Lookimg for a new blade

Lazer · Aug 16, 2022

Well in general you are right but make the blade real thin and you’ll loose that stiffness. I own a butterfly ALC.S and that’s a soft blade. I love the characteristics but hate the small handle. This blade has a very strong “innerforce effect” that has to come from a trampoline effect.

Cheers
L-zr

hipnotic · Aug 16, 2022

tabletennisdaily1 said:
I said crazy fast top speed. This is due to the flex. Speed and dwell are not mutually exclusive. A flexy blade gives you high gears and high top speed while retaining the dwelly feel. Think "w968 style".
Think of a diving board or other spring system. The more you compress and higher you jump, on the board, do you dwell less time onto the board? No. Now, if you bounce a ball on a hard vs soft floor, the ball will bounce higher on the hard surface. These are two different things.

People keep using the diving board analogy likes it's a great one, but it's not. For a diving board to function properly it needs to be calibrated to the user's weight, otherwise it will simply not spring back. "The spring constant of a springboard is usually adjusted by way of a fulcrum that is located approximately mid way along the springboard. Springboards are usually operated in a linear regime where they approximately obey Hooke's law. When loaded with a diver, the combination of the diver's approximately constant mass, and the constant stiffness of the spring(board) result in a resonance frequency that is adjustable by way of the spring constant (set by the fulcrum position). " The key term here is "resonant frequency", and the big difference is that a diving board is standing still, while in TT the blade is moving, which causes a pre-deflection. During play, the resonant frequency will only match for certain shots, in all other situations you will only get energy dissipation from that effect. So, you can't say that a flexy blade gives you high speed, otherwise an All-round classic would be the fastest blade of all time.

tabletennisdaily1 said:
So for example, Viscaria had koto top, hard, short dwell, nice crispy feel, faster at slow hits/blocks than the v5 pro, as expected. But you hit hard with v5, you get great speed from the flex, while retaining the long dwelly feel.

Here you are just confusing stiffness with hardness, and it still doesn't make much sense because the V5 has an Ash top ply, which is harder than Koto. None of these blades is really that flexy, Viscaria is usually around 1460Hz, and the V5 is a 6.3mm blade with ~1400Hz, not that far from Vis.

Lazer · Aug 16, 2022

But Sergio by adding carbon the trampoline must increase specially for a thin blade I don’t see any other way my ALC.S can work. It’s definitely flexible and has a real strong innerforce effect.

Cheers
L-zr

hipnotic · Aug 16, 2022

Lazer said:
But Sergio by adding carbon the trampoline must increase specially for a thin blade I don’t see any other way my ALC.S can work. It’s definitely flexible and has a real strong innerforce effect.

Cheers
L-zr

How a blade deflects is really important, you mostly have longitudinal deflection or flexibility, and out-of-plane deflection which can also be perceived as hardness. Here they are represented separately, but they happen simultaneously:

An all wood blade is mostly linear in terms of physical properties, it's really hard to have a stiff blade that is also not hard, and vice-versa. However, composite's mechanical properties are far greater than wood's, so when you use them you really can mess these up. You can have stiff and soft, flexible and hard, and everything in between. What happens with your ALC.S, and most inner fiber blades for that matter, is that, when you move out of the linear realm the there is less energy dissipation due to the presence of a composite layer. The king here is carbon, which is the stiffest fiber we use, if you use a plain Aramid, Arylate, Zylon or whatever fiber, you will get more deflection, more energy dissipation and less of that "trampoline" effect.

latej · Aug 16, 2022

hipnotic said:
The key term here is "resonant frequency", and the big difference is that a diving board is standing still, while in TT the blade is moving, which causes a pre-deflection. During play, the resonant frequency will only match for certain shots, in all other situations you will only get energy dissipation from that effect. So, you can't say that a flexy blade gives you high speed, otherwise an All-round classic would be the fastest blade of all time.

https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/speed

Pls pls pls.

Edit: Sergio, what is your opinion on allowing say 50% composite blade, vs 15% now. Would you enjoy it, or is it meaningless?

