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  1. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #1

    09c sponge better than Dignics 05 sponge?

    Today I tried hitting with some mates' rackets. One was a D09c that was some months old and all the tackiness had worn out. Another was a brand new Dignics 05. Based on reviews, I was expecting that 05 would be faster.

    Both were excellent, fast and responsive. Compared to my normal rubbers (using $13 Moon Speed ATM), there are a pretty big difference in performance.

    However, I felt that the 09c sponge was a lot faster, more powerful, more penetrating. The 05 felt softer and more forgiving, but didn't have as much authority as the 09c. The 09c really had a strong, authoritative feel and sound.

    Anybody else feel this way? I was thinking, why don't they give this same 09c sponge on the 05 topsheet?

  2. NDH is offline
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    #2

    Unless some miracle has occurred, I just don’t see how this is possible.

    I appreciate the lack of tackiness on the 09C could potentially increase the speed, as the ball isn’t sticking to the rubber as much as a new sheet…… But I still don’t think it would be enough to outgun a sheet of 05.

    05 is much faster than 09C, which has been documented numerous times. So it’s going to be very hard to believe the one occasion where it isn’t.

    But TT is clearly very difficult to give feedback on, as playing levels and personal opinion come into it a lot.

    Playing devils advocate based on what you’ve said……

    You can’t have bundles of speed and bundles of spin. The more speed you have, the less spin you get.

    On my attacking shots, I can generate pretty much the same amount of speed with both rubbers, but I get a lot more spin with D09C.

    If 05 had the 09C sponge, it would lose the properties that make 05 good, without really gaining much of an advantage.

    Less touch, less control, less feeling, less spin.

    But to reiterate, whilst you think it would have more speed, I do not…..

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  3. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #3
    It's possible the blade is what made the difference to me. The worn out D09c was on a ZJK zlc blade (not Super zlc).

    The Dig05 was on LGY ALC blade.

    I believe the ZJK blade is slightly faster, but still that really didn't feel like the reason for the difference. It really felt like the sponge was making the difference. D09c felt like a snappier, more authoritative sponge. Felt like each backhand drive was a shotgun blast.

    D05 was softer and maybe had better feeling and touch, but didn't have the same snap to it.

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    #4
    I’ve played with both of these quite a lot recently and have to agree with NDH. 05 is much livelier and faster in every respect with similar shots, to the extent that, unless on a slower 5 ply blade, I can’t contemplate using it. On my Viscaria I can safely play 09c but definitely not 05, which renders it uncontrollable under pressure.

    09c feels harder and more controllable and takes more effort to get the speed out of it, but the trade off is an easier rubber to play with for me.

    05 on BH is certainly better and I prefer it to 09c on this wing.

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    It's possible the blade is what made the difference to me. The worn out D09c was on a ZJK zlc blade (not Super zlc).

    The Dig05 was on LGY ALC blade.

    I believe the ZJK blade is slightly faster, but still that really didn't feel like the reason for the difference. It really felt like the sponge was making the difference. D09c felt like a snappier, more authoritative sponge. Felt like each backhand drive was a shotgun blast.

    D05 was softer and maybe had better feeling and touch, but didn't have the same snap to it.

    My experience of ZLC vs ALC is that the ZLC is noticeably more bouncy and fast.

    But it's very very hard to compare rubbers when they are used on different blades, especially if you aren't used to them.

    With my own personal experience, and with enough evidence/feedback/reviews of the two rubbers, I'm confident in saying that the D05 rubber/sponge is generally faster than the D09C rubber/sponge.

    However, if you were to hit both of them very hard, the D09C will feel crisper, with more of a feeling.

    The D05 is more like a Tenergy, where that crispness is lost, and it's slightly more "mushy" - It's not a soft rubber, but it doesn't have the same crispness as the hard sponge on D09C.

    The difference between the two is very noticeable when knocking up.

    D09C is a very average/medium speed initially, and gets quicker as you spin the ball and start playing faster.

    D05 is quick from the off, with very little effort.

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  6. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #6
    I guess my way of testing was that I was standing a couple steps behind the table, and hitting hard backhand drives. I was hitting justabout as hard as I can. Definitely 09c felt faster, crisper, snappier, and authoritative.

    D05 felt mushier. As you said, its probably faster on lighter shots, but on the hardest shots it felt slower to me.

    When talking about speed, isnt the point to find the speed when you are hitting your most offensive attacking shots?

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    #7
    Had the D09C ever been boosted?

  8. NDH is offline
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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    I guess my way of testing was that I was standing a couple steps behind the table, and hitting hard backhand drives. I was hitting justabout as hard as I can. Definitely 09c felt faster, crisper, snappier, and authoritative.

    D05 felt mushier. As you said, its probably faster on lighter shots, but on the hardest shots it felt slower to me.

    When talking about speed, isnt the point to find the speed when you are hitting your most offensive attacking shots?

    I understand what you are saying, but that test doesn't give a real world representation of speed.

    Unless you are a very very very high level, you are not playing all out on every shot (and possibly not on many shots at all).

    You don't have the luxury of standing in one place, ready for the ball to come in a spot you are expecting it, so you can unload a monster backhand.

