Training regime for amateurs and senior players

KM1976 · Aug 21, 2022

Hi Folks,
I wonder how many times you would have seen a T.T. instructional video talking about using your legs and waist into a shot and wonder how can I learn that? Especially, if you are senior player and your are not able to move that fast anymore or suffer from body aches in general.
I wish there were some courses, which could help middle aged or senior players who want to play at a competitive level but are looking at alternatives which can help them based on their needs. More often than not, I see that the coaching videos posted online imagine you to be 12 years old who can do all the movements as suggested in the lesson. This is not always the case, in that situation what the alternatives?
Coaches also, sadly consider seniors as cash dispensing machines. They show lofty situations and rosy results without any solid foundation. That is unfortunately, the reality more often than not in most personal lessons.
I wish there were an open discussion which talks about alternative ways of performing the same shot and recovery, tactics, understanding the limitations behind the alternatives and as such approaching the game on more holistic level.
I would like to hear from you guys on how you mitigate such situations and what do you think about it.

Thanks, KM1976

brokenball · Aug 21, 2022

I wish there were some courses, which could help middle aged or senior players who want to play at a competitive level but are looking at alternatives which can help them based on their needs. More often than not, I see that the coaching videos posted online imagine you to be 12 years old who can do all the movements as suggested in the lesson. This is not always the case, in that situation what the alternatives?

I am 69. There is no magic that will help. The best you can do is to try to change the tempo of the game. Looping rallies back from the table is not going to work.

Coaches also, sadly consider seniors as cash dispensing machines. They show lofty situations and rosy results without any solid foundation. That is unfortunately, the reality more often than not in most personal lessons.

Yes, especially if they do a lot of multi ball.

I wish there were an open discussion which talks about alternative ways of performing the same shot and recovery,

The same shot requires the same impulse on the ball. There is no alternative.

tactics, understanding the limitations behind the alternatives and as such approaching the game on more holistic level.

Slow down the game. Keep the ball low. Use more spin.

I would like to hear from you guys on how you mitigate such situations and what do you think about it.

no matter what shape you are in you should note under which situations you lose the most points and avoid those situations. I do this by slowing the game down by keeping the ball low and using placement.
Try to win points as soon as possible to avoid expending energy. This means practicing nasty serves and being as aggressive as possible with serve returns. Block, block a lot. Use the opponent's energy as much as possible.

Play with "frictionless" anti or LP 0X. The problem with this suggestion is that initially you will lose more points by making mistakes than you will win from the anti or LP. There is also a limit to how far you can go. The better opponents will probably know how to play against LP and anti but the mid-level players will not. By the time they figure out how to play against the anti or LP they may have already lost two games. If that is how you want to win then go for it.

Watch Olivier Mader AKA PushBlocker videos. He tries to make the other guy play his game. He uses more concentration than physical energy or skill. He looks to frustrate his opponent.

I have two paddles similar to PushBlocker's which is a Dr Neubauer Firewall+ with Giant Dragon Talon 0X on backhand. The FH has H2 on it which I am going to replace soon. My practice partners have played against me for so long they are anti and LP immune, so I don't play with LP or anti all the time. Often, I get out my TBS or TB ALC with double inverted.

burakins · Aug 21, 2022

Hi, maybe something like in the picture will help you. At least that will help you to do ghost trainings and spin training...

image%202022%2008%2021%20222121012%20png.png

lodro · Aug 22, 2022

brokenball said:
Play with "frictionless" anti or LP 0X.

What style of blade is best used for a combo like this ?
Defensive, attack or allround blade ?

KM1976 · Aug 22, 2022

brokenball said:
I am 69. There is no magic that will help. The best you can do is to try to change the tempo of the game. Looping rallies back from the table is not going to work.

Yes, especially if they do a lot of multi ball.

The same shot requires the same impulse on the ball. There is no alternative.

