How do you learn the counter-punch stroke?

Lycanthrope said:

She is not blocking. That is a close to table fast loop, still a topspin skill but more compact. You can start from normal FH/BH loop shadow practices, then cut of all the unnecessary big swing/backswing and big rotation as you do not need them when close to table.

In my opinion, players should be able to loop/counter-loop consistently before they go to this stage.

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famanson said:

^ I fully agree with this

My coach gave me a very good insight: the closer to the table, the more compact the stroke is. Striking the ball with a backhand topspin right off the bounce means that you'd need to use your wrist more and elbow/hip less. In our language, we have a specific name for this stroke: a "demi" (aka half) backhand topspin.

Keeping that in mind, because of my physical features and lack of techniques, I cannot play such a fierce backhand with speed like Aya so it's not realistic to emulate exactly what she does in my opinion. What to do instead is to stay as close to the table as possible and use a few compact fast backhands with good placement upon a third ball attack to try and find an opportunity to end the point as the opponent is put on his/her back foot

In order to develop this kind of stroke, I'd recommend:
- Fully develop a decent regular backhand with good control
- You must also have decent footwork to support your close-to-the-table movements
- Lots and lots of multiball training
- Focus on speed and placement

We've been using this drill lately, which I think is very beneficial for my competition play:
- I'd serve with backspin and attack the third ball with a forehand shot
- After that, he wanted me to play as many demi backhands to his backhand as I could, but try to make micro placement adjustments and score with surprise balls to his elbow (making the kill with forehand is also acceptable)
- Latest video is here

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Gozo said:

First off, love your video. Your stroke is clean and unhurried. You seem like a player who choose to master the technical skill first rather than over-power it with overkill shots to gain points unlike me, I am so ashamed. Kudos on that!

Those statement I highlighted is also what my coach advocate, i.e, BH must be stable. If not able to gain point is ok, just make sure your BH can return the ball so that your FH has the opportunity to wrest the point. My coach knows I have an over-kill FH so that is why he is making a tactic that works for me. BH to support my FH.

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famanson said:

We've been using this drill lately, which I think is very beneficial for my competition play:
- I'd serve with backspin and attack the third ball with a forehand shot
- After that, he wanted me to play as many demi backhands to his backhand as I could, but try to make micro placement adjustments and score with surprise balls to his elbow (making the kill with forehand is also acceptable)
- Latest video is here

Click to expand...

Tony's Table Tennis said:

very good drill.
This is a popular match drill, as underspin serve is commonly used in match play.

There is a saying, if you can secure your bh side, then you won't give points away easily.
And that is why (for womens TT more) that BH training is heavily focused on.

For your BH, I would suggest more brush.
You can see when you practice your own bh action (without the ball, you brushing into the air) - there is a good brushing angle. However with actual ball contact, you can see that you are actually pushing the ball down after your brushing.
So that is more pushing the ball out, than opposed to brushing the ball more.

If you can get more contact with the gripping of the ball and relying on the forward impact more on a your wrist and less on your arm, then you will have a lot more control and can add more speed/power by accelerating your arm even more.

Kind of think that your wrist is the grip while arm is the speed.

However, as is, your gripping of the ball is not enough. So try and get more on.
hope the above makes sense, and you can re-watch your video and see if you can spot what I'm pointing out. (look for

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famanson said:

Excellent spot. You are right, my coach also keeps telling me to use less elbow for this stroke close to the table

I can brush more during multiball (as you correctly pointed out, the brushing angle when I waved my blade in the air is what I was aiming for), but in single ball drills, I intuitively adds some elbow and push the ball down. My coach keeps telling me to trust my wrist more, maybe eventually I’ll get it one of these days 😄

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Tony's Table Tennis said:

I find this mistake quite often.
I think it is a mental block you need to overcome.

You either don't trust your brush, or you worry you will brush too much and get the ball too high or long.

