Talking big.

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Maybe you can be Galileo Galilei and wake up the table tennis world from medival age of knowing nothing:).

But make sure the inquisition doesn't get you and burns you at stake:)
 
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It is interesting. BrokenBall seems to be presenting that when his username was PNachtwey, Dan banned him because of something about dwell time. In fact, when PNachtwey was banned, it was because of how many people on the forum he had insulted. Dan did not care at all whether BrokenBall was correct or incorrect. Dan was concerned about how he was behaving, bullying people, arguing with people.

I know, I have written this to him in PMs dozens of times. Somehow, a few months later he comes back to the idea that Dan did not like his explanation of dwell time. Dan did not like how many people he aggressively argued with, Dan did not like how many people he insulted.

I have a feeling the same is true with the moderators of Ooak Forum and MyTT.

I personally am pretty confident BrokenBall knows what he is talking about when it comes to physics and engineering. I also think he has some cool videos that show rebound speed of a ball off a blade face and the resulting flex of the blade in super slow motion. And some other cool videos that show some physics principles as they apply to table tennis. But none of this gives him the right to be as rude to people as he consistently is.

I also think it is entertaining that BrokenBall associates the Dunning Krugger comments to his knowledge of physics and engineering. I would be willing to bet money on it that the people who made those comments about him were not talking about his theoretical and practical understandings of physics. Rather they are using the term in referring to BrokenBall's TT skills perceived and actual. I don't think it is such a nice thing to say. But I do see that BrokenBall has a way of getting under certain people's skin. He works hard at that.

And I think that is unfortunate. Because I think BrokenBall could have a lot to offer to the forum if he knew how to converse and relate to people and had an interest in helping people understand some of the things he talks about. But the problem seems to be that BrokenBall is more interested in battering people over the head with the idea that THEY ARE WRONG and he is much more interested in that than in showing that HE IS RIGHT, even though that is the thing he seems second most interested in from my observations.

One of the troubles with this is, he often is correct. But he often also has not understood what the person he is arguing with actually meant or even what they said. So, he often is arguing with something that was not even presented.

And over the past few weeks, BrokenBall has seemed more and more irrational and agitated.

And since, what we have here is a 69 year old man acting like a child throwing a temper tantrum I think I am going to give BrokenBall a 3 month break from TTDaily and we will see how things go when that break is over.

One more thing:


... all in all this is hurting Carl the most.
sorry, why does it hurt Carl ?

Because Der_Echte actually knows how hard I have worked over the past 5+ years (since PNachtwey joined as BrokenBall), to keep him from getting banned from the forum.

That is right, I actually think he has something valuable to add to the forum. I just wish he behaved better.

 
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Sometimes people will go overboard and forget in the bigger scheme of things, table-tennis is just a sport / game / hobby.
aaafacb036a30946abd629c96b58f2b1%20cinema%20movies%20movie%20film%201%20jpg.jpeg


p/s btw, no matter what BB says, I am sticking with Butterfly's Tenergy. Give me Tenergy or give me death! Or as in French, " liberté ou donne-moi la mort! " - Confession of a closet Butterfly fanboi
 
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I wish BB was more polite.
I think he is trying to stir us up from our apathy
I do find him interesting on most technical issues though I disagree occasionally:

Thiicker sponges can be faster- thiis was explained to me regarding Mark V many years ago with the reason given that the sponge contained an inert gas in the bubbles which tended to leak away noticeably over the first couple of weeks of practice. This seemed to align with my practical experience with 1.5 Mark v on Bh and 2.0 on fh.
I havent investigated for instance sponge on anti-loop rubber as to whether thicker sponges dampen speed with anti so my mind is open to that possibility.
also cheaper rubbers seem to have a very dead yellow sponge which might well dampen wit increased thickness.

However I firmly believe the forum is a much more interesting place with strong voices to challenge our complacency.
One of the prices of freedom of speech is to experience a few uncomfortable challenges from time to time.
When I was mod on DTTW more than ten years ago the Flame wars there and on MYTT OOAK were exhausting and time wasting for the mods and also. rarely made useful points,
BB on the other hand is sincerely (but rudely) making genuine points.
what is a forum worth that tries to stop that?


