Backhand flip advice

Wrighty67 · Jul 12, 2022

Hi all

For those of you that use this stroke regularly, I am interested in your approach.

The biggest challenge for me is choosing the right ball to attack with a flip - either serve return or shorter push to my BH.

In most of my matches I tend to face either a faster, longer serve which does not allow for a flip, or a shorter backspin or back & side serve which can be very difficult to flip if the ball stays low.

I often find myself determined to use the flip and then forcing it on the wrong ball and missing it.

So I am interested in;

1. How you choose which balls to flip and at what point you make the decision to flip and not push?
2. Tips on how to flip a backspin or back/side service
3. Do you use it to attack shorter balls in general even if not serves?

I love this shot but find it so hard to implement into my matches.

Thanks

Peter

mihalichtheone · Jul 12, 2022

I've found that it's so much easier to do BH flip with any ball with tacky rubber on the BH.
Just get to position correctly and just swing the wrist - the rubber will do the rest.
H3 / FastArc G1 (it's very grippy) / H8-80 all work very, very well.
I would assume that most modern hybrids will do well in this regard.
My experience with Tenergy 05, Xiom Vega Asia, Rakza 7 is that it's not impossible to do the flick, but just more difficult - you have to engage the sponge, hence you have to have perfect wrist swing.

Tony's Table Tennis · Jul 12, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Hi all For those of you that use this stroke regularly, I am interested in your approach. The biggest challenge for me is choosing the right ball to attack with a flip - either serve return or shorter push to my BH. In most of my matches I tend to face either a faster, longer serve which does not allow for a flip, or a shorter backspin or back & side serve which can be very difficult to flip if the ball stays low. I often find myself determined to use the flip and then forcing it on the wrong ball and missing it. So I am interested in; 1. How you choose which balls to flip and at what point you make the decision to flip and not push? 2. Tips on how to flip a backspin or back/side service 3. Do you use it to attack shorter balls in general even if not serves? I love this shot but find it so hard to implement into my matches. Thanks Peter

I think you need to train the BH flick so much that it can become natural. You don't choose, it just comes naturally. Of course with your ready position and coming into the table, you need to be close in, to be able to execute the bh flick. Unless it is a very very short ball, where you would need to push the ball back, if the ball is short to half long, in a way, you can bh flick (unless it is going off to the FH wide corner)

Wrighty67 · Jul 12, 2022

Tony's Table Tennis said:
I think you need to train the BH flick so much that it can become natural. You don't choose, it just comes naturally. Of course with your ready position and coming into the table, you need to be close in, to be able to execute the bh flick. Unless it is a very very short ball, where you would need to push the ball back, if the ball is short to half long, in a way, you can bh flick (unless it is going off to the FH wide corner)

Thanks - that's helpful.

I have a robot and have been using that to deliver a short ball with a little bounce which I then try to flick - any other advice as to how to cover it in practice?

latej · Jul 12, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Thanks - that's helpful.

I have a robot and have been using that to deliver a short ball with a little bounce which I then try to flick - any other advice as to how to cover it in practice?

I also try to train this on the robot. My thoughts so far:

1. Get really low, almost that you have the feeling you're eye level with the ball. As you say, there is little bounce, it helped me to get lower.

2. As soon as you get to the level where you just get the ball on the other side, which I think you already are, don't stop there, focus on trying to get max speed/spin, both the hand speed, bat speed and consequently ball speed/spin.

3. There are different techniques, and sometimes one is more appropriate than the other. E.g. sometimes you can see FZD having the wrist/hand/paddle already twisted, he waits for the ball, and then snaps/rotates it. If you have less time, you can't do much more. And sometimes you see LYU when he receives, his arm and wrist/paddle are not twisted yet, and as he goes forward with the arm, the wrist/paddle naturally, by the inertia, tends to stay back, and as the forearm gets more in front the wrist/paddle becames what I call twisted, and then he/you snaps. That is a little more advanced, elegant technique.

4. Yes, practise, practise, time, practise.

Lycanthrope · Jul 13, 2022

In my opinion, this question implies an advanced skill other than stroke. The advanced players always have an instant before their strokes that they are seeing the ball and adjusting their position, then they decide and make the stroke (the decision is made by instinct). But other players under that level usually presume what the stroke they want to use next before they can.

Gozo Aruna · Jul 13, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Hi all

For those of you that use this stroke regularly, I am interested in your approach.

The biggest challenge for me is choosing the right ball to attack with a flip - either serve return or shorter push to my BH.

In most of my matches I tend to face either a faster, longer serve which does not allow for a flip, or a shorter backspin or back & side serve which can be very difficult to flip if the ball stays low.

I often find myself determined to use the flip and then forcing it on the wrong ball and missing it.

So I am interested in;

1. How you choose which balls to flip and at what point you make the decision to flip and not push?
2. Tips on how to flip a backspin or back/side service
3. Do you use it to attack shorter balls in general even if not serves?

I love this shot but find it so hard to implement into my matches.

Thanks

Peter

I have this problem. If I ever successfully do a BH flick ( Chiquita ), I tend to freeze a little while admiring at my marvelous and fantastic technique whilst forgetting that my opponent can and will return the ball back to me. This brain freeze is costing me points. NB: I am not joking, for us amateurs, to be able to chiquita a BH serve is no joke. It is an Tik-Tok worthy moment each time.

So now I will push short or long and attack the next ball with my FH instead. I do no freeze when hitting with FH. Don't know why.

Der_Echte · Jul 13, 2022

Yes Gozo, you correctly stated your horror, but even more so, with these new generations of ABS ball, it is getting increasingly EASIER to counter-attack a flip... so much so that even some lower level players are getting good at this and killing you even moar. These new generations of ABS ball make you want to attack and counter even more than ever.

Der_Echte · Jul 13, 2022

Wrighty,

A newer player can literally on the same day see themselves in one session BH flipping short serves they never thought they could... with ease... a real safe banana flip using a squeeze of the hand light pressure. Allow ball to drop and impact 4-5 cm above table on the descent... why? that downward energy is counteracted with the upward swing of the banana when you graze size and go up... this is a very safe and conservative banana flip.

There is a timing to your step and hit. You see serve, determine it will be short to middle or BH, you WAIT for ball to get near net... then you step to the right (for a RH player) of where ball will bounce... step and squeeze... your tip will be downward some before your squeeze, you get your upper arm and elbow out there and you have leverage easily... you will be on time to hit at the right moment where ball is falling.

This does not produce a mega fast and uber spinny flip, but it is safe, easy to use, and consistent if you get the timing and impact plane right. Very easy to start doing those.

The problem is as you state, SEEING and REALIZING what is happening in terms of what is on ball, where it goes, when... as Tony says, that takes a lot of reps for the discernment of that to be natural. What can be natural though is for the short balls you DO read is that conservative banana impact not too far over table not too hard, just land it and land it in a tough spot for opponent.

I posted a vid some months back of Haruka, a popular youtube Japanese lady who speaks Korean and is in many vids, she demonstrated good and bad ways on this. The shot itself is easy, but realizing what is coming takes time and reps.

megimr1976@gmail.com · Jul 13, 2022

Der_Echte said:
Wrighty,

A newer player can literally on the same day see themselves in one session BH flipping short serves they never thought they could... with ease... a real safe banana flip using a squeeze of the hand light pressure. Allow ball to drop and impact 4-5 cm above table on the descent... why? that downward energy is counteracted with the upward swing of the banana when you graze size and go up... this is a very safe and conservative banana flip.

There is a timing to your step and hit. You see serve, determine it will be short to middle or BH, you WAIT for ball to get near net... then you step to the right (for a RH player) of where ball will bounce... step and squeeze... your tip will be downward some before your squeeze, you get your upper arm and elbow out there and you have leverage easily... you will be on time to hit at the right moment where ball is falling.

This does not produce a mega fast and uber spinny flip, but it is safe, easy to use, and consistent if you get the timing and impact plane right. Very easy to start doing those.

The problem is as you state, SEEING and REALIZING what is happening in terms of what is on ball, where it goes, when... as Tony says, that takes a lot of reps for the discernment of that to be natural. What can be natural though is for the short balls you DO read is that conservative banana impact not too far over table not too hard, just land it and land it in a tough spot for opponent.

I posted a vid some months back of Haruka, a popular youtube Japanese lady who speaks Korean and is in many vids, she demonstrated good and bad ways on this. The shot itself is easy, but realizing what is coming takes time and reps.

Good

Wrighty67 · Jul 13, 2022

Der_Echte said:
Wrighty,

A newer player can literally on the same day see themselves in one session BH flipping short serves they never thought they could... with ease... a real safe banana flip using a squeeze of the hand light pressure. Allow ball to drop and impact 4-5 cm above table on the descent... why? that downward energy is counteracted with the upward swing of the banana when you graze size and go up... this is a very safe and conservative banana flip.

There is a timing to your step and hit. You see serve, determine it will be short to middle or BH, you WAIT for ball to get near net... then you step to the right (for a RH player) of where ball will bounce... step and squeeze... your tip will be downward some before your squeeze, you get your upper arm and elbow out there and you have leverage easily... you will be on time to hit at the right moment where ball is falling.

This does not produce a mega fast and uber spinny flip, but it is safe, easy to use, and consistent if you get the timing and impact plane right. Very easy to start doing those.

The problem is as you state, SEEING and REALIZING what is happening in terms of what is on ball, where it goes, when... as Tony says, that takes a lot of reps for the discernment of that to be natural. What can be natural though is for the short balls you DO read is that conservative banana impact not too far over table not too hard, just land it and land it in a tough spot for opponent.

I posted a vid some months back of Haruka, a popular youtube Japanese lady who speaks Korean and is in many vids, she demonstrated good and bad ways on this. The shot itself is easy, but realizing what is coming takes time and reps.

Thanks DE - very helpful and something I will try next practice. I have typically been trying to impact ball at its peak but will now let it drop. The other variable seems to be the bat face angle - if I close it too much then it hits the net (obvious I know) but it always feels like a shot that does not lend itself to a more open bat angle until I try it and the ball lands.

I also notice a perceptible pause when I watch accomplished players use the flip - with wrist cocked and bat in place but before the actual stroke is made. In other words they seem to be in position very early to play the shot.

Der_Echte · Jul 14, 2022

The elite and pro players have a totally different flip... this version I am showing you where you let ball drop and step in is so easy raw beginners start landing over 50% after just 15 minutes. It isn't the strong flip you see elites use, way different, but it is easy and stable - very important when you start out... PLUS... you can EVOLVE your flip from there with more explosion and a little lower arm. Getting the timing for that make it easier to learn the straight flip and power flips later down the line.

For now, just a consistent BH flip return of serve may negate server's advantage at your level.

KIM JUNG HOON also made a vid on BH flipping and added the wrinkle to move to the right (as a RH player) EVEN MORE, then track backwards on your ankles pivoting towards ball... this gets you in excellent position to flip it in any direction with leverage and good timing.

Might take a while to dig that vid up, but I know I jisted one of KJH's vids covering exactly this. He advocate to allow ball to drop real low and banana lower power and get it on the table. That counts for a lot at any level.

Wrighty67 · Jul 14, 2022

Der_Echte said:
The elite and pro players have a totally different flip... this version I am showing you where you let ball drop and step in is so easy raw beginners start landing over 50% after just 15 minutes. It isn't the strong flip you see elites use, way different, but it is easy and stable - very important when you start out... PLUS... you can EVOLVE your flip from there with more explosion and a little lower arm. Getting the timing for that make it easier to learn the straight flip and power flips later down the line.

For now, just a consistent BH flip return of serve may negate server's advantage at your level.

KIM JUNG HOON also made a vid on BH flipping and added the wrinkle to move to the right (as a RH player) EVEN MORE, then track backwards on your ankles pivoting towards ball... this gets you in excellent position to flip it in any direction with leverage and good timing.

Might take a while to dig that vid up, but I know I jisted one of KJH's vids covering exactly this. He advocate to allow ball to drop real low and banana lower power and get it on the table. That counts for a lot at any level.

Thanks - got it. I’ll look out for that video.

Der_Echte · Jul 14, 2022

YEAH !! Here is the thread I made @Wrighty67.

Kim Jung Hoon Discusses a DIFFERENT approach to Chakita flips (tabletennisdaily.com)

HERE is the vid from KJH on this kind of flip. Be aware he demonstrates both good and bad approaches.

Wrighty67 · Jul 14, 2022

Der_Echte said:
YEAH !! Here is the thread I made @Wrighty67.

Kim Jung Hoon Discusses a DIFFERENT approach to Chakita flips (tabletennisdaily.com)

HERE is the vid from KJH on this kind of flip. Be aware he demonstrates both good and bad approaches.

Nice - thanks

LDM7 · Jul 14, 2022

Wrighty67 said:
Thanks - that's helpful.

I have a robot and have been using that to deliver a short ball with a little bounce which I then try to flick - any other advice as to how to cover it in practice?

Wrighty Mate,

Too bad you're in England & I am in California

I would love to do BH/FH flick drills with you (service return & during rally)

Please be reminded practicing flicks on a robot (known) gives you reps - perfecting or experimenting with racket angles, timing, placement ... etc, Different than in-game situations (unknown)

I have found practice flipping service returns of many different plyrs helps

Three areas I have found success are:

1) get as low to the ball as possible to "smell the ball"

2) softer racket grip allows rubber to capture the ball a smidget longer

3) position racket just above the table, at or below net height

Finally, I have found Seth Pech service returns videos on flips helpful

Take care,

Wrighty67 · Jul 14, 2022

Littledragonman7 said:
Wrighty Mate,

Too bad you're in England & I am in California

I would love to do BH/FH flick drills with you (service return & during rally)

Please be reminded practicing flicks on a robot (known) gives you reps - perfecting or experimenting with racket angles, timing, placement ... etc, Different than in-game situations (unknown)

I have found practice flipping service returns of many different plyrs helps

Three areas I have found success are:

1) get as low to the ball as possible to "smell the ball"

2) softer racket grip allows rubber to capture the ball a smidget longer

3) position racket just above the table, at or below net height

Finally, I have found Seth Pech service returns videos on flips helpful

Take care,

Hey LD7 - that’s a great shame, I’d have liked that!

Those are good tips - I’ll certainly remember those, thanks.

Pointer53343 · Jul 14, 2022

Nice info!

Pointer53343 · Jul 14, 2022

I think none can perform better than chinese and autralian table tennis players.

Wrighty67 · Jul 17, 2022

Here’s a video of me practicing it along with BH topspin - any feedback very welcome;

Backhand flip advice

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