic blade. It blocks like a wall, has plenty of top end speed, and was genuinely a joy to use.

    But the heavier head can be a drawback if your technique isn't great, and the blocking ability can potentially lead to you becoming a bit passive if you don't force yourself to attack.

    But when it's all said and done, the overall playing characteristics are too similar to really be able to recommend it as an improvement over the Viscaria - Even if the spec sheet says they are worlds apart.

    Note - My "reasons" for switching from the Tibhar VS Unilimited (TB ALC Clone) to the Harimoto was:

    • More control
    • Slower
    • I felt it would give me more time to be aggressive
    • Better blocks
    • Better counter loops




    • The blade looks bloody awesome - But don't tell anyone!

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I've used a Viscaria, and played with a TB ALC (the same blade to all intents and purposes according to Butterfly).

    I've also played with the Harimoto for a season.

    I think I've documented my feelings over numerous threads in the past, but will try and summarise a little here.

    Both are pretty advanced attacking blades - The Viscaria might be popular with recreational players, but it is popular at their detriment if you ask me.

    It's too quick, and lacks the control that *most* players need.

    Now, if you are using the Viscaria happily, I'll ask..... WHY do you want to change?

    Is there a part of your game you are looking to improve? Or something you feel the Viscaria isn't optimal at?

    Or do you simply want a new blade because you like the player or blade design?

    If I'm being completely truthful, that last point is often a big driving force in my decisions. But I kid myself in thinking it's other factors.....

    The Harimoto is a fantastic blade. It blocks like a wall, has plenty of top end speed, and was genuinely a joy to use.

    But the heavier head can be a drawback if your technique isn't great, and the blocking ability can potentially lead to you becoming a bit passive if you don't force yourself to attack.

    But when it's all said and done, the overall playing characteristics are too similar to really be able to recommend it as an improvement over the Viscaria - Even if the spec sheet says they are worlds apart.

    Note - My "reasons" for switching from the Tibhar VS Unilimited (TB ALC Clone) to the Harimoto was:

    • More control
    • Slower
    • I felt it would give me more time to be aggressive
    • Better blocks
    • Better counter loops




    • The blade looks bloody awesome - But don't tell anyone!

    Hi NDH

    Thanks for the reply.

    Truth be told I don't feel a need to change from the Viscaria as I play well with it and it doesnt appear any faster than the Harimoto. I just felt it was interesting how all the "on paper" factors that would position the Harimoto as the ideal blade for me didn't pan out that way.

    I have 2 Viscarias of a similar weight (90g) and my thoughts now are to stay put with them and spend the next 3 months bedding them in further before my league season starts.

    The Harimoto is a very nice looking piece of art..


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    #6
    Yep part of the reason I got the Harimoto was looks - which is great, and that it was meant to be slower. The difference is that minimal that i went back to my TBS as ive used it much longer and know it better

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by jammmail
    I think I've mentioned on a thread you have posted on before but I personally didn't get on with the Harimoto. Like you, from reviews and especially the way Dan and Tom spoke about it in their video, it should be a go to blade for developing intermediate player who's training and playing regularly. And i gave it a good amount of time - but after the honeymoon period of a new blade, i just wasn't getting that connection with it that "yeah - this is the blade".I think it does feel head heavy (some people like that) mine overall was really heavy compared to other bats I have. I really didn't get the dwell that is spoken about and even through I don't have one, like the feel of the Viscaria more (similar to the TB Spirit I use). Equally it may just have been not a great example of the blade.It might be more to do with me not really liking the inner carbon style of the Harimoto - not that I have played with other examples. The way I see it the Viscaria is a classic for a reason and used by lots of people of different levels - I played a team the other day and all three players had a Viscaria and had slightly different playing styles, will the Harimoto stand the test of time as much? I don't know many people who are using it - is it that popular? Not that should be the reason to use it or not - but is a useful gauge as to how useable it is.
    I've seen some or even more players reporting that their harimoto's really heavy sometimes being 94g or so. It has outstanding control, bread and butter in blocking. But they've been lamenting that it's too slow blade some would even rate it as low offensive blade. Is it true? in terms of speed how different is it from other outer alc blades like viscaria, tb alc etc. I'm also an intermediate player and I've never used harimoto's blade myself. Would like to see your thoughts.
    Last edited by Colin Ksh; 07-05-2022 at 04:44 PM.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Ksh
    I've seen some or even more players reporting that their harimoto's really heavy sometimes being 94g or so. It has outstanding control, bread and butter in blocking. But they've been lamenting that it's too slow blade some would even rate it as low offensive blade. Is it true? in terms of speed how different is it from other outer alc blades like viscaria, tb alc etc. I'm also an intermediate player and I've never used harimoto's blade myself. Would like to see your thoughts.