People have either FORGOTTEN... OR... never got it that Paddy was big time contributing important to the TT forums for YEARS before many people started to talk on TT forums. Reasonable throughout chaos he was and always is. Can articulate without offensive intent, although he wouldn't lose sleep if he offended someone by saying truthful things.

 
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Sometimes people will go overboard and forget in the bigger scheme of things, table-tennis is just a sport / game / hobby.
aaafacb036a30946abd629c96b58f2b1%20cinema%20movies%20movie%20film%201%20jpg.jpeg


p/s btw, no matter what BB says, I am sticking with Butterfly's Tenergy. Give me Tenergy or give me death! Or as in French, " liberté ou donne-moi la mort! " - Confession of a closet Butterfly fanboi
Gozo will go on to play Tenergy until the day his wallet suffocated him with a pillow…

 
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USDC, so how do we educate the masses?

I decided I wanted to answer this question because the answer is simple and, to me, it seems obvious:


You simply present the information and the people who do the work and understand it will. But you can't force people to understand stuff or even try to. Not everyone will understand the information. All you can do is put it out there and let the people who want to do the work and try to understand have the opportunity.


But when you ridicule and antagonize people, no matter how good the underlying information may be, most people are just going to write you off and not pay attention to what you are saying.

 
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Two details that are based some of the good information BrokenBall has presented:

1) There are a few people on this thread that have presented that thicker sponge is faster. I think the issue is complicated. But one time, years ago, as PNachtwey, BrokenBall presented video of a robot sending balls at 2 rackets. The speed and spin settings on the robot were the same for both rackets. The wood was the same. The only difference was that one racket had Max Thickness sponge and the other had 1.9 thickness sponge of the same make (the thinner sponge could have been 1.7). The rubbers were the same make. The only difference was the sponge. I believe the rubber used in the test was one of the Tenergy rubbers but it was so long ago, I can't really remember.

Each racket was clamped in the same position. and from the video footage, you could see, in that scenario of blocking (direct contact) the thinner sponge was faster.

I am not really sure if my assumptions are correct or not but I think thicker sponge does two things: a) it gives you a bigger window for spinning the ball because you have to compress more sponge to bottom out the sponge. That also results in the fact that, if you are spinning the ball, YOU CAN SWING HARDER with the thicker sponge because you can compress the sponge more. So, when spinning the ball, you can spin more and hit harder with thicker sponge. But in direct contact, thinner sponge will be faster.

I am not sure if that information is true of not. But, based on the video demonstration, I think it is complicated to simply say that thicker sponge is faster. And if any of you has seen or played with a decently high level hardbat player.....there is no way a smash with sponge will go as fast as a smash from a good hardbat player who knows how to smash the ball.

2) Dwell time......if you timed the full duration of time where the racket is moving forward on a big FH stroke, from backswing to followthrough, the length of time, from a good player is really pretty short. Is it 1 second, 1.2 seconds.....I doubt it is much more than that if the player has a good FH. If in that one second, the racket moves about 4 feet from backswing to followthrough and the ball is on the blade face for about 1cm (aproximately 0.4 inches) for dwell time that is quite long, would that be more than a microsecond? There is no way that dwell time can be more than a couple of microseconds on a good stroke. And as Baal has explained many times, our nervous system is not wired to read impulses that quickly. So, whatever we actually feel when we think we are feeling dwell time must be something else because dwell time does not last for a long enough duration for us to actually feel it.

It is possible that what people are feeling when they refer to dwell time is vibrations in the wood from the impact. But you are not actually feeling dwell time.

So, again, BrokenBall does present some very valuable information. And I do wish he would just present the information and not use it to try and antagonize people.
 
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i decided i wanted to answer this question because the answer is simple and, to me, it seems obvious:


you simply present the information and the people who do the work and understand it will. But you can't force people to understand stuff or even try to. Not everyone will understand the information. All you can do is put it out there and let the people who want to do the work and try to understand have the opportunity.


but when you ridicule and antagonize people, no matter how good the underlying information may be, most people are just going to write you off and not pay attention to what you are saying.

amen !

 
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Two details that are based some of the good information BrokenBall has presented:

1) There are a few people on this thread that have presented that thicker sponge is faster. I think the issue is complicated. But one time, years ago, as PNachtwey, BrokenBall presented video of a robot sending balls at 2 rackets. The speed and spin settings on the robot were the same for both rackets. The wood was the same. The only difference was that one racket had Max Thickness sponge and the other had 1.9 thickness sponge of the same make (the thinner sponge could have been 1.7). The rubbers were the same make. The only difference was the sponge. I believe the rubber used in the test was one of the Tenergy rubbers but it was so long ago, I can't really remember.

Each racket was clamped in the same position. and from the video footage, you could see, in that scenario of blocking (direct contact) the thinner sponge was faster.

I am not really sure if my assumptions are correct or not but I think thicker sponge does two things: a) it gives you a bigger window for spinning the ball because you have to compress more sponge to bottom out the sponge. That also results in the fact that, if you are spinning the ball, YOU CAN SWING HARDER with the thicker sponge because you can compress the sponge more. So, when spinning the ball, you can spin more and hit harder with thicker sponge. But in direct contact, thinner sponge will be faster.

I am not sure if that information is true of not. But, based on the video demonstration, I think it is complicated to simply say that thicker sponge is faster. And if any of you has seen or played with a decently high level hardbat player.....there is no way a smash with sponge will go as fast as a smash from a good hardbat player who knows how to smash the ball.

2) Dwell time......if you timed the full duration of time where the racket is moving forward on a big FH stroke, from backswing to followthrough, the length of time, from a good player is really pretty short. Is it 1 second, 1.2 seconds.....I doubt it is much more than that if the player has a good FH. If in that one second, the racket moves about 4 feet from backswing to followthrough and the ball is on the blade face for about 1cm (aproximately 0.4 inches) for dwell time that is quite long, would that be more than a microsecond? There is no way that dwell time can be more than a couple of microseconds on a good stroke. And as Baal has explained many times, our nervous system is not wired to read impulses that quickly. So, whatever we actually feel when we think we are feeling dwell time must be something else because dwell time does not last for a long enough duration for us to actually feel it.

It is possible that what people are feeling when they refer to dwell time is vibrations in the wood from the impact. But you are not actually feeling dwell time.

So, again, BrokenBall does present some very valuable information. And I do wish he would just present the information and not use it to try and antagonize people.

Thats very interesting and bears out BB 's contention for flat impacts.
for tangential (brushing) impacts I always visualized it as equivalent to twanging a taut elastic band which led to my intuition that thicker=faster But now I concede the Jury is out!

BTW
having just seen the latest PANGBOT
it seems to me that by attaching different thickness rubbers to its blade, interesting controlled experiments could be made with the aid of camera.
Perhaps BB can afford one!

 
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OK, let's talk BIG :)

Carl, you are a good admin. Here I disagree with you, don't want to go to the details. Just 1 thing.

The amount of support and love :) zeio and BB get from you feels very disproportionate to me.

Just MHO: you should say sorry to zeio, bring him back, and ban BB. It is the best for all.
 
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OK, let's talk BIG :)

Carl, you are a good admin. Here I disagree with you, don't want to go to the details. Just 1 thing.

The amount of support and love :) zeio and BB get from you feels very disproportionate to me.

Just MHO: you should say sorry to zeio, bring him back, and ban BB. It is the best for all.

I am not sure I understand this. Zeio is not banned. Zeio can come on any time he wants.

When what happened went down, I asked Zeio and BB to stop attacking each other. BB ignored me and kept going. Zeio did not ignore me. He said that freedom and free speech required that he was going to refuse to follow my request.

They each got a very short ban that was really about giving them a short time away from the forum to cool down.


When Zeio came back, he made a big deal about it and then decided not to come back on the forum. I believe, what he wanted when his 3 week ban was finished was to have the 3 week ban retroactively undone. I am not really even sure what that means. But I never wanted Zeio to leave and would be happy for him to be back. He just decided not to come back because he got asked not to make things worse by antagonizing BB.

This is the quote that got him the brief ban:



There's no use avoiding. The thing is he will rub everyone up the wrong way, always. I'll keep engaging him when I feel like it. It's exciting.

