FH topspin generations

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If you watch ML and WCQ playing FH top-spin, it is pure beauty. As others say, it is poetry in motion. It's like both are perfect, and yet, they both belong to different generations. And the development, is a must, it is necessary, and it is inevitable. It's like, during those years, the Chinese team, they learnt something. Even though for me, the ML's way is perfect and beautiful, there are some differences in WCQ's way, which is actually also, in a slightly different way, absolutely beautiful. So what it is? What is the difference? What is the newer way? What is the thing in ML's way they would not teach (or emphasize) to younger generations? What is the thing they would emphasize, and which is now manifested in WCQ's way?

P.S. I know FH topspin of itself is not very relevant to one's results. But that's beside the point.
P.P.S. Look at that guy in the corner, FZH and WCQ are sweating, and he's just HAPPY.
 
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I do not think they have more perfect loop than anyone else(relative to good pros). Compared to players frome europe i think they just are much much better at moving and keeping balance so they are able to loop well.

I think in general players before had heavier forehand loops? more forehand feet, longer stroke, even more body(but probably need body with heavier ball?)?
Nowadays, since they play more like the ladies, with more backhandoriented game and faster i think they emphasize forehand loops that are shorter and faster so easier?

I think in general it is very hard to talk about technique as perfect, functional is a better word. I do think the chinese have good technique, but if they start training earlier and much more maybe they are better because it and not because the technique is superior to other all the time? I still think the balance and movement is a big part. Looking at Zhendong is almost boring, basically do one backhand and forehand loop but move so well and have so good balance so can do it all the time.

Also hard to talk about how technique is changing. Players will always play different. And really good players will have a bit different strokes so who have the best technique.

Interesting subject how much emphazise should be put on "perfect" techniqe for developing young players? what do you think?
 
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Hi Lula, thanks for the response. You're touching many other subjects. I tried to somehow focus on 1 thing (which I am still very interested in), but still, now I realize that I have implicitly brought how I perceive certain things, and your way of perceiving, is a bit different - which you also brought now, and that made me realize it :)

I do not think they have more perfect loop than anyone else(relative to good pros). Compared to players frome europe i think they just are much much better at moving and keeping balance so they are able to loop well.

Yes, I also think the movement/balance is alpha and omega, and that they are amazing, and I think Japan players are amazing here too. However I wouldn't say they are that much better than top europeans, like the German "B" ("B" in quotes :)) team in Chengdu now.

But here I tried to limit to the technique itself, if we consider movement granted or so. More from the point of view of CNT couch, when he'd focus on the technique itself.

I think in general players before had heavier forehand loops? more forehand feet, longer stroke, even more body(but probably need body with heavier ball?)?
Nowadays, since they play more like the ladies, with more backhandoriented game and faster i think they emphasize forehand loops that are shorter and faster so easier?

I guess that may be 1 important point, in the "over time" development. Also, it seems to me that WCQ is/stands generally a little bit lower/wider than ML. Like on average. They both can/do vary the elbow angle (how straight is the arm) in different shots. I think on average WCQ's angle is even bigger (I may be wrong here). I do think FZD's angle is bigger. That complicates shorter recovery even more. Maybe they have some tricks here?

I think in general it is very hard to talk about technique as perfect, functional is a better word. I do think the chinese have good technique, but if they start training earlier and much more maybe they are better because it and not because the technique is superior to other all the time?

Yeah, that is the core I guess. I am approaching it more from the visual side here, than from the results/functional side. And the visual side is quite personal, almost like which car do we consider pretty (I am using car, you know what I mean :)). It does overlap though. And actually for me it has even higher value than the functional side, for me it is more time-less.

In my perception, the beauty in motion is a strict super-set of functionality. Meaning, if it is beautiful, it is also functional (A => B, and notB => notA). The beauty here contains in it the energy transfer, the effectivity, the functionality, and over it, it is pleasing.

For example, I admire FZD, but I do not consider his FH technique particularly pleasing to me. Whereas I do consider ML's and WCQ's technique particularly pleasing. Again, I think TH is an amazing player, but here I even dislike his FH, which is now a perfect example of a functional FH. I do not distinguish between nations here, really, just as I don't distinguish the nationality of beautiful cars :)

I still think the balance and movement is a big part. Looking at Zhendong is almost boring, basically do one backhand and forehand loop but move so well and have so good balance so can do it all the time.

LOL, almost boring :). Isn't it beautiful how he moves?

Balance and movement is crucial. I try to focus on it personally too.

Also hard to talk about how technique is changing. Players will always play different. And really good players will have a bit different strokes so who have the best technique.

I know how you mean it. But try to view it more personally. You also do like only certain cars ;-)

Interesting subject how much emphazise should be put on "perfect" techniqe for developing young players? what do you think?

I do not train children. But it happened to me already several times, that when I trained with a child, I tried to explain the body/hip-rotation-induced arm movement. Tried to bring the focus and realization of it. In karate you start with it. It just doesn't work otherwise. In TT often people are not even aware of it. It is a part of "functional perfection".
 
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After finishing the stroke, Ma Long's body weight is more on left leg than FZD. Ma Long is facing more to left and FZD is facing ahead.

I think this is a good example of how the “modern” game is adapting to more “square” to the ball play incorporating quicker and stronger backhands.

Take a look at Harimoto as well.


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If you watch ML and WCQ playing FH top-spin, it is pure beauty. As others say, it is poetry in motion. It's like both are perfect, and yet, they both belong to different generations. And the development, is a must, it is necessary, and it is inevitable. It's like, during those years, the Chinese team, they learnt something. Even though for me, the ML's way is perfect and beautiful, there are some differences in WCQ's way, which is actually also, in a slightly different way, absolutely beautiful. So what it is? What is the difference? What is the newer way? What is the thing in ML's way they would not teach (or emphasize) to younger generations? What is the thing they would emphasize, and which is now manifested in WCQ's way?

P.S. I know FH topspin of itself is not very relevant to one's results. But that's beside the point.
P.P.S. Look at that guy in the corner, FZH and WCQ are sweating, and he's just HAPPY.

I have to agree with you. FZD and ML represent two tribes of FH technique:


  1. Brushing: hitting ratio - ML > FZD
  2. Range of motion of arms and bodies - ML > FZD
  3. Catapult effect from the blade - ML > FZD
  4. Recovery - FZD > ML


I used to play penhold in the 1990-2000s. Like many in that generation, I played FH all over the table. I have always admired athletes who commit to risky FH shots - RSM, ML, Xu Xin, the young ML and now WCQ.

I am very glad that WCQ takes risk by using more FH topspin. Apart from top Korean players, I can't think of any other who play this risk, but beautiful FH style.

 
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I think this is a good example of how the “modern” game is adapting to more “square” to the ball play incorporating quicker and stronger backhands.

Take a look at Harimoto as well.

Harimoto's forearm barely moves in FH topspin. He relies on body rotation.

Having said that, his Dignics rubber really helps. Imagine if he plays H3, he will have to swing his forearm more.

 
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I do not think they have more perfect loop than anyone else(relative to good pros). Compared to players frome europe i think they just are much much better at moving and keeping balance so they are able to loop well.

You can see Timo Boll warming up in the background but - at least it looks like that - he is much more strained and way less relaxed as Ma Long or Lin Gaoyuan.
Same with Xu Xin
For me this is just beautiful to watch. Just like beauty in mathematics, physics or engineering: not always a or the solution but quite often part of an elegant solution.

 
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