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  1. Gozo is offline
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    #1

    Tactics ( Asian vs Euro )

    OK here goes, let me be the first to start a trend to talk something more engaging ( hopefully ) that is not focus on equipment.

    I got this observation while following the WTT Muscat, Oman event and I'd notice there are two very distinct tactics at play there, generalization not withstanding:

    1. I noticed that the Euro men players loves to immediately push long / deep ( 2nd or 3rd ball ) to the BH side of the opponent and the hope that the opponent will either open up to start the topspin to topspin rally mid / far distance or if the opponent pushes long, he will open up with a strong FH power-loop to start the topspin to topspin rally until one of them gets the point.

    2. On the other hand, the Asian players loves to serve short and will keep the receive short and tight to force the opponent to make a mistake near the net or force them to pop the ball up and they will immediately kill the ball with fast short explosive stroke such as flicks ( BH / FH ) or over the table FH loop kill.

    This is my own observation. Do coaches notice this? Let's start a conversation on tactics with this as a starting point.

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    Last edited by Gozo; 09-10-2022 at 03:38 PM.

  2. Dominikk85 is offline
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    #2
    Yeah I think generally chinese players want
    To serve short and never push long so they can attack first.

  3. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dominikk85
    Yeah I think generally chinese players want
    To serve short and never push long so they can attack first.

    But they can attack short balls too, or even medium short balls, doesn't even need to be medium long.
    In fact, talking strategy, some times it is better to push the ball long and start into a attack-counter attack game play.
    There is never a right or wrong or who uses what. In a match, you could have all of the above strategies being used.

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    #4
    Maybe more specificity would help? Here is a men's match between a Chinese and a Eurmerican. Jha came back from 0 - 2, including a real beatdown game one. https://youtu.be/aigErWXg6ZY

    Why was Jha losing at first? What did Jha change to come back? Did Liu try anything different to react to Jha's new tactic? Why didn't that work?

    Or did Liu and Jha basically just play their usual games throughout the match, and one's level went up a little and the other's down, without any major change of tactics?

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  5. burakins is offline
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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Brs
    Maybe more specificity would help? Here is a men's match between a Chinese and a Eurmerican. Jha came back from 0 - 2, including a real beatdown game one. https://youtu.be/aigErWXg6ZY

    Why was Jha losing at first? What did Jha change to come back? Did Liu try anything different to react to Jha's new tactic? Why didn't that work?

    Or did Liu and Jha basically just play their usual games throughout the match, and one's level went up a little and the other's down, without any major change of tactics?
    I watched the game. Actually Jha played in the borders of safeline first. Then he took risks and took points. Imo Asian players do not think to play safe generally. They play their game except MaLong. He always adapts his game to other players' games.
    Happy with my setup

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    FH: XIOM OMEGA VII Euro (max) black
    Blade: XIOM Hugo CALDERANO HAL -FL

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  6. ricospin is offline
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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by burakins
    I watched the game. Actually Jha played in the borders of safeline first. Then he took risks and took points. Imo Asian players do not think to play safe generally. They play their game except MaLong. He always adapts his game to other players' games.

    I feel like most pro's will adapt their style to a certain degree.


  7. Lycanthrope is offline
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    #7
    No 2 is typically how a FH oriented player plays.

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    #8
    We have to separate top quality players to any others, even among Chinese themselves, we can't say that all 15 Chinese players are the same, only 3-4 will shine, then one can shine like once lifetime and back to disappear, so it is not about tactics or anything, they all trained for all kind of playing styles and tactics, and during those official games they have to be strong mentally and stay in focus, luck also can do a job, i can't say that Timo Boll lack of tactics when he lose to Chinese players even those who are younger than him or less years of experiences.

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    #9

    Asians usually start with short side/sideunder serves and loop/play close to the table. When they back up, usually they are forced to. Because in mid distance loop to loop rallies, euro players have more power. As for tactics, european players usually start their points with a sidespin serve as its harder to serve spinny with euro rubbers/control.


  10. Gozo is offline
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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by matt243385

    Asians usually start with short side/sideunder serves and loop/play close to the table. When they back up, usually they are forced to. Because in mid distance loop to loop rallies, euro players have more power. As for tactics, european players usually start their points with a sidespin serve as its harder to serve spinny with euro rubbers/control.

    It has to do with the equipment as well right? Chinese players prefer sticky rubber that favours control on the short inside the table play whereas Euro players prefer strong trampoline effect rubber for out of table play for speed and power looping game. Is my generalization correct?

    Right now, after EJ'ing for so long I am very happy to settle for Tibhar's MX-P as my de-facto FH rubber. I really really love the speedy rebound and strong trampoline effect it offers.

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    #11
    It is all about the training and physical bodies maybe more than equipment, and still not answered what do you mean by Asian, because i mentioned that we have to define or determine who we are talking about, Chinese players are dominating for long time, very often to see them lose, talking about top of the top, Ma Long, Fan Zhengdong, Zhang Jike and Xu Xin, i even consider Ma Lin and Wang Hao among the best toughest, those can smash any opponent if they are on prime, so styles and tactics isn't enough, last World Championship i saw of FZD against Truls summed all what i have in mind.

    Ma Long moved from one equipment to another throughout the years, and he was getting better and better, and now he is almost retired and not motivated much, FZD will take the heir or LGY who knows, Chinese sounds just a return machines, straight forward more than being so tactical to my eyes, but i just enjoy watching all playing no matter what.

  12. matt243385 is offline
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    #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    It has to do with the equipment as well right? Chinese players prefer sticky rubber that favours control on the short inside the table play whereas Euro players prefer strong trampoline effect rubber for out of table play for speed and power looping game. Is my generalization correct?

    Right now, after EJ'ing for so long I am very happy to settle for Tibhar's MX-P as my de-facto FH rubber. I really really love the speedy rebound and strong trampoline effect it offers.

    Yes, thats why many asains even ma long lose the first set to many euro players. But after some adjustments, they might start playing a more controlled game, playing short, and the euro player won't be able to use their power as much.


  13. Gozo is offline
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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by matt243385

    Yes, thats why many asains even ma long lose the first set to many euro players. But after some adjustments, they might start playing a more controlled game, playing short, and the euro player won't be able to use their power as much.

    Yes! Yes! Yes! I am often a victim of these tricky soft Asian style return. Hulk Smash is difficult when faced these soft return.

  14. Hoàng Chinh Trump is offline
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    #14
    I think you should visit zhihu, translate from English to Chinese what you want to ask then search, all you need about table tennis lol

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    Yes! Yes! Yes! I am often a victim of these tricky soft Asian style return. Hulk Smash is difficult when faced these soft return.

    Trying serving long more, but mix in short serves as well so they don't feel confident enough to step around. Remember, when you serve short in this case, its to break their rythm, not to attack because serving short constantly would be playing right into their strengths.

    Edit: try to make your short serves 2 bounces, as close to the white line as possible. If it drifts long a little, that is fine because these balls are super awkward to loop. Why 2 bounces instead of a extremely short ghost serve? 1. It causes hesitation and may cause the opponent to pop the ball up. 2.its harder to flick this type of serve. 3.creates attacking opportunities if you can control your serve spinny/no spin using the same motion.

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    Last edited by matt243385; 09-13-2022 at 07:19 PM.

  16. IB66 is offline
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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    It has to do with the equipment as well right? Chinese players prefer sticky rubber that favours control on the short inside the table play whereas Euro players prefer strong trampoline effect rubber for out of table play for speed and power looping game. Is my generalization correct?

    Right now, after EJ'ing for so long I am very happy to settle for Tibhar's MX-P as my de-facto FH rubber. I really really love the speedy rebound and strong trampoline effect it offers.
    For a long time it was H3 FH, T05 BH for a lot of players, one bouncy one not!!!! One tacky one not!!!
    They didn’t twiddle to keep the tacky rubber in play on both FH and BH for short game touch play.
    They twiddled to bring T05 into play on the FH when trying to kill off a rally after forcing the opponent back, away from the table defensively lobbing. T05 is better (faster) for flatter hits and smashes.

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  17. Gozo is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by matt243385

    Trying serving long more, but mix in short serves as well so they don't feel confident enough to step around. Remember, when you serve short in this case, its to break their rythm, not to attack because serving short constantly would be playing right into their strengths.

    Edit: try to make your short serves 2 bounces, as close to the white line as possible. If it drifts long a little, that is fine because these balls are super awkward to loop. Why 2 bounces instead of a extremely short ghost serve? 1. It causes hesitation and may cause the opponent to pop the ball up. 2.its harder to flick this type of serve. 3.creates attacking opportunities if you can control your serve spinny/no spin using the same motion.

    Thanks Matt. I'd recalled it was NDH who made this similar suggestion to my tactics some time ago. Yes, I have been using more long serves in my game with mixed result. I understand that this type of serve is compatible for my play style, seeking a quick 3rd ball attack to quickly to wrest an easy point from my opponent or another advantage with this long serve is to enable me initiate a loop-to-loop rally exchange which I am happy to work with. Unfortunately I am not getting higher percentage win with this tactic mainly due to my own weakness / slow in preparing for the 3rd ball attack. It is still work-in-progress for me. Nonetheless I am happy that my percentage is improving.


  18. matt243385 is offline
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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Gozo
    Thanks Matt. I'd recalled it was NDH who made this similar suggestion to my tactics some time ago. Yes, I have been using more long serves in my game with mixed result. I understand that this type of serve is compatible for my play style, seeking a quick 3rd ball attack to quickly to wrest an easy point from my opponent or another advantage with this long serve is to enable me initiate a loop-to-loop rally exchange which I am happy to work with. Unfortunately I am not getting higher percentage win with this tactic mainly due to my own weakness / slow in preparing for the 3rd ball attack. It is still work-in-progress for me. Nonetheless I am happy that my percentage is improving.

    Do you feel surprised when the opponent chops long? Kind of like you are never ready for it? One thing my coach tells me is to serve with the intention to loop instead of chop, it helps you find the ball for a 3rd ball attack. Really, your chop should really be a last resort and you should loop all long balls.

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  19. pingpongpaddy is offline
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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by matt243385

    Asians usually start with short side/sideunder serves and loop/play close to the table. When they back up, usually they are forced to. Because in mid distance loop to loop rallies, euro players have more power. As for tactics, european players usually start their points with a sidespin serve as its harder to serve spinny with euro rubbers/control.

    thats interesting

    How did you find this out?

    ppp

    bh
    spinpips chop2
    yinhe ayous wood 1 ply
    fh
    max moristo sp

  20. matt243385 is offline
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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by pingpongpaddy

    thats interesting

    How did you find this out?

    Its noticeable when you watch them play, and my coach is a former taiwan national team player. He has a lot of experience


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