But there is nothing stopping Zeio from coming on the forum. He is not banned. I like Zeio. I think he was a great contributor to this forum. I definitely have nothing against him.

What I did was simply to keep BB and Zeio from going at each other for a few weeks hoping that if they had a little time away from the forum, some of the stuff they had kept going at each other about for the past few months might get dropped. And at the time that happened, to me it seemed like both of them were escalating their behavior.

Now we all read the forum and see different things. So, we may all read situations differently. But I was just trying to get those guys to calm down.

 
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Carl, thank you for banning BB. I asked for that so thank you.

Maybe I am too ignorant of maths and physics, and definitely not a millionaire businessman, so nothing he ever said in any incarnation (Pnachtwey or BB or others) ever had the slightest usefulness to me. All he did was insult people, and yell at them to stop talking about dwell time, without making any effort to understand that to them dwell time meant something other than the literal meaning of the words.

If brokenball or whatever alias never comes back to the forums I will be happy not to hear his rants again.

And I'm happy also to hear that zeio isn't banned. He has relocated to mytt. zeio is a know-it-all and likes to argue, and say I told you so about stuff he posted in 2018. That's all true. But unlike brokenball, zeio takes a lot of time to add valuable, new, non-equipment related, pro player news and analysis to the forums. I used to send a few $ to his patreon or whatever funding thing for the translations he did of CNT post-match interviews. The information he posts from Chinese and Japanese social media table tennis chats is always interesting too. Nobody else brings that, and it does contribute a lot to whichever forum he is on.
 
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And I'm happy also to hear that zeio isn't banned. He has relocated to mytt. zeio is a know-it-all and likes to argue, and say I told you so about stuff he posted in 2018. That's all true. But unlike brokenball, zeio takes a lot of time to add valuable, new, non-equipment related, pro player news and analysis to the forums. I used to send a few $ to his patreon or whatever funding thing for the translations he did of CNT post-match interviews. The information he posts from Chinese and Japanese social media table tennis chats is always interesting too. Nobody else brings that, and it does contribute a lot to whichever forum he is on.

I agree with all the positive things you include about Zeio. I think he is smart and funny. I think he posts great information. And, to me, it is clear he loves table tennis.

When I gave him and BB that brief ban it was to keep get them to cool down. Sometimes time away from the forum is useful. And at the time, things between BB and Zeio were escalating. What I asked for was for them to avoid each other and not engage in escalating things.

To the best of my understanding, when Zeio's 3 week ban was finished, he wanted to retroactively undo the ban (I really am not sure what he wanted), and he also took offense to the fact that both Dan and I asked him to simply avoid interacting with BB.

But that he is not on TTD anymore is his choice. It has nothing to do with TTD administration. I would like him to be back on the forum as well. so....he is not on TTD as a result of his own decisions. But I am glad he is on MyTT.

 
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I am not sure I understand this. Zeio is not banned. Zeio can come on any time he wants.
...
Now we all read the forum and see different things. So, we may all read situations differently. But I was just trying to get those guys to calm down.

I know that zeio is not banned, I didn't say he is.

In my opinion, you are the only one here, who could bring him back.
 
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I know that zeio is not banned, I didn't say he is.

In my opinion, you are the only one here, who could bring him back.

If you would like to explain more fully on here or by PM I am happy to listen because it was never my intention to have him decide he was done with TTD.

 
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Hard to be angry as a physicist if other people with other professions do not understand the physics. I also think it is important to be careful with assumptions about people over the internet, very hard to know really anthing about them.

With that said, i think a lot of people would be interested in learning from Brokenball. He only need to become a better teacher and a bit softer in his communication, and i hope he can develop this in the future.
 
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If you would like to explain more fully on here or by PM I am happy to listen because it was never my intention to have him decide he was done with TTD.

This is already some time ago, and my memory is imprecise. Also, I just don't want to re-read all of it again, so please bare this, it's my recollection. If I remember correctly, zeio got 3 weeks ban, while BB got 1 week. I am not even sure it was so, I only remember the feeling of in-justice.

