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  1. VictorMoraga is offline
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    #1

    Playing a tournament match against a Defensive Player

    Hey people 👋
    Last weekend I played a match against a Defensive Player in a Tournament at LATTA "South California - US"
    That match was a roller coaster but always fun playing with those players.
    I know I'm guilty of being too "Greedy" but I really enjoyed the match

    Do you like playing against choppers?

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    #2
    Victor,

    1st of, way to stay in the match and last... when you have the serve at 9-9 in hte 5th as an offensive player, you MUST CRAVE this... you have the advantage of initiative.

    Before I start with my few comments, I want to address your "Greedy" thing. Having some greed in TT is good. You should WANT to TAKE THE INITIATIVE whenever possible and when it makes sense for the ball given and the risk. If you do not have this desire, you will play too passively and pass up quality chances to attack... and vs this kind of player, he will eat you alive for this. The few times in the vid you asked about being too greedy, it was a mixed thing. The ball you slapped into the net, you had little chance of making the shot like that on that ball, so it was a poor risk decision... another way to say too greedy in different words. Another couple times, you had IMO made the "right" choice to use a loop drive, but you didn't quite make the shot. A player has to do his own risk assessment throughout the match and know his abilities, his percentages... and make good decisions... yet all of that means nothing without courage and confidence... you also get confidence form KNOWING you can make the pay and SEEING the ball land. They work together and the levels of those change in a match. Ultimately, you have to have faith and belief in your abilities, your training preparation and your tournament mental performance. You were strong enough in those areas and it really helped overcome some technical mistakes and tactical mistakes.

    You hang around Stellan, so I am SURE you have heard these 3-4 things I discuss about playing vs defensive players. You did some of them in the match and some of them not enough. You played right into his strengths in many rallies.

    1) On serve, choppers LOVE long serves.. they REALLY want a long ball to initiate the kinda of rally they want... it allows then to quickly get into the depth (mid to far) from table they want to make the seeing of ball and movement to ball easier. Serving long every time is a tactical mistake IMO vs defensive choppers at that level. (maybe you get away with it vs a 2000 or lower chopper) Allowing chopper to get into his comfort zone is assisting the chopper IMO. Choppers HATE IT when they have to stay close to the table... so serving short helps... however, they will just push it deep of the side line or deep near endline to make it difficult for you to push short and keep them over table... but you can loosen up, not attack right away, and push HALF LONG... that changes their rhythm and gives you a better chance to open when they might not be set or at least not be in the exact depth they want. You can also serve half long, especially jus to the side of the corner. This does the same thing... but right away. Sometimes it is good to have them move in, move back, and move back in before you attack, sometimes just attack right away when they are not quite set in the depth of position they want.

    2) Choice of opening attack... a lot of conventional coaching advice is to open with light spin very safe not go for much risk... but those balls (unless used as a variation unexpectedly) do not trouble this class of chopper. I would advocate for HEAVY slow spin low to medium high SLOW and extreme heavy spin...whether they use pips or inverted, this is a VERY DIFFICULT ball to return low and control depth... you get a lot of chopped out or high and short returns... which the next obvious shot of choice is a finishing shot... loopkill or smash... you get higher percentage balls for this from a quality extreme heavy topspin ball... you did this at 1:52 and got a chop out... again at 5:20 and got a high short ball to pound to finish then scream like an animal (I KILL WITH CERTAINTY !!!) so the entire hall knows your business. (not) but it is a good feeling to you and demoralizing to opponent to setup that ball and finish it high percentage strong.

    3) Moving chopper in and out... you do not have to attack every ball, so passing on an attack and pushing long to get chopper to take a step in, then declining AGAIN, but softer and give a half long ball will give you a new dynamic sometimes... it certainly throws chopper off rhythm... they want to hang back and move side to side and chop u down.