    To me the speed is fairly similar to Viscaria but the feel is very different and much less crisp

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    To me the speed is fairly similar to Viscaria but the feel is very different and much less crisp

    Much more of a woody feeling is it

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    #10
    I didn't really get the woody feel some have, I think on the scale its closer in feeling to an out ALC than a wood blade, but what we are talking about are very small margins. @NDH is a better player than me so his feedback will be far more precise!

    For me the speed difference was very small and I actually didn't find it easier to control as its less linear. Some counter-loops went long - i think because the difference in the carbon kicking in on heavier shots than slower speed ones. The weight also, i have a bigish swing so with the extra weight it's going to have more power behind it. I do agree though blocking is great with it. But as @NDH mentioned - I became a bit passive with it and felt I had switched to mainly blocking on my backhand with it.

    I think the weight is key - if you don't mind heavier blades you may like it more than me, or select a more normally weighted one.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67
    HI allI wanted to share some thoughts and gather any other views on these two blades, from those that may have played with both.I currently play with the Viscaria as my main blade and like it very much but have also been toying with the Harimoto, which in theory might suit my level better.My observations around what I have experience are;Viscaria - harder outer ply, ALC nearer surface of blade so a crisper and more linear feel - I also expected it to feel faster but not sure it really does.Harimoto - softer outer ply giving more dwell and control. Inner ALC offering more soft touch in short game and higher speed only when engaged.I like the handle and feel of both blades equally - both very comfortable, although the balance feels different with the Harimoto feeling slightly head heavier to me.I am interested in others experience of the speed and feel of these two - in theory I would have thought the Harimoto was the easier to play with and more suited to an intermediate player than the Viscaria, but in reality I am not sure this is the case for me as the linearity and crispness of the Viscaria feel a little more controlled.Let me know your thoughts and experiences.
    I feel exactly the same.

    I have played with Harimoto ALC for about two months. The forehand rubber is Tibhar MX-P and the backhand Victas VJ07 stiff. This really looks like a go-to combination for any intermediate player. Unfortunately, though, I still didn't get the hang of it. In fact, the experience was so awful that I decided to post it on an online second-hand transaction website. 🤣

    Unlike what I heard from many other people, I feel that the blade, unlike many other inner blades, is too bouncy and therefore lacking in control and blocking. I also find it very difficult to perform high-quality flicks for service return. Speed is not outstanding, but still decent. I think the key to using this blade is to play close to mid-distance and to find a perfect balance between using your own strength and countering. This isn't the blade for those who take the game by powerful and spinny attacks.

    I believe the real go-to blade for intermediate players is the Viscaria. It is compatible with a wide spectrum of rubbers. It has excellent control, attacks like a beast, and blocks like a wall. Three in four of my friends who play TT would have at least one Viscaria at hand, one of the reasons that I do not personally own a Viscaria but can still toy with it pretty often.

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    #12
    I think one thing we should all consider is a blade+rubber combination might feel really good while training, but feel awful in match play, I've been testing a few rubbers recently and it reminded me why I eventually gave up on using the harimoto alc blades: they felt great in all sorts of training exercises, but I just can't get the same feeling during matches. The same goes for the Andro c53 rubbers, felt really great in training, not so much in matches, I'm just too used the feel of Hurricane 3 rubbers it's hard for me to control c53 to the same level.

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    #13
    Totally agree @Emberwhirl and @DukeGaGa

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DukeGaGa
    I think one thing we should all consider is a blade+rubber combination might feel really good while training, but feel awful in match play, I've been testing a few rubbers recently and it reminded me why I eventually gave up on using the harimoto alc blades: they felt great in all sorts of training exercises, but I just can't get the same feeling during matches. The same goes for the Andro c53 rubbers, felt really great in training, not so much in matches, I'm just too used the feel of Hurricane 3 rubbers it's hard for me to control c53 to the same level.

    Yep, this is very true - so often I love a set up vs my robot or FH/FH training, only to find it unplayable in match play. I do however think that’s also down to tightening up and not playing relaxed or if I’m tired and slightly off the pace.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    Yep, this is very true - so often I love a set up vs my robot or FH/FH training, only to find it unplayable in match play. I do however think that’s also down to tightening up and not playing relaxed or if I’m tired and slightly off the pace.

    I don’t have a problem relaxing my muscles, I do however have a problem of being impatient 😂 now I just say “slow down” to myself over and over during a match.

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I've used a Viscaria, and played with a TB ALC (the same blade to all intents and purposes according to Butterfly).

    I've also played with the Harimoto for a season.

    I think I've documented my feelings over numerous threads in the past, but will try and summarise a little here.

    Both are pretty advanced attacking blades - The Viscaria might be popular with recreational players, but it is popular at their detriment if you ask me.

    It's too quick, and lacks the control that *most* players need.

    Now, if you are using the Viscaria happily, I'll ask..... WHY do you want to change?

    Is there a part of your game you are looking to improve? Or something you feel the Viscaria isn't optimal at?

    Or do you simply want a new blade because you like the player or blade design?

    If I'm being completely truthful, that last point is often a big driving force in my decisions. But I kid myself in thinking it's other factors.....

    The Harimoto is a fantastic blade. It blocks like a wall, has plenty of top end speed, and was genuinely a joy to use.

    But the heavier head can be a drawback if your technique isn't great, and the blocking ability can potentially lead to you becoming a bit passive if you don't force yourself to attack.

    But when it's all said and done, the overall playing characteristics are too similar to really be able to recommend it as an improvement over the Viscaria - Even if the spec sheet says they are worlds apart.

    Note - My "reasons" for switching from the Tibhar VS Unilimited (TB ALC Clone) to the Harimoto was:

    • More control
    • Slower
    • I felt it would give me more time to be aggressive
    • Better blocks
    • Better counter loops




    • The blade looks bloody awesome - But don't tell anyone!

    Hi ND
    can you tell me how the Octcharov alc blade compares and what you like about it compared to the Harimoto?


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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67

    Hi ND
    can you tell me how the Octcharov alc blade compares and what you like about it compared to the Harimoto?

    So, this is a hard comparison because I went from using the softy, spongy Tenergy 05 on the Harimoto (and then TB ALC), to using Dignics 09C and 05 on the DO ALC.

    I remember my very first reaction (expecting something a little like the Harimoto ALC), but it was virtually identical to the TB ALC from a “crispness” POV.

    It felt much harder than I was expecting, but that could very very easily be the Dignics playing a big part.

    The Harimoto felt closer to a wood blade at lower speeds - It was a softer, subdued feeling.

    The Ovtcharov felt just like a typical outer carbon blade to me.

    Perhaps a teeny tiny bit less “carbony/crisp” feeling, but much closer to an outer carbon blade than to a wooden blade.

    Of course, if I was trying to justify buying a new blade (which is an annual occurrence), I’d tell myself it was the perfect drop in speed over the TB ALC, much more control, and a unique, new handle design! 😃

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I've used a Viscaria, and played with a TB ALC (the same blade to all intents and purposes according to Butterfly).

    I've also played with the Harimoto for a season.

    I think I've documented my feelings over numerous threads in the past, but will try and summarise a little here.

    Both are pretty advanced attacking blades - The Viscaria might be popular with recreational players, but it is popular at their detriment if you ask me.