Slow down the game. Keep the ball low. Use more spin.

no matter what shape you are in you should note under which situations you lose the most points and avoid those situations. I do this by slowing the game down by keeping the ball low and using placement.
Try to win points as soon as possible to avoid expending energy. This means practicing nasty serves and being as aggressive as possible with serve returns. Block, block a lot. Use the opponent's energy as much as possible.

Play with "frictionless" anti or LP 0X. The problem with this suggestion is that initially you will lose more points by making mistakes than you will win from the anti or LP. There is also a limit to how far you can go. The better opponents will probably know how to play against LP and anti but the mid-level players will not. By the time they figure out how to play against the anti or LP they may have already lost two games. If that is how you want to win then go for it.

Watch Olivier Mader AKA PushBlocker videos. He tries to make the other guy play his game. He uses more concentration than physical energy or skill. He looks to frustrate his opponent.

I have two paddles similar to PushBlocker's which is a Dr Neubauer Firewall+ with Giant Dragon Talon 0X on backhand. The FH has H2 on it which I am going to replace soon. My practice partners have played against me for so long they are anti and LP immune, so I don't play with LP or anti all the time. Often, I get out my TBS or TB ALC with double inverted.

Thanks for sharing your tips. I am not sure that what gives an impression that I am searching for a magic potion. Let me clarify, that is not the intent. If you believe that table tennis is called ´chess on the move ´ then there has to be a reason behind that. In my opinion, there would be more than one way to approach the game and strategise accordingly. This is carry forward of your though process. Change of pace and placement are integral part of this approach. The idea with growing age is to play smarter and not harder. I guess we both agree on that. In this post I am trying to gather those tips/ suggestions which can help and serve as an eye opener.

Tony's Table Tennis · Aug 22, 2022

KM1976 said:
Hi Folks,
I wonder how many times you would have seen a T.T. instructional video talking about using your legs and waist into a shot and wonder how can I learn that? Especially, if you are senior player and your are not able to move that fast anymore or suffer from body aches in general.

I think you are talking about non textbook table tennis.
obviously textbook table tennis has been recorded down and past on generations to generation.
And just like anything in life, when you start learning it early in life, you become a pro in it.

For non textbook, you raise a good point - why isn't there much videos out there?

I think for starters, there is too many different styles of play for non textbook. Anything you can think of - if it gets the ball back, or wins you the point, can be used here. Gone are most of the logic of textbook technique. But I agree that it is not wrong, and for the senior player, getting the ball back should be the main concern.

So other than too many style is also such "senior" are not youtubers. You won't find a 80 year old coming to teach 60 year old or 70 year old some elderly moves. Or would they record they match, and upload it to the internet.

I have seen many weird and wonderful styles and can say, many of the say USATT2200 players could have difficulties winning against a senior that plays non textbook.

So, it comes back to too many different styles - this is maybe because one person might have a bad knee, the other a bad wrist, the other bad ankle. There is so many possibilities of limitations in the player, that would blossom up a "new style".
so how does one person make videos for everything out there?

I would say, if textbook style is 100 episodes of 30 mins each, for example. non textbook would be more than 1000 episodes.

The definition of style is very vast, and I am referring to all kinds that can be out there.

lodro · Aug 22, 2022

KM1976 said:
Thanks for sharing your tips. I am not sure that what gives an impression that I am searching for a magic potion. Let me clarify, that is not the intent. If you believe that table tennis is called ´chess on the move ´ then there has to be a reason behind that. In my opinion, there would be more than one way to approach the game and strategise accordingly. This is carry forward of your though process. Change of pace and placement are integral part of this approach. The idea with growing age is to play smarter and not harder. I guess we both agree on that. In this post I am trying to gather those tips/ suggestions which can help and serve as an eye opener.

Well, I sure do not have the magic bullet or potion. 😁
I am over seventy , played a little decades ago and started playing again 5 years ago. I call myself a mediocre player.
You likely know all the little tricks I know and more, like be as awkward as possible with your serves. Try to "kill" on the 3rd or 5th shot.etc.
But i think the most important advise might be to not take it too seriously . Just look at TT as a regular exercise for both your body
and your brain, keep as fit as you can and have fun.