    4) MIDDLE... the middle is not where we think it is with these choppers at this level. they have excellent one step to side and if you loopdrive to what is the conventional middle (their playing arm armpit) then they just slide step hop step away and chop (or counter) and here you go again... rally is in their favor their rhythm their liking their comfort their confidence their pace and you get the idea. WHEN you go for a strong shot (not your opener) like if they leave the ball a little high and you can loopdrive hard... go for a flat shot (or a smash with some underspin to make ball rise) and have the ball be rising strongly after bounce and target should be THEIR HEAD. so WHY should we go head hunting... if this player is good at a quick one step, it is STILL damned difficult for the player to handle this rising high ball 1/2-1 step away... they are good at wide balls or balls to their strike zone on both wings, but NOT this ball.

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    #3
    The question of DO I LIKE to play vs defensive players... I usually CRAVE this and am usually successful vs same or a level higher... but if they are two levels higher, at that level, there are good reasons why defensive player is 2 levels better, so it is not an easy thing. In general, I compete strongly vs defensive types. I like it. I like playing spin balls and watch them miss shots and look at their bat or have their coach cuss them out for missing an easy looking play that wasn't.

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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    Victor,

    1st of, way to stay in the match and last... when you have the serve at 9-9 in hte 5th as an offensive player, you MUST CRAVE this... you have the advantage of initiative.

    Before I start with my few comments, I want to address your "Greedy" thing. Having some greed in TT is good. You should WANT to TAKE THE INITIATIVE whenever possible and when it makes sense for the ball given and the risk. If you do not have this desire, you will play too passively and pass up quality chances to attack... and vs this kind of player, he will eat you alive for this. The few times in the vid you asked about being too greedy, it was a mixed thing. The ball you slapped into the net, you had little chance of making the shot like that on that ball, so it was a poor risk decision... another way to say too greedy in different words. Another couple times, you had IMO made the "right" choice to use a loop drive, but you didn't quite make the shot. A player has to do his own risk assessment throughout the match and know his abilities, his percentages... and make good decisions... yet all of that means nothing without courage and confidence... you also get confidence form KNOWING you can make the pay and SEEING the ball land. They work together and the levels of those change in a match. Ultimately, you have to have faith and belief in your abilities, your training preparation and your tournament mental performance. You were strong enough in those areas and it really helped overcome some technical mistakes and tactical mistakes.

    You hang around Stellan, so I am SURE you have heard these 3-4 things I discuss about playing vs defensive players. You did some of them in the match and some of them not enough. You played right into his strengths in many rallies.

    1) On serve, choppers LOVE long serves.. they REALLY want a long ball to initiate the kinda of rally they want... it allows then to quickly get into the depth (mid to far) from table they want to make the seeing of ball and movement to ball easier. Serving long every time is a tactical mistake IMO vs defensive choppers at that level. (maybe you get away with it vs a 2000 or lower chopper) Allowing chopper to get into his comfort zone is assisting the chopper IMO. Choppers HATE IT when they have to stay close to the table... so serving short helps... however, they will just push it deep of the side line or deep near endline to make it difficult for you to push short and keep them over table... but you can loosen up, not attack right away, and push HALF LONG... that changes their rhythm and gives you a better chance to open when they might not be set or at least not be in the exact depth they want. You can also serve half long, especially jus to the side of the corner. This does the same thing... but right away. Sometimes it is good to have them move in, move back, and move back in before you attack, sometimes just attack right away when they are not quite set in the depth of position they want.

    2) Choice of opening attack... a lot of conventional coaching advice is to open with light spin very safe not go for much risk... but those balls (unless used as a variation unexpectedly) do not trouble this class of chopper. I would advocate for HEAVY slow spin low to medium high SLOW and extreme heavy spin...whether they use pips or inverted, this is a VERY DIFFICULT ball to return low and control depth... you get a lot of chopped out or high and short returns... which the next obvious shot of choice is a finishing shot... loopkill or smash... you get higher percentage balls for this from a quality extreme heavy topspin ball... you did this at 1:52 and got a chop out... again at 5:20 and got a high short ball to pound to finish then scream like an animal (I KILL WITH CERTAINTY !!!) so the entire hall knows your business. (not) but it is a good feeling to you and demoralizing to opponent to setup that ball and finish it high percentage strong.

