Weight transfer on BH loop

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Hi folks.. I played BH drive against backspin multiball yesterday. At the end of it, felt a bit of pain just above my left knee.. muscle pain.. was wondering if this is normal or if this is due to incorrect technique. I did check some videos on youtube, but that didn't make it easier to understand this. People have different techniques. Not many talk abt weight transfer. Does it mean one should be evenly balanced?

This is what I think I do. I always center the ball like a BH counter(I don't take it outside my body), bend down, drop the wrist a little (around height of mid-thigh), and then do something with my hand to make sure the ball lands on the table.. :) I don't have a consistent technique. I will try to take a video tonight or tomorrow if possible. Sometimes I open the left leg and keep it parallel to the baseline of the table.

My concern is, is the pain normal or is it due to some mistake. Are there any stretches to ease this particular pain and help the muscles recover faster?

Thank you!
 
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Okay, I am going to ignore the correct/incorrect technique aspect of this and focus on the pain and what will make it better aspect. I am sure that there are people who will look at your technique when you post a video and help you if you are doing something wrong.

So first: the pain above your left knee, is it still there, or was it just for a short while?

Second, was it the front of the leg above the knee: quadriceps muslces? Was it the back if the leg above the knee: hamstrings? Was it lateral: outside (left side) of leg above the knee? Was it medial: inside (right side) above the knee?

Third, was the pain from over working the muscles or did the pain feel like: "Sh_t, this hurts like someone stabbed me with a sharp knife and I must have injured myself?"

If you answer as many of those questions as you can, I should be able to give you more information.
 
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The pain was above my knee (front of the leg) on the inside... It went away after a good night's sleep.. I think it is from overworking the muscles.

The left knee and leg feels a bit stiff. I guess I am putting more weight on this leg!? But I am a right hander.. shouldn't my right leg be hurting?
 
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I am a rightie and my left knee was killing me...the the MCL, inside left knee. It's because I twist my knee every time when I hit an inside out FH. Now, I've corrected my footwork, and it's slowly recovering.

Your left knee will hurt if you reach far to the left for your BH topspins since all your weight will be focus there. The BH topspins should be made with your body directly behind the ball. Though you see most pros are able to do this ridiculous sidespins (never topspins) when the ball is too far from on their BH, but their body are well conditioned to do them.
 
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Hi Azlan.. Thanks.. What did you do to stop the pain? You stopped twisting your knee? You open your left leg more and keep it that way? But it will happen everytime you hit a FH loop, no? maybe I am also getting pain due to my FH technique!? On BH, I find sidespins easier to hit and they land more consistently than my topspin. BH is still "work in progress".
 
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Hi Azlan.. Thanks.. What did you do to stop the pain? You stopped twisting your knee? You open your left leg more and keep it that way? But it will happen everytime you hit a FH loop, no? maybe I am also getting pain due to my FH technique!? On BH, I find sidespins easier to hit and they land more consistently than my topspin. BH is still "work in progress".

My guess is that this is not exactly the same thing as what happened to Azlan, but, what you need to do to not have what happened to Azlan happen to you is, you need to be on the balls of your feet, not your heels and you need to let your feet pivot with your stroke so that as your hips turn with the stroke you do not torque your knees.

But lets hope and lets assume that what you did is based on the inner aspect of your quadriceps muscle working to much. To stretch that, bend your knee, grab for your foot and pull your foot back towards your bottom. To stretch it more, be in a runner's lunge, right foot forward on the floor, left knee back and on the floor, make the stance decently long, bend the front knee so that you feel some stretch in the front of your left hip. Then bend your left knee and grab the foot with the left hand pulling the foot towards your bottom, have your right hand on your right knee. Only bring the foot to a point where you feel a comfortable stretch. Not too far. Then switch hands. Have your left hand on your right knee and reach for the left foot with the right hand. Do the same thing. This second one will get the inside of the thigh a little more than the first one but you want to do the first one anyway.

I guess, one more question: the pain, which went away, but left some residual stiffness, how close to the knee was it? One or two inches above your knee (very close), 3 or 4 inches above your knee (close enough but not too close)?

By the way, that the pain did not last but left some residual stiffness indicates that, it could either be simply that you overworked some muscles, or, if it is damage to your knee, you have not done enough yet, for it to be too long lasting.

Truthfully, if it recurs and you feel worried about it, it is not a bad idea to see a physical therapist and have them see what you need to do for it and show you. If I was there in person with you, we could take care of it much more simply and directly.
 
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It is also possible that muscles that are to tight/stiff and forced into action can tear up all manner of weal link stuff like tendons and such. it is also possible that some muscle is too strong proportionately, so it overpowers other weak muscles. Just as well, one weak muscle group that is forced into action with other much more powerful muscles tears stuff up. it is a muscle imbalance thing and possible. The calf being too strong and runnng on hard ground is one sure way to get shin pain as an example of one muscle group overpowering the other. Sometimes a muscle feels hurt when small fibers are torn and not enough rest happens between activity. Also, it is possible that the playing surface wears you down. I can tell you that playing basketball in Iraq too much on very coarse concrete KILLED my patellor tendons. Sometimes worn-out footwear or footwear without the proper support wear you out in weak links.