Also, it is not the 1st time, that after BB made one of his extempores, and people reacted, that you wrote a post saying, BB is often right and that he sometimes posts valuable stuff. Basically in a way, standing up for him. This repeats, and he doesn't learn anything anyway. I don't remember you doing something like this for zeio. Perhaps there was no need, or no occassion.

And in that discussion itself, which eventually led to zeio's demise. Basically zeio refuted one BB's claim after another, and BB always comes back and says: but tell me X. Which zeio ignores. Then zeio wins another point, and BB says: but tell me X. And again and again. Then zeio left, I discussed with BB for some time (I was more neutral back then). Eventually it was revealed that the X was something like (I exagerate): tell me what I had for lunch yesterday. At that moment I abruptly stopped all communication with BB.

It's good to hear you like Zeio. I understand your motivation. It went side-ways. Factually, in the discussion, zeio was right and BB was wrong. But that was ignored, by you and Dan. It was perceived like 2 people attacking each other, both equally wrong. They were not equally wrong, in my opinion.

And yes, reading zeio's posts is always exciting, and new.

Regarding that point about bringing back zeio. My impression is that he respects authorities, if he can. I hope I have explained my view a bit.

With that said, i think a lot of people would be interested in learning from Brokenball. He only need to become a better teacher and a bit softer in his communication, and i hope he can develop this in the future.

Hey Lula, cheers. Don't take it too serious, please :). I disagree, with both the hope and the value!
 
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This is already some time ago, and my memory is imprecise. Also, I just don't want to re-read all of it again, so please bare this, it's my recollection. If I remember correctly, zeio got 3 weeks ban, while BB got 1 week. I am not even sure it was so, I only remember the feeling of in-justice.

Also, it is not the 1st time, that after BB made one of his extempores, and people reacted, that you wrote a post saying, BB is often right and that he sometimes posts valuable stuff. Basically in a way, standing up for him. This repeats, and he doesn't learn anything anyway. I don't remember you doing something like this for zeio. Perhaps there was no need, or no occassion.

And in that discussion itself, which eventually led to zeio's demise. Basically zeio refuted one BB's claim after another, and BB always comes back and says: but tell me X. Which zeio ignores. Then zeio wins another point, and BB says: but tell me X. And again and again. Then zeio left, I discussed with BB for some time (I was more neutral back then). Eventually it was revealed that the X was something like (I exagerate): tell me what I had for lunch yesterday. At that moment I abruptly stopped all communication with BB.

It's good to hear you like Zeio. I understand your motivation. It went side-ways. Factually, in the discussion, zeio was right and BB was wrong. But that was ignored, by you and Dan. It was perceived like 2 people attacking each other, both equally wrong. They were not equally wrong, in my opinion.

And yes, reading zeio's posts is always exciting, and new.

Regarding that point about bringing back zeio. My impression is that he respects authorities, if he can. I hope I have explained my view a bit.



Hey Lula, cheers. Don't take it too serious, please :). I disagree, with both the hope and the value!

BB got a 2 week ban (not a 1 week ban) because, he did not straight up say: I refuse to follow what you are asking me to do to cool down the situation.

Zeio got a 3 week ban because, after I asked him not to engage with BB he flatly refused. And then after he was back and Dan discussed the issue with him, he also flatly refused to just avoid BB.

My memory of what happened was that it was about freedom of speech and that he felt he should be able to do what he was doing and refused to let anyone tell him who he could interact with on the forum. My point in response would be, it is not always about freedom of speed on an internet forum or I would not be deleting spam or trying to calm things down when people make personal attacks. We do need a certain amount of civility on the forum. Which is also why BB just got a 3 month break from the forum.

BB did not get banned because of technical information. He got banned because he is abusive to the people he interacts with. And it seems clear to me that his bad behavior had once again been escalating. When that three months is finished what do I think will happen? I hope, if he comes back he behaves well. If he does not, I may have to give him a permanent ban. But that will be up to him and how he behaves on the forum.

I am not sure the issue of right and wrong was cut and dry in the diatribes between BB and Zeio. BB generally will set up scenarios where, from one perspective, he cannot be wrong. Zeio and BB were actually arguing different issues past each other.