    3) Moving chopper in and out... you do not have to attack every ball, so passing on an attack and pushing long to get chopper to take a step in, then declining AGAIN, but softer and give a half long ball will give you a new dynamic sometimes... it certainly throws chopper off rhythm... they want to hang back and move side to side and chop u down.

    4) MIDDLE... the middle is not where we think it is with these choppers at this level. they have excellent one step to side and if you loopdrive to what is the conventional middle (their playing arm armpit) then they just slide step hop step away and chop (or counter) and here you go again... rally is in their favor their rhythm their liking their comfort their confidence their pace and you get the idea. WHEN you go for a strong shot (not your opener) like if they leave the ball a little high and you can loopdrive hard... go for a flat shot (or a smash with some underspin to make ball rise) and have the ball be rising strongly after bounce and target should be THEIR HEAD. so WHY should we go head hunting... if this player is good at a quick one step, it is STILL damned difficult for the player to handle this rising high ball 1/2-1 step away... they are good at wide balls or balls to their strike zone on both wings, but NOT this ball.
    What a Feedback !!! . Thank you so much.
    I really appreciate your post 😍 and I enjoyed and saved every word.
    Hard work in progress. Thank you for the advices 🥳

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    #5
    Timo has a pretty cool video on how to play a chopper https://youtu.be/Cj5kgOLUV7EI like the tip to alternate slow and short topspin with hard topspin and also between body and out wide. Also maybe play some drop shots like ma lin

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    Last edited by Dominikk85; 08-01-2022 at 09:49 AM.

  6. Der_Echte is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sum Joker who bumped hiz head
    ...Ultimately, you have to have faith and belief in your abilities, your training preparation and your tournament mental performance. You were strong enough in those areas and it really helped overcome some technical mistakes and tactical mistakes.

    You hang around Stellan, so I am SURE you have heard these 3-4 things I discuss about playing vs defensive players. You did some of them in the match and some of them not enough. You played right into his strengths in many rallies...
    More than anything I said specifically about any geek-out technical stuff we technical people just luv to discuss... what is in my quote trumps everything and the championship goes through there first.

    You have the most excellent training resource in Stellan, I am sure he is telling these things and a lot more, he is REALLY good at articulating all the other important things you do as a player for one a thousand example look at opponent's feet and stance in rally and exploit it. You have a good and strong training environment and are seasoned enough to be mentally strong in a match to stay calm and enough focus and decision making under pressure.

    That stuff doesn't grow on trees.

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    #7
    Great match - well played indeed vs a very challenging and consistent player!

    Your pushes were great and allowed a reset before you went again with the bigger forehands.

    Would be good to see the match you lost?

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrighty67
    Great match - well played indeed vs a very challenging and consistent player!

    Your pushes were great and allowed a reset before you went again with the bigger forehands.

    Would be good to see the match you lost?
    Thank you 😊. I will start editing more matches and joining monthly to different tournaments, to upload more for sure.
    Or compiling shots from different matches 👌

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    #9
    From a cpenholder to another, WELL DONE!!

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis
    From a cpenholder to another, WELL DONE!!
    Thank you Tony. It was not an easy match.
    I had to be WILD and use my strengths.
    Some tactical mistakes but I always learn.
    9-9 "5th game" was not easy but I took some risks and I finished strong 🥳 👊
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by VictorMoraga
    Thank you Tony. It was not an easy match.
    I had to be WILD and use my strengths.
    Some tactical mistakes but I always learn.
    9-9 "5th game" was not easy but I took some risks and I finished strong 🥳 👊

    The down the line at 8-9 was key. You changed directions when it mattered the most.