Dominikk85 · Aug 22, 2022

Of Course at an older age your body can't do as much anymore but depending on your health you might not be able to bend your knees all the way but still maybe a little bit of hip and trunk rotation into your shot which is better than just arming it.

You also could try to become a short pips blocker/hitter. Many guys who have success at an older age seem to have that style, he zhi wen and ni xialiang both were top 100 in the world at over 50, that style probably means you don't have to bend your knees as much to loop the ball because you can just stay higher and smash the ball.

Maybe you can hit like this
https://youtu.be/YsI1susSrlg
If you can't do a full loop?

Tony's Table Tennis · Aug 22, 2022

Dominikk85 said:
Of Course at an older age your body can't do as much anymore but depending on your health you might not be able to bend your knees all the way but still maybe a little bit of hip and trunk rotation into your shot which is better than just arming it.

You also could try to become a short pips blocker/hitter. Many guys who have success at an older age seem to have that style, he zhi wen and ni xialiang both were top 100 in the world at over 50, that style probably means you don't have to bend your knees as much to loop the ball because you can just stay higher and smash the ball.

Maybe you can hit like this
https://youtu.be/YsI1susSrlg
If you can't do a full loop?

Not sure if He and Ni and shortpip context here is the best example

Both are SP players and top in the world already in their youths...
As they aged, they just adjusted to slower styles/smart TT styles, to keep up with younger players.
And that is why it is working for them. It is them working, not the pips strictly speaking.

What you are saying is like getting Waldner to come back into the game but to use short pips, because he is older now and he will be a better player with SP than inverted?
I think He and Ni who has been using it since kids, will have the upper hand in SP than Waldner or maybe another other former world top 10/20 player and not a GOAT inverted player.

However, I understand your intention. You are thinking of using pips to slow down the game.
But if you are used to inverted top spin brushing, it is quite a big change to go short pip hitting.
Bending the knee or not, weight transfer or not with a bad knee, is not something I am trained for (yet).

vossi39 · Aug 22, 2022

For me it turned out, that I needed to do extra work for fitness and muscle mass in order to keep my level. In earlier days it was enough to just do regular practice and drills to keep the required muscle mass, which in the end determines your speed and timing. With now being over 50, muscles mass is lost even if I keep my training sessions the same.
So I started with extra workouts outside the practice hall. The difference is visible on the table, be quicker on my feet and having enough fitness to really practice 1 1/2h to 2h without declining performance.

When it comes to technique, I believe that this is something that still can be learned and mastered even at a higher age. I never had a decent back hand and used pivoting a lot. But this is a very energy hungry game style and not sustainable becoming older. So I started to learn an practice my backhand and can now integrate it into my game safely. It took a bit longer, but is possible.

Brs · Aug 22, 2022

If your body can't do something it just can't. There is no alternative way to move and play strokes that is more efficient, or else young players would already be doing it. Can you get into good enough physical condition to play like the kids? Vossi39's idea is great since you clearly want to play that way. If you can't then forget about that style.

Thinking about stuff you can't do is not very useful. So instead think about what you could do.

The number one alternative for seniors is probably playing closer to the table. The closer you are the less distance you have to cover, and the less important your legs are to shot quality. There isn't enough time or table to use big powerful strokes from close anyway. You can do it with long pips as a blocker like brokenball suggested, or short pips hitting per Dominikk85. Although using LP or anti will help you to limit the speed to a level you can manage, SP is challenging in that way.

But you can equally well play close to the table with double inverted. Playing close with inverted requires extra good reflexes and a lot of feeling. But you could get one of those systems of lights to train and improve your hand-eye coordination. Here is a highlights video of two pros doing it to perfection. https://youtu.be/00clUJLyd9o

You won't find many Youtube tutorials on how to play this way because it is not the dominant men's style of pro play. The fact that pro men's table tennis is completely irrelevant as a model for anyone starting as an adult has no effect on what gets views and likes on YT. Everyone thinks they should have ML's forehand and ZJK's backhand even though neither of those guys could have the other one's stronger shot.