However, the REAL ISSUE was that both were being rude in their own ways. And on that front, from my perspective, BOTH OF THEM were simply behaving in a manner unsuitable to the forum. I am not sure anyone can beat BB on the rudeness factor. But, from the standpoint of the forum needing to calm down, NEITHER OF THEM were behaving well. And from the standpoint of engagement, only Zeio insisted that he would not stop targeting BB.

In a different world, I would not have been asking either of them to stop. What Zeio was doing and knew he was doing was triggering BB. I know I have had a moderator from a different forum say that, given time BB will always end up doing something to go over the line. I think that is true. Probably if I had let Zeio and BB go at it for longer back then BB would have been banned a while ago.

I was not trying to chase Zeio away. I also do not think BB was anywhere near as valuable a contributor as Zeio. But since I feel Zeio knew what he is doing and I feel BB is not fully in control of himself, I was not expecting to have Zeio refuse to do something that would be easy for him to do and would benefit the whole forum if he simply was not antagonizing and triggering BB. And it was easy to see that when Zeio did do those things to BB, BB behaved worse and worse.

 
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BB got a 2 week ban (not a 1 week ban) because, he did not straight up say: I refuse to follow what you are asking me to do to cool down the situation.

Zeio got a 3 week ban because, after I asked him not to engage with BB he flatly refused. And then after he was back and Dan discussed the issue with him, he also flatly refused to just avoid BB.

My memory of what happened was that it was about freedom of speech and that he felt he should be able to do what he was doing and refused to let anyone tell him who he could interact with on the forum. My point in response would be, it is not always about freedom of speed on an internet forum or I would not be deleting spam or trying to calm things down when people make personal attacks. We do need a certain amount of civility on the forum. Which is also why BB just got a 3 month break from the forum.

BB did not get banned because of technical information. He got banned because he is abusive to the people he interacts with. And it seems clear to me that his bad behavior had once again been escalating. When that three months is finished what do I think will happen? I hope, if he comes back he behaves well. If he does not, I may have to give him a permanent ban. But that will be up to him and how he behaves on the forum.

I am not sure the issue of right and wrong was cut and dry in the diatribes between BB and Zeio. BB generally will set up scenarios where, from one perspective, he cannot be wrong. Zeio and BB were actually arguing different issues past each other.

However, the REAL ISSUE was that both were being rude in their own ways. And on that front, from my perspective, BOTH OF THEM were simply behaving in a manner unsuitable to the forum. I am not sure anyone can beat BB on the rudeness factor. But, from the standpoint of the forum needing to calm down, NEITHER OF THEM were behaving well. And from the standpoint of engagement, only Zeio insisted that he would not stop targeting BB.

In a different world, I would not have been asking either of them to stop. What Zeio was doing and knew he was doing was triggering BB. I know I have had a moderator from a different forum say that, given time BB will always end up doing something to go over the line. I think that is true. Probably if I had let Zeio and BB go at it for longer back then BB would have been banned a while ago.

I was not trying to chase Zeio away. I also do not think BB was anywhere near as valuable a contributor as Zeio. But since I feel Zeio knew what he is doing and I feel BB is not fully in control of himself, I was not expecting to have Zeio refuse to do something that would be easy for him to do and would benefit the whole forum if he simply was not antagonizing and triggering BB. And it was easy to see that when Zeio did do those things to BB, BB behaved worse and worse.


Thanks a lot for explaining, Carl. I'm partially glad I could let it out, too.
 
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I was wondering why the heck would Tony send me a PM asking about WTT rules on MyTT, after we just bickered not long ago? I mean, isn't there anyone on TTD that could answer a basic question?

I got curious and came over for a look.

"Talking Big." Whoa! Some things never change.

Whatever. Here's all I have to say, which I have said already.

I humored Carl's "request". Look what brokenball posted next(read the end of his post). Look what Carl posted afterwards. In defense of myself, I posted this next and got banned.

There is a Catonese saying:
你做初一,我做十五

And then Zi Lu's saying again:
子路:
子曰:「其身正,不令而行;其身不正,雖令不從。」


Thank you for the kind words, latej. What did Depp say to Disney about returning to the franchise?

Gotta go.
 
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