    9-9 you had a high risk shot, and glad your wrist saved you with your final top spin.

    Then that cross court inside out - you watch too much Xu Xin

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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    The down the line at 8-9 was key. You changed directions when it mattered the most.

    9-9 you had a high risk shot, and glad your wrist saved you with your final top spin.

    Then that cross court inside out - you watch too much Xu Xin

    Good eye 👀 Tony.
    Somehow I decided to make a sidespin down the line.
    99% of the time I like to bother the opponent with a sidespin in the center of the player or cross court.
    I will try that one next time.

    But like you said, change direction was key.
    Hehehe cross court inside out.
    Yup way too much Xu Xin there 😅

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    #13
    Very awesome match!! I wish I could somehow get to this level of play.

    Btw, isn't that Aya from Ayalog in the back setting up her camera? Have you ever played her? That would be one very intriguing match that I would love to see!

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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Very awesome match!! I wish I could somehow get to this level of play.

    Btw, isn't that Aya from Ayalog in the back setting up her camera? Have you ever played her? That would be one very intriguing match that I would love to see!
    Hey 👋 Michael, I played her in the round robin.
    I beat her 3-2, where I was leading 2-0 and then I took unnecessary risks 2-2. And then back to serve and heavy topspin 3-2. It looks like she recorded the match and she will make a video with different points during the tournament soon.
    Pretty much the whole match was serve and openings.
    She's a good player but like other players said in the other thread she can't handle power topspin with heavy spin.
    I took advantage of that and after the serve a heavy topspin made the job.
    If you return soft balls she will take advantage of course, but making pressure with spin is something totally different.
    I will join that tournament monthly and of course I will record any match for uploading it. 🏓
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    #15
    oh wow! I guess you didn't take video of your match with her?

    Next time you play her, please record the whole match!

    It's very interesting to hear that your attacking style was able to penetrate her defense. It seems her strength is to use her counter-punch and efficiency to negate the strength of opponents attack.

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    #16
    Playing choppers is a good workout. Did not watch the whole match, but very good that you started to vary the tempo more in the fourth set. Just playing hard is awesome for choppers, then they do not need to move.

    I also find it very fun and interesting that you use penhold. Not common for an american with an exotic name!! Tell us the story why you use penhold!

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lula
    Playing choppers is a good workout. Did not watch the whole match, but very good that you started to vary the tempo more in the fourth set. Just playing hard is awesome for choppers, then they do not need to move.

    I also find it very fun and interesting that you use penhold. Not common for an american with an exotic name!! Tell us the story why you use penhold!
    Hey 👋 Lula, I was born in Chile.
    And I tried both handles "C-Pen and Shakehand" being a kid of 9 years old. And I like C-Pen too much. My former Coach is C-Pen and then my coach was Ren Guoqiang "Shakehand Right Hand". He was the Head Coach in Chile for many years and then He returned to China.

    During my training with him I was 15 years old, and He told me to start using RPB, because the kids in China started using it.
    Ren Guoqiang is well known in the National Team for his Multiball Training. My legs kept remembering me those training sessions 😆 😅

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    #18
    This chopper was definitely weak on his FH side while being far from the table, you could have win way more points like the last one and end the match way before, when I train with defensive LP choppers they always tell me to vary a lot the placements of the loops in order to get them out of their comfort zone that is the BH. So first, yeah push them out of tha table on their BH side, then switch to their FH side, and if it comes to be easier balls to play, sometimes the center with more powerfull loops can disturb them, because they can't generate wide chopping stroke with their BH played on their belly.

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    #19
    I wish more forum members would upload their matches. It's fun and cool to get to know people more through their games.

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    #20
    I have a tourney this Sunday... ( my last one for some time. I pinky promise )

    NB: If I upload the vid, you know I played well. If I don't you know I ....

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