    It's too quick, and lacks the control that *most* players need.

    Now, if you are using the Viscaria happily, I'll ask..... WHY do you want to change?

    Is there a part of your game you are looking to improve? Or something you feel the Viscaria isn't optimal at?

    Or do you simply want a new blade because you like the player or blade design?

    If I'm being completely truthful, that last point is often a big driving force in my decisions. But I kid myself in thinking it's other factors.....

    The Harimoto is a fantastic blade. It blocks like a wall, has plenty of top end speed, and was genuinely a joy to use.

    But the heavier head can be a drawback if your technique isn't great, and the blocking ability can potentially lead to you becoming a bit passive if you don't force yourself to attack.

    But when it's all said and done, the overall playing characteristics are too similar to really be able to recommend it as an improvement over the Viscaria - Even if the spec sheet says they are worlds apart.

    Note - My "reasons" for switching from the Tibhar VS Unilimited (TB ALC Clone) to the Harimoto was:

    • More control
    • Slower
    • I felt it would give me more time to be aggressive
    • Better blocks
    • Better counter loops




    • The blade looks bloody awesome - But don't tell anyone!

    Do you have any tips for adjusting to the ST handle. I have moved to ST handle few years ago, and I really love it when I hold it in my hand. But when I play, it seems to be slipping out or at least I get this impression. I tried resolving this problem by using grip tape. But grip tape creates friction in my palm and that make the blade uncomfortable to hold for a longer duration in the rally.

    Most of the times practice, patience and an observant mind answers all your questions

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by KM1976

    Do you have any tips for adjusting to the ST handle. I have moved to ST handle few years ago, and I really love it when I hold it in my hand. But when I play, it seems to be slipping out or at least I get this impression. I tried resolving this problem by using grip tape. But grip tape creates friction in my palm and that make the blade uncomfortable to hold for a longer duration in the rally.

    I've never used anything on my handles.

    1. I like the look of them too much.

    2. Nothing beats the feel of wood in your hands.......... I'll just leave that here......

    3. If I had a preference, I think I would go with the "Square/Straight" handle of something like the TB ALC.

    Although the spec sheet says it's a tiny bit smaller than the "Round/Straight" handles that BTY now do, I actually think it feels bigger in the hand.

    I've always been coached to hold the bat quite loose and low - Not crazy low, but not very choked up on the blade either.

    I've never had a problem with the bat slipping out - Maybe subconsciously my brain knows how much the blade and Dignics are worth, so my grip is tighter! 😂

    If you've come from using a flared blade, I'd give it some time.

    It might "feel" like it's coming lose, but after a while, you get used to it and you know it won't actually slip out.

    But I've always used a straight handle bat, so I'm very used to it!

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    So, this is a hard comparison because I went from using the softy, spongy Tenergy 05 on the Harimoto (and then TB ALC), to using Dignics 09C and 05 on the DO ALC.

    I remember my very first reaction (expecting something a little like the Harimoto ALC), but it was virtually identical to the TB ALC from a “crispness” POV.

    It felt much harder than I was expecting, but that could very very easily be the Dignics playing a big part.

    The Harimoto felt closer to a wood blade at lower speeds - It was a softer, subdued feeling.

    The Ovtcharov felt just like a typical outer carbon blade to me.

    Perhaps a teeny tiny bit less “carbony/crisp” feeling, but much closer to an outer carbon blade than to a wooden blade.

    Of course, if I was trying to justify buying a new blade (which is an annual occurrence), I’d tell myself it was the perfect drop in speed over the TB ALC, much more control, and a unique, new handle design! 😃

    Thanks - makes perfect sense, I guess the Ovtcharov is nearer my Viscaria - which works a treat with slower rubbers on (H3 etc) but, as I discovered when I got hammered in every match on Wednesday, not so well with D05 which just seemed to make the Viscaria into a bit of an untamed beast.

    So, suitably chastised, I have retreated with my tail between my legs to my all wood blades (until the next time :-)


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