Lazer · Aug 16, 2022

hipnotic said:
How a blade deflects is really important, you mostly have longitudinal deflection or flexibility, and out-of-plane deflection which can also be perceived as hardness. Here they are represented separately, but they happen simultaneously:

An all wood blade is mostly linear in terms of physical properties, it's really hard to have a stiff blade that is also not hard, and vice-versa. However, composite's mechanical properties are far greater than wood's, so when you use them you really can mess these up. You can have stiff and soft, flexible and hard, and everything in between. What happens with your ALC.S, and most inner fiber blades for that matter, is that, when you move out of the linear realm the there is less energy dissipation due to the presence of a composite layer. The king here is carbon, which is the stiffest fiber we use, if you use a plain Aramid, Arylate, Zylon or whatever fiber, you will get more deflection, more energy dissipation and less of that "trampoline" effect.

Thanks that’s inline with what I thought, most of the innerforce effect is due to the trampoline effect.

Cheers
L-zr

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

Wow, this certainly went a bit off topic here 🤣

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

OldUser said:
No, please.. don't: carbon composite blades are definitely way less flexible than all wood or non carbon composite, you won't feel the ball the same way, no vibrations or very few, less control then. They will be stiffer, WAY MORE stiffer, I've done that mistake already with a Viscaria or a Omar Assar, when you're used to that all wood flexible kind of feel and vibrations, carbon kills it.

Yes I know, I was talking about wood blades that are a bit stiffer than my korbel but not that stiff to have a larger sweet spot. But thx for the reply 👍

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

Cloud said:
Hi evryone, im new here so forgive and correct me if i do anything wrong. Currently im playing with the japan edition korbel blade with h3 on the forehnad and tenergy 19 on the backhand. Im looking for a new blade and here is a list of what i want in the blade.
- large sweet spot
- has to have gud vibrations on hit so that i can feel the ball
- relatively long dwell time
- faster than my korbel
- flexible
Im mainly looking for my first carbon blade but allb wood is also fine as long as it can meet the requirements.

So just to make this a bit more simpler, Im looking for an all wood blade that is a bit faster than the korbel and has a larger sweet spot but without sacrificing the long dwell time and gud vibration/ball feel. Also the blade should be relatively felxible.

Thx for Evryones input so far 🙂

Brs · Aug 16, 2022

Cloud said:
Yes I know, I was talking about wood blades that are a bit stiffer than my korbel but not that stiff to have a larger sweet spot. But thx for the reply 👍

I don't know that this is true in its hard form like olduser stated. From my feeling there is some overlap between composite and wood blades where say a clipper is stiffer and gives less feedback than an acoustic carbon. And a soft carbon like ML or Waldner senso is even more on the woody spectrum. Then there are definitely the ALC and ZLC blades that feel to me like touching the ball with a frying pan. I mean, no composite blade is going to flex like an appelgren allplay, but neither does your korbel.Maybe consider something like an IF ZLF? Or have hipnotic make you the perfect custom blade to your individual tastes and desires. LOL

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

Actually one important question. At some point, do you guys think I should change to carbon blade? I mean most ppl play with carbon blades, and there has to be gud reason for that right? Also, in the school team that im in, im the only one that uses an all wood blade and I have noticed that i usually have to use a lot of effort to play a finishing point or to get a fast topsin while my team mates dont have to.

Brs · Aug 16, 2022

Yes, I do. See my post above cause we crossed in the mail I think.

OldUser · Aug 16, 2022

Cloud said:
Yes I know, I was talking about wood blades that are a bit stiffer than my korbel but not that stiff to have a larger sweet spot. But thx for the reply 👍

Koto blades, or any harder outer ply kind of all wood blades like ebony or rosewood, some walnut species can be stiff too. I've made that kind of mistake early in my TT journey: I've bought a Donic Persson Powerplay, and it was damn stiff, the new version is also fitted with anti-vibration material, to make it even stiffer because of the P ball.

If you want some flex and something faster, a limba-ayous-anigre blade with a thicker core is the way to go, quite simple: the BTY Falcima, BTY Maze Performance (now named Maze Advance), then you can add a composite ply like glassfiber or Zylon (without carbon) to get a larger sweet spot.

The GOAT for blocks, JO Waldner, used limba-Ayous-Anigre blades with a thick core and more important: the famous egg shape provided tons of flex and indeed larger sweet spot, you need flex for blocking strategies, it's the grip on the handle that does it all: loose grip=slower and shorter block, tight grip=faster and longer.