There are a lot of things that can be in play, so hard to tell exactly.
 
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It is also possible that muscles that are to tight/stiff and forced into action can tear up all manner of weal link stuff like tendons and such. it is also possible that some muscle is too strong proportionately, so it overpowers other weak muscles. Just as well, one weak muscle group that is forced into action with other much more powerful muscles tears stuff up. it is a muscle imbalance thing and possible. The calf being too strong and runnng on hard ground is one sure way to get shin pain as an example of one muscle group overpowering the other. Sometimes a muscle feels hurt when small fibers are torn and not enough rest happens between activity. Also, it is possible that the playing surface wears you down. I can tell you that playing basketball in Iraq too much on very coarse concrete KILLED my patellor tendons. Sometimes worn-out footwear or footwear without the proper support wear you out in weak links.

There are a lot of things that can be in play, so hard to tell exactly.

This is what I will say about this. Sort of true, but I am not sure that it applies to this circumstance and lets hope strangeloop has not damaged connective tissue. Minor damage to ligaments and tendons are manageable if the issue that is causing the problem is corrected. That would mean not keeping the heels on the ground and letting the feet move with the stroke.

But, the stretches I described above, should help as long as you do not overstretch. Just a relaxed stretch to get the muscles to let go and release tension. Not anything too deep.

And an answer to that question of how close to the knee it is would actually be helpful.
 
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I added a short clip of my BH loop here. I guess I don't really bounce after the stroke like some do. That throws me off balance for the next stroke. I am on my heels and I guess that's NOT a good thing at all.


Carl, Thanks for your reply.. The pain was very close to the top of the knee.. occasionally it pains just below the knee on the bone on the inside. I did the first stretch you mentioned post-practice session today.. I don't feel any pain today. My leg seems alright. The other stretch you mentioned seems complicated. Can you point to any pictures or videos?

Der_Echte, I play on a slightly slippery wooden flooring on weekdays. So I do strain my knee more here. I play at another place during the weekends. The wooden flooring there is perfect.
 
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I really don't see how you could hurt your knees doing that, it's prolly just muscle pain from the exercise.

[OT]Your elbow is going nuts there. And your wrist is so firm and broken, very awkward. Sounds like your training partner using a whip to return the ball btw[/OT]
 
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Your body, center of gravity. Bend bit. As joonpill said, awkward wrist. no movement(no brush of the ball, when contact) relax your wrist and when hit the ball, make
a brush, a rotational from left to right. I see you just hit the ball only. lift your Elbow, so your whole hand will drop down and your wrist can relax. From video, elbow and wrist almost parallel...
 
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Carl, Thanks for your reply.. The pain was very close to the top of the knee.. occasionally it pains just below the knee on the bone on the inside. I did the first stretch you mentioned post-practice session today.. I don't feel any pain today. My leg seems alright. The other stretch you mentioned seems complicated. Can you point to any pictures or videos?

Okay, so the second stretch:

IMG_1597.jpg

If you start something like this and then you take your hands onto your front knee. Then you bend your back knee and grab for your foot. First you grab with the same hand as the back foot. Then you take that hand forward and grab with the other hand. This will give you a different angle on stretching the muscles that cross the knee and give you more of the inside of the knee. So, if you had your right foot forward and your left leg back, you would first grab with your left hand. Then you would grab with your right hand. When the left leg is back, that will be the side that your left knee needs. But you should do both sides anyway.

Grabbing will look a little like this, but my leg position is more fancy and you probably should not pull the foot as close to the hip as I am:

IMG_1373.jpg

The way I am pushing down, with my upper arm parallel to the ground and my elbow pointing back, you don't need that or even want that. Just reach back for the foot and pull the heel gently towards you. This second photo is just to show that I am grabbing the foot. Not for the position of the front leg or how far I am pushing my heel towards my hip.
 
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Adding another short clip:


In this second video the problem is actually evident. In the first video I though, "there is nothing he can be doing that would be bad for the knee here, he is hardly moving at all." But in this video, you can see what the problem is. In a different post I will say something about your stroke that hopefully helps, but this has nothing to do with your stroke. This is what you do with your left foot. You should watch this video several times to see what you tend to do with your left foot. Make the video as large as you can and just watch the feet and legs, do not watch what is happening above the table. What you are doing with your left foot is why you are making your knee unhappy. I doubt, from this that it is real damage. But what you are doing needs to be changed.

I am going to list some times for you to look at specifically, but this happens a lot:

:12, :14, :17,

I think that is enough.

Truthfully it happens many many more times than that and it sometimes happens a few times within one second. I looked at your right foot to see if you do it there as well. It does not look like you do this with your right foot, but you have your right heel fully on the floor too much anyway.

With your left foot, you frequently plant the heel and pick up your toes. That is putting stress on the muscles of your legs in a way you don't want. By forcing your weight back instead of forward, it does things that are bad for your stroