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  1. SofaChamp is offline
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    #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    What is GD?

    Giant Dragon. For some reason Igor frequently promotes this brand and claims they make the best value for money rubbers.

    Just came across this offering here https://thorntonstabletennis.co.uk/p...p-energy-hard/ , have never seen a more blatant attempt at suggesting a rubber plays like Tenergy, would be very interested to see how it actually plays.


  2. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SofaChamp

    Giant Dragon. For some reason Igor frequently promotes this brand and claims they make the best value for money rubbers.

    Just came across this offering here https://thorntonstabletennis.co.uk/p...p-energy-hard/ , have never seen a more blatant attempt at suggesting a rubber plays like Tenergy, would be very interested to see how it actually plays.

    lol. its a funny attempt. But I'm admittedly curious about this brand now.

    Has anybody tried Topenergy rubber or any other Giant Dragon rubbers? Are they actually good?


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    #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    But from what ive seen, their rubbers are just as good as esn. Why arent they more popular?
    Shortly after the speed glue ban the Japanese technology wasn´t up to par with what ESN had to offer in terms of bounciness or "speed glue feeling". Even Butterfly struggled with a few concepts before tenergy05. Stiga had their Boost and Calibra rubbers, but after that faced some serious quality issues. At least over here only few people were ever interested in Mantra rubbers because they considered Calibra Tour and Airoc such failures. Another highly expected rubber which never matched the quality of the pre-series: Nianmor by Tibhar. Other big names like Yasaka and Nittaku didn´t have much to offer, either. If you take a look at other portfolios, Made in Japan mostly goes for classics (Speedy Spin) or more exotic rubbers (if they haven´t been discontinued). Now, with nearly everyone in the business having rubbers manufactured in Germany, Japanese rubbers slowly come back, but it´s very difficult for Nexy - to give one example - to sell 50 Euro Etika rubbers, no matter how good they are. The new Hammond rubber comes at 65 Euro, and I am not sure who the customers for that are, as of course the name recalls memories, but so many people have settled for ESN rubbers meanwhile.

    At least for Germany, I think it will be a long way for any Japan-made rubber to gain substantial market share, competing with all the well established other products.

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    #24
    I’d say the Fastarcs deserve a mention.

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    #25
    All Fastarcs are ESN Products and Tensor...

  6. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #26
    I tried the Nexy Etika today. Actually its a very good rubber. As much catapult as a normal ESN rubber. I only played a few minutes, but I wouldn't notice any downside to playing with this rubber compared to ESN rubbers.

    I wish there was a bit more variety out there instead of only ESN and BTY. But it appears that ESN will dominate the non-BTY market for some time to come.

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    #27
    My experience with the Mantras is that they were good rubbers out of the box (the M version was a very good substitute to T05!) but the durability was very very poor.

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    #28
    Expert choice
    Stiga Airoc. COS tensor sponge.

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    #29
    Quote Originally Posted by kapahoo
    My experience with the Mantras is that they were good rubbers out of the box (the M version was a very good substitute to T05!) but the durability was very very poor.

    i had Mantra M and i can say that the topsheet becomes slick quickly compared to ur average ESN rubber

    but maybe i got a lemon out of the supply i brought from


  10. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #30
    Today I tried somebody's Stiga Calibra LT. On the same blade was also Xiom Omega IV, so it was convenient to compare the non-ESN rubber to a ESN rubber.

    I thought both rubbers were excellent, but I think quite clearly the Calibra was faster and had more kick and bite on the ball. It seems like it grips the ball better too.

    So to me, Calibra is an awesome rubber despite being non-ESN. In fact, I think it is better than their very own ESN-made DNA series. So I still don't really know why ESN totally dominates the non-BTY market today. Is Calibra a Daiki rubber? These Japanese made rubbers seem to be excellent.
    Last edited by Michael Zhuang; 09-24-2022 at 03:26 AM.

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    #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Today I tried somebody's Stiga Calibra LT. On the same blade was also Xiom Omega IV, so it was convenient to compare the non-ESN rubber to a ESN rubber.

    I thought both rubbers were excellent, but I think quite clearly the Calibra was faster and had more kick and bite on the ball. It seems like it grips the ball better too.

    So to me, Calibra is an awesome rubber despite being non-ESN. In fact, I think it is better than their very own ESN-made DNA series. So I still don't really know why ESN totally dominates the non-BTY market today. Is Calibra a Daiki rubber? These Japanese made rubbers seem to be excellent.

    There is nothing wrong at all with Daiki rubbers, they are very good. After the speed glue ban I used a lot of Stiga rubbers. Calibra, Airoc, Mantra, probably even Boost too if I remember correctly. They were all fine and they don't rely on factory boost or any boost to make them work, so they perform very similarly during their lifespan.
    That being said, I don't remember which rubber it was, either Calibra, or Airoc Astro sound, where I used the red on my forahand side and the ball made the rubber tear. Like hitting (driving) the ball too hard made the topsheet rubber have "micro" tears. I had to twiddle and use the red sheet on backhand where I never had this issue ofc, and the black one was fine on my forehand.

    I also remember using before Almana and the pair I got when they were released were really good, but then I got another pair and they were quite dull and not so pleasant to use. So I think Daiki rubbers had some consistency issues, not sure if they still have.
    It's very surprising too since Japanese are notoriously famous for consistency so not sure what was going on with them.


  12. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #32
    Actually even the Calibra rubber that I was testing had 2 small tears on the surface of the rubber. I don't know if that is consistently a problem with Daiki.

    Does anybody know why Stiga moved away from Daiki in favor of ESN? I would love to see more Daiki rubbers.

    In fact, why doesn't DHS acquire Daiki or Sumitomo and start manufacturing awesome tension rubbers under their own brand.

    It doesn't seem like Sumitomo is doing that much business outside of Mizuno. There seems to be a lot of mutual benefit to a merger.

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    #33
    Come on man, for 100% it's for profit. I do not see into the books but ESN floods everyone with rubbers. I cannot belive the cost of a Ryzen CMD, MSRP around 37EUR and K3 MSRP around 60EUR is anywhere meeting reality. I can't see how K3 costs 70-80% more made in the same factory with slightly different material and slightly different process.
    I'm sure German labor costs and energy costs are not low, but Daiki, BTY and Sumitomo... Like I'm not very educated (and I could google it if I wanted to) about the location of the ESN factory, nor the Daiki factory nor the Sumitomo one. Tamasu, which is the BTY factory is in Tokyo and I would assume labor costs, industrial tax, energy prices etc etc are super freaking high there. So there's one thing people should consider about high Tenergy and Dignics prices. And I'm not even considering that do you think BTY is giving their many sponsored players rubbers for free? Bullshit. You and me pay for it every time we buy a sheet of Tenergy and Dignics. We sponsor FZD, Harimoto etc etc.

    I'm sure Daiki and Sumitomo faces similar "problems" which is why they are not contracted that much by others. Since all their additional costs just pile up too high.

    Like honestly I would not be surprised that the cost of making a sheet of Tenergy would be like 5USD and everything else is what I mentioned plus maybe some R&D and tooling costs.

    Regarding DHS you have a point in contracting these companies. Acquireing Sumitomo is kinda lol, since Sumitomo is a huge automotive supplier, maybe they would aqcure DHS if they wanted but whatever. They surely could and could tap into Daiki and Sumitomo's IP, and Sumitomo's rubber IP should be pretty freaking huge.
    I remember reading probably on MyTT that Oscar at Nexy was actually contacted by Lining (major shareholder in DHS), that they wanna develop a rubber in Japan. But that whole deal fell flat on its tits due to covid or who knows what but the end result is the Etika rubber at Nexy.

    I would love to see more Sumitomo rubbers be it Mizuno or any other brand. I used Mizuno Q5 last year, it is one of the most lovely rubber out there. I would take it over Tenergy 05 any day. 2 small issues, heavy, 52-3g cut, and for me it bubbled up in 2 months. Now for 2 moths life it's pretty darn expensive but if it lasted for 6 months at least I would be still rocking it. It's super nice to use, very forgiving, technical, fast, spinny, it truly has everything except lightness and durability. (unless my sheet was faulty)

  14. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #34
    Lining could easily acquire Daiki or Sumitomo rubber IP and then they could start making their own rubbers. Lining acquired Kason for their badminton racquets and then broke into the badminton market from a standing start.

    Or why doesn't Lining startup a factory in China with Daiki technology to lower the costs. But I still think DHS is the most logical acquirer.

  15. Zwill is offline
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    #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Zhuang
    Lining could easily acquire Daiki or Sumitomo rubber IP and then they could start making their own rubbers. Lining acquired Kason for their badminton racquets and then broke into the badminton market from a standing start.

    Or why doesn't Lining startup a factory in China with Daiki technology to lower the costs. But I still think DHS is the most logical acquirer.

    Why in the hell would Sumotomo sell any of their IP that they not only use in table tennis to Lining? You know companies, and especially automotive companies tend to keep all their IP really close. For Sumitomo the Mizuno joint venture is most likely just a fun project.
    No way in hell they would even expose their IP to Mizuno let alone to Lining.

    I wonder why doesn't BTY doesn't move their rubber factory to China too. I'm sure if they give the proper process and equipment the Chinese could also make Tenergy perfectly. But then again if you knew something no one else knew and what makes you a ton of money would you give it out?
    I know I wouldn't.


  16. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #36
    Table tennis rubber making process probably isn't high on Sumitomo's priorities. As I said, they don't seem to have a lot of customers. Selling to DHS or LiNing would instantly create a much larger pool of customers.

  17. Michael Zhuang is offline
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    #37
    The guy who let me test his Stiga Calibra rubber ended up trading it to me.

    After doing a little research, apparently this rubber was even before Mantra. Is the Mantra series meant to replace the Calibra series? I felt Calibra was one of the most dynamic and fun to play rubbers I have ever tried. I feel its on par with Dignics or MXP or other popular rubbers.

    If Mantra and Mantra Pro are considered even more advanced rubbers from Daiki, then they must be really amazing rubbers. Because Calibra is already excellent to me.

    Why aren't these Daiki rubbers getting more recognition? They are really fun to use, including the Hammond Z2.

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