That's why also the new blades have a way larger head than in the 38mm cell ball era, like the BTY Ovtcharov and Harimoto, the DHS or Yinhe blades, .

latej · Aug 16, 2022

Cloud said:
Actually one important question. At some point, do you guys think I should change to carbon blade? I mean most ppl play with carbon blades, and there has to be gud reason for that right? Also, in the school team that im in, im the only one that uses an all wood blade and I have noticed that i usually have to use a lot of effort to play a finishing point or to get a fast topsin while my team mates dont have to.

Do they play with H3 too?

Imo, H3 pairs well with inner-layer blade. I woudn't be afraid of it.

But which one, someone else should suggest.

If you like to play with H3, I'd go for inner-layer blade.

What happens when you play with T19 on the FH? Like?, dislike?

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

Brs said:
I don't know that this is true in its hard form like olduser stated. From my feeling there is some overlap between composite and wood blades where say a clipper is stiffer and gives less feedback than an acoustic carbon. And a soft carbon like ML or Waldner senso is even more on the woody spectrum. Then there are definitely the ALC and ZLC blades that feel to me like touching the ball with a frying pan. I mean, no composite blade is going to flex like an appelgren allplay, but neither does your korbel.Maybe consider something like an IF ZLF? Or have hipnotic make you the perfect custom blade to your individual tastes and desires. LOL

So a carbon blade like the ma lin soft carbon is more on the woodier spectrum and more flexible than an all wood clipper? Then thats my ans right? I should find a carbon blade thats more on the woody spectrum. Also wat is IF ZLF? Im not really that aware on the newer composites

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

OldUser said:
Koto blades, or any harder outer ply kind of all wood blades like ebony or rosewood, some walnut species can be stiff too. I've made that kind of mistake early in my TT journey: I've bought a Donic Persson Powerplay, and it was damn stiff, the new version is also fitted with anti-vibration material, to make it even stiffer because of the P ball.

If you want some flex and something faster, a limba-ayous-anigre blade with a thicker core is the way to go, quite simple: the BTY Falcima, BTY Maze Performance (now named Maze Advance), then you can add a composite ply like glassfiber or Zylon (without carbon) to get a larger sweet spot.

The GOAT for blocks, JO Waldner, used limba-Ayous-Anigre blades with a thick core and more important: the famous egg shape provided tons of flex and indeed larger sweet spot, you need flex for blocking strategies, it's the grip on the handle that does it all: loose grip=slower and shorter block, tight grip=faster and longer.

That's why also the new blades have a way larger head than in the 38mm cell ball era, like the BTY Ovtcharov and Harimoto, the DHS or Yinhe blades, .

I hv nvr heard of those blades actually, i will check them out.

Cloud · Aug 16, 2022

latej said:
Do they play with H3 too?

Imo, H3 pairs well with inner-layer blade. I woudn't be afraid of it.

But which one, someone else should suggest.

If you like to play with H3, I'd go for inner-layer blade.

What happens when you play with T19 on the FH? Like?, dislike?

Yes abt half of them play with h3 its quite popular in the team. I havnt really experimented that much with playing tenergy 19 on the forehand but i have tried it a couple of times. And most of the time it was not that bad to me but i just felt better and more confident with the h3 on my forehand. I think i just felt that my shot quality and control was better with the h3. I cant tell u for sure wat i think of playing the t19 on the fh becuz i just havnt tried it enough in th fh

Haraold · Aug 16, 2022

wasn´t Waldners Blade made with Norwegian Pine?so Ayous-Pine-Limba at least the 2016 offensive (new Special edition,not the old Banda)

Scarfed Garchomp · Aug 16, 2022

OldUser said:
The GOAT for blocks, JO Waldner, used limba-Ayous-Anigre blades with a thick core

I believe the old brown handle Banda Waldner blades had a similar construction to the Dicon he later used, limba-spruce-ayous. I don't know if he ever used the Waldner Senso yellow handle but the Senso Carbon seems to be based off of it instead of the Dicon. All good blades nonetheless but it was really Waldner who made the blocks and not his bat

hipnotic · Aug 16, 2022

latej said:
https://www.sdcttblades.com/nerdy-stuff/speed

Pls pls pls.

Edit: Sergio, what is your opinion on allowing say 50% composite blade, vs 15% now. Would you enjoy it, or is it meaningless?

I'm sorry to the OP for spamming your post, I'll just answer this one.

I have a lot of stuff to update on the website, I just just haven't had any free time.

I think that would open some doors more in the weight saving department, for example by using a composite core with a honeycomb pattern or even some new light materials capable of substituting wood.

Lookimg for a new blade

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