    In real world play, D05 gives you much easier access to speed, and will absolutely be easier for people to hit faster shots.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I understand what you are saying, but that test doesn't give a real world representation of speed.

    Of course it does. It tells you wether one combination of blade and rubber is faster than another.
    Steal a little and they throw You in jail, Steal a lot and they make You King... (Dylan)

  10. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by NDH

    I understand what you are saying, but that test doesn't give a real world representation of speed.

    Unless you are a very very very high level, you are not playing all out on every shot (and possibly not on many shots at all).

    You don't have the luxury of standing in one place, ready for the ball to come in a spot you are expecting it, so you can unload a monster backhand.

    In real world play, D05 gives you much easier access to speed, and will absolutely be easier for people to hit faster shots.

    Conceptually this makes sense to me. D05 is easier to access its speed. D09c has more pop on high level shots, but it harder to access.

    But it still brings me to the original question. For high level players (those who can easily access to speed of the stiffer sponge), for top pros, wouldn't they appreciate the more powerful D09c sponge on the untacky topsheet? I find that the tackiness takes away from the speed (hence why the worn out D09c felt very fast). Sure some people would want tackiness, but I think a lot of players would appreciate a version without tackiness.

    Again, from my way of testing both rubbers, the D09c sponge felt a lot more dominating on my best offensive shots. Presumably for top players, even their average shots would be like my best offensive shots.

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    #11
    Despite the rubber theoretical properties (hardness, tackiness, springiness, sponge type), you really just have to try a rubber on a blade with your technique style to have the final say. Anecdotal example, I could get more speed with STN vs Tenergy 05 on the backhand on a PG-7 with my technique (!). Standard knowledge would suggest that this is wierd, but for my blade and technique it was very real.

    Of course, the dilemma to testing every combination is that rubbers and blades cost alot of money.... so that is why I stick to experimenting with cheap chinese stuff. 😁 If I lived in an alternate dimension where I was a Butterfly sponsored pro on the other hand...

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    #12
    D05 definitively more dynamic than D09C, I use D09C on FH and D05 on BH with Viscaria Super ALC. I used to have both sides with D09C but I needed something bouncer on my BH when playing at mid distance. Spin with D05 remains very good. D09C on FH good for slow opening top spin, counter top and flat hits, also very good on short game.

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    #13
    Today I had the chance to hit with a guy's D80. Actually I found that it is a little in between the 05 and the 09c. It had a slightly stiffer and more solid feel than the 05, slightly more powerful and authoritative feeling.

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Today I had the chance to hit with a guy's D80. Actually I found that it is a little in between the 05 and the 09c. It had a slightly stiffer and more solid feel than the 05, slightly more powerful and authoritative feeling.

    Interesting - makes me wonder if the 05 sheet you played was not as it should be. My D80 is livelier and slightly faster still than my 05.


  15. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #15
    Well the D05 was on a LGY ALC, so it was a little bit flexy.

    The D80 was on some black carbon Gambler blade. So that also may have contributed to the more solid, punishing feeling.

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  16. IB66 is offline
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    #16
    Going back to the original question - “would Pros appreciate the harder D09C sponge combined with say D05 top sheet?”
    Not being a Pro standard player!!!, I can only offer what I think and what the manufacturers seem to be doing at the moment.

    Trend - (generally, not always the case)
    Harder sponges, slightly tacky top sheets, 55 - 60 degree sponges.
    Slightly less hard sponge grippy top sheet. 50 - 53 degree sponges.

    I feel that consistency & controllability is a major factor along with how the rubber ‘feels’

    Pros having greater skills, technique, feel etc etc are better placed to utilise equipment. However there seems to be a compromise choice to be made by both the player and the manufacturers.

    D05 combined with the harder D09C sponge may have better speed and spin capability but this is likely to be comprised by the fact it may be very very unforgiving and difficult to control / use. Which may out weigh any benefits that could be gained.

    Hence D09C’s slightly tacky top sheet. Which helps with Spin and control/safety of shots. Slight loss of speed.

    Perhaps, if the D05 top sheet had been designed to be softer / thinner with different pimple size & pattern, down Andro’s R53 route, then maybe the D09C sponge hardness could be an option.

    Butterfly still have this option open to them, max sponge is still generally 2.1mm, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a BTY rubber released in the future with thicker sponge, thinner softish rubber top sheet either with or without tackiness.

    on another note, what seems to happen is that the players boost rubbers (allegedly!!!!) for a better ‘feel’ and (allegedly) better spin/speed controllability, the booster softens the sponge!!!!!!!!!…………😂


  17. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #17

    Michael is very high level player

    TTT

  18. IB66 is offline
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    #18
    For all I know, there could be elite level sponsored Pro’s using ‘personalised’ D05 with D09C sponge.

  19. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #19
    Well indeed, the other thread with pros photos show that many top players are now choosing 09c for backhand. There is a clear trend.

    if they like it for bh, im just wondering if they wouldnt also like the 09c sponge on the d05 topsheet.

    There is a tradeoff for the harder faster sponge. But also tradeoff for the tacky surface.

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