Because the worth of online training is minimal you will need a coach. Like every other job in the world most table tennis coaches are average. Some are worse than average and some are better. You need to find one who takes pride in improving all of their players, even older ones who have limited potential. Some coaches tell older students to do impossible things and then just shake their heads when we don't. You need someone a little bit creative with whom you can develop a game that is physically possible for you and still fun. Fun is very important.

lodro · Aug 22, 2022

vossi39 said:
For me it turned out, that I needed to do extra work for fitness and muscle mass in order to keep my level. In earlier days it was enough to just do regular practice and drills to keep the required muscle mass, which in the end determines your speed and timing. With now being over 50, muscles mass is lost even if I keep my training sessions the same.
So I started with extra workouts outside the practice hall. The difference is visible on the table, be quicker on my feet and having enough fitness to really practice 1 1/2h to 2h without declining performance.

When it comes to technique, I believe that this is something that still can be learned and mastered even at a higher age. I never had a decent back hand and used pivoting a lot. But this is a very energy hungry game style and not sustainable becoming older. So I started to learn an practice my backhand and can now integrate it into my game safely. It took a bit longer, but is possible.

Most of us men never give any thought to what happens to our bodies as we get older.
One aspect will have to be considered : As we get older things are changing in our hormone department.
Growth hormone production becomes less and of course so does testosterone. These two hormones
are of vital importance for building muscle.
Another important aspect is nutrition.but i wont go into that because I haven't figured it out yet. and never will. 😁

Everything re rubbers ant techniques has been said here in this thread.

Tony's Table Tennis · Aug 23, 2022

Even though I have not coached veterans.
I have been involved with Para and wheelchair players (very little though compared to able bodied juniors, but do know seasonal coaches that do and do see their videos often)

I think coaching a veteran, is really based on the player. Very difficult to generalize.
If I was tasked for one, I guess I could adapt and find a way to allow the player to improve and learn as I go along.

I also think it is depending on how serious the player wants to take it.
For health or for competition, or for both. Some veterans are over serious on winning, and maybe that is not good for the health too lol.

OldUser · Aug 23, 2022

That's what I told Tony when he posted videos about "textbook" table tennis footwork, with cross over fh and BH patterns, this is definitely not for 40+/50+ senior aged amateur players.

Now that being said, can you get back flexibility in your legs and hips/waist back after 50? Yes I think you can, I'm currently in that process, but it requires way more dedication and way more time everyday for stretching and muscle reinforcement exercises. In my case I've been dealing with what I thought was Osgood Schlatter condition in my left knee at the beginning of the year, and after some research and coming back and forth to some physicians, it appears that... I'm just dealing with arthrosis, like many of us senior players.

So before my training regime at home, I've been doing 2 months of specific stretching and muscle reinforcement exercises. Now I'm back to jump rope, to my pleasure because I love that ! without feeling any pain anymore, and I have to stretch my leg and hips muscle more before feeling something, means that i've got way more flexibility and elasticity then 2 months before. I've lost some couple of pounds too, obviously, cos' it always helps, and more important: what we eat will have an impact on our joints.

I'm back to a a healthy vegan calorie deficit/controled diet: no rice, pasta, bread, or any honey or sugar meals anymore, only a carbohydrate refeed once a week cos' it helps for fat loss (tricking the leptin levels, body builders will understand what I'm talking about) with organic whole grain rice all day. I'm also using amino acids as BCAA 2:1:1 while training, and vegan protein powders right after the training sessions to help my muscles, tendons, joints to recover (and also to prevent cravings hahaha).

For awareness and reflexes, there's nothing better than cafeine ;-) not more than 0.5L coffee a day though, and of course not too late in the day.

I'm in really excellent form these days and enjoy doing intense weightlifting and cardio again 🤗

Training regime for amateurs and senior players

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Similar threads