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  1. Dominikk85 is offline
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    #1

    Why aren't one side short pip players twiddling more?

    I have always wondered about that. I never have played pips but basically you can't hit any topspin with it and basically just flat smash the ball, right?

    So why aren't players like mima ito or Mathias falck twiddling to their inverted side to for example loop a deep underspin push? If they don't twiddle couldn't you put them on defense by just doing a deep underspin push into their pips side and if it stays low below net height they can't really smash it?

    I also wonder why liu Guoliang didn't use his inverted side to serve. Doesn't it generate more spin than the pips side?

    Sorry if that is a stupid question as I have never played with any kind of pips.
    Last edited by Dominikk85; 08-15-2022 at 06:55 AM.

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    #2
    First, depending on the pips, you can put some amount of spin on the ball, not as much as with a backside rubber, but still.

    Second, the whole point of short pips is that you don't need to loop, since you cannot put much spin, you're not very sensitive to spin.
    So a long underspin push is not that bad and can sometimes simply be smashed (or SP-looped).

    For the service though many SP players do twiddle AFAIK.

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    #3
    At higher levels you may not have time to twiddle. Also, the benefit isn't that great. I have played with LP 0X and anti. It is harder to attack with anti and especially LP 0X. I twiddle when I think I am going to get a weak "conservative" return. It does take opponents by surprise when a ball the expect to come back slow with back spin, comes back fast with top spin. A lot of my twiddled shots come back high because the opponents have not compensated for the top spin or the speed.

    I have played with SP too. Mostly with 802-40 1.8mm and 802 1.5mm. It isn't worth the trouble twiddling since I can attack with either.
    Both 802 1.5mm and 802 1.8mm can put top spin on the ball but 802 1.5mm has a tough time stopping strong incoming top spin and return top spin. Both SPs can add to incoming back spin and return as top spin with no problem.

    I have a practice partner that plays with a TBS+Rakza 7 2mm and 802-40 1.8mm . He NEVER twiddles. He is deadly accurate with his 802-40 1.8mm on his BH.

    I have thought about buying some Rakza 7 PO just to try it out but if it has more grip than 802-40 and less than normal Rakza 7 then what is the point? I question I ask myself is what can I do with this rubber that I can''t do with another. In the case of Rakza 7 PO the answer is nothing.
    So why twiddle?

    I have twiddled with SP on my back hand but rarely. It isn't worth it.

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  4. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85
    I have always wondered about that. I never have played pips but basically you can't hit any topspin with it and basically just flat smash the ball, right?

    You can topspin with short pips.
    So why aren't players like mima ito or Mathias falck twiddling to their inverted side to for example loop a deep underspin push? If they don't twiddle couldn't you put them on defense by just doing a deep underspin push into their pips side and if it stays low below net height they can't really smash it?
    They can smash it.
    here is a video of a feed I did, the lefty uses SP on her fh.
    One of the drills (at 13:15 mark) is underspin push, and you can see how easy it is for her to get the ball back.
    at 21:40 mark, another girl also SP on FH.

    I also wonder why liu Guoliang didn't use his inverted side to serve. Doesn't it generate more spin than the pips side?
    He can generate spin in his serves with short pips.
    Many players do twiddle - especially Cpen players, at the end of the day, it is the style of play you want to follow.
    This is the same as asking why the worlds best chopper - joo se hyuk doesn't chopper LP on his FH side? well, the answer is, his FH inverted chop works for him.

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    Last edited by Tony's Table Tennis; 08-15-2022 at 11:04 AM.
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    #5
    Short pips players tend to play fast, very close to the table, and early off the bounce. Twiddling with those early timings is maybe more risky for you than for your opponent. I guess that's why you see long pips players twiddle more, simply more time for them.

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    #6
    That makes sense. I thought that short pips basically take out all spin and you only can smash flat with them.

    Also makes sense a lp chopper has more time to twiddle than a player like ito who plays super fast right on the table.

    I still wonder if for example mima ito wouldn't be a little more dangerous if she occasionally hit a spinnier backhand loop with the inverted side.

    But maybe it is really too hard to do and would cause more errors than good stuff.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85
    That makes sense. I thought that short pips basically take out all spin and you only can smash flat with them.

    Also makes sense a lp chopper has more time to twiddle than a player like ito who plays super fast right on the table.

    I still wonder if for example mima ito wouldn't be a little more dangerous if she occasionally hit a spinnier backhand loop with the inverted side.

    But maybe it is really too hard to do and would cause more errors than good stuff.

    Its more the style of play than it is "hard' to implemented. I do feel speed of the twiddle is not the issue - since SP attacking penholders can do it with enough time.

    give you another thing to think about.
    In elementary school level tt system. It isn't unusual for coaches to change players to SP, because of they lack of ability to brush the ball.
    In fact most of the SP players I see coming out, all started with inverted and was changed to SP for this reason.

    So if this reason is true, then asking the player to twiddle to inverted is actually not helping them, as they are used to that SP brush action and it is different to inverted. Or another way of saying it, they are not trained properly (or can then action properly) with the inverted stroke. So inverted rubber for then is higher risks.

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  8. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #8
    The spin of Liu Guoliang's serves with SP was 75 rev/sec. That was 38mm ball.

    The spin of SP serves can be more than 60 rec/sec among current pro and a few top amateur players.

    The spin of serves with inverted rubber among normal amateur players is under 40 rev/sec.

    But few pro players keep serving very very spiny ball, 40~70 rev/sec is enough for serves.

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    Last edited by Lycanthrope; 08-16-2022 at 03:53 AM.

  9. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycanthrope
    The spin of Liu Guoliang's serves with SP was 75 rev/sec. That was 38mm ball.

    The spin of SP serves can be more than 60 rec/sec among current pro and a few top amateur players.

    The spin of serves with inverted rubber among normal amateur players is under 40 rev/sec.

    But few pro players keep serving very very spiny ball, 40~70 rev/sec is enough for serves.

    I miss those 38mm days

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony's Table Tennis

    Its more the style of play than it is "hard' to implemented. I do feel speed of the twiddle is not the issue - since SP attacking penholders can do it with enough time.

    give you another thing to think about.
    In elementary school level tt system. It isn't unusual for coaches to change players to SP, because of they lack of ability to brush the ball.
    In fact most of the SP players I see coming out, all started with inverted and was changed to SP for this reason.

    So if this reason is true, then asking the player to twiddle to inverted is actually not helping them, as they are used to that SP brush action and it is different to inverted. Or another way of saying it, they are not trained properly (or can then action properly) with the inverted stroke. So inverted rubber for then is higher risks.

    Mattias Falck has said in an interview that he was not good with FH looping since an early age, so his coaches told him to use a SP rubber , with success.

    Some goes for Jia Nan YUAN, she doesn't even use any wrist motion, as she even wears a sponge wrist to help prevent any unwanted wrist motion.

    Important thing to notice: both are tall with huge legs, and they can't really bend them: that's a common issue with tall athletes, less flexibility in the legs, in volleyball the libero is the smaller guy in the team, and the basketball point guard is also the smallest, that's why it's difficult for them to FH loop when the ball comes with a strong underspin and therefore is really low.

    SP BH players are mostly blockers and punchers no matter the size they are, like Mima Ito, and they'll most of the time pivot to use their inverted FH side as soon as possible.

    Last edited by OldUser; 08-16-2022 at 05:58 AM.

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