I suggest you to try something different - breath in when you doing the backswing, hold in when waiting for the ball and when going forward with your wrist, breath out powerfully.
When that breadth sound stops, so must your wrist/arm. In the same time, aim for it to stop where it should stop.
the breath out is wrist only and use the wrist to guide out your arm (not the other way around)

This way breathing method is to also help you add more power to the shot, but on the other side, let you be in control of that millisecond of the brushing action and I'm hoping will take away what ever thought you have in your mind.

This is the first time I'm trying to explain this in text form, so not sure if it will make sense or work.

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Hi Tony,

So for this drill, I was not trying to win the point, just focused on landing as many backhands on to the table as possible: https://youtu.be/AJnVdTwlWPo

The timing on the first one after the opening backhand was off, so there was that elbow extension pushing the ball down again. I realised that and attempted to correct by adjusting my feet a little then my wrist just guided the arm with each crisp stroke - my coach said that sensation of wrist acceleration taking the ball early on bounce is what I should burn into my muscle memory. Is that something close to what you were trying to describe?

famanson said:

Hi Tony,

So for this drill, I was not trying to win the point, just focused on landing as many backhands on to the table as possible: https://youtu.be/AJnVdTwlWPo

The timing on the first one after the opening backhand was off, so there was that elbow extension pushing the ball down again. I realised that and attempted to correct by adjusting my feet a little then my wrist just guided the arm with each crisp stroke - my coach said that sensation of wrist acceleration taking the ball early on bounce is what I should burn into my muscle memory. Is that something close to what you were trying to describe?

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This is so much better.

I think some forumers or western world calls this the snap of the wrist. meaning you can see where your wrist stops.
and when it stops, so must your arm.

Now the trick is, how long do you need for it to be built into muscle memory, and then when you start mixing the drills with more movement and fh/bh drills, on how much the new habits stays put.
of course, when comes match time, the challenge is even higher.

Table tennis is not easy, the first tasks is to acknowledge areas that need improvement and to actually (practically) improve.
So well done!!

On your first shot, since it is an incoming underspin ball. You can bring your right foot a little bit forward (half a step should fine, if the ball is shorter, then 1 step). This forward movement by your feet, will provide more angle for your hip/waist and allow your stroke to be smoother. This angle will also give you more confident and should be able to override the worry of why you had to push down.

Tony's Table Tennis said:

This is so much better.

I think some forumers or western world calls this the snap of the wrist. meaning you can see where your wrist stops.
and when it stops, so must your arm.

Now the trick is, how long do you need for it to be built into muscle memory, and then when you start mixing the drills with more movement and fh/bh drills, on how much the new habits stays put.
of course, when comes match time, the challenge is even higher.

Table tennis is not easy, the first tasks is to acknowledge areas that need improvement and to actually (practically) improve.
So well done!!

On your first shot, since it is an incoming underspin ball. You can bring your right foot a little bit forward (half a step should fine, if the ball is shorter, then 1 step). This forward movement by your feet, will provide more angle for your hip/waist and allow your stroke to be smoother. This angle will also give you more confident and should be able to override the worry of why you had to push down.

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Re: the underspin shot, I know exactly what you mean since my coach mentioned this to me several times. I am still very forehand oriented so I automatically prepares my right foot a bit deeper for a forehand shot all the time even though I know the drill is 100% backhand 😂

I’ll try to make a more conscious effort next session and see how that goes

To learn this stroke I think you just need to practice a lot of blocking, try to take the ball as early as possible. And when you are confident and consistent enough, add just a little power. Multiball random Fh bh block probably is the best drill.

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Tony's Table Tennis said:

It doesn't matter
I can do with both.
I teach students with both

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Waldner used to do those kind of punchy BH blocks with flexy blades, as Jorgen Persson did it with a more direct one with koto outer ply, but a flexy one gives you more control when you want to punch the BH block at the very beginning of learning that stroke, or simply when being a beginner developing skills. Damien eloi uses either ayous blades (Swing IV S from Tibhar) or hinoki/carbon-texalium ones ( Andro Treiber FO) with a more evident catapult effect, a kind of flexy/not flexy depending on the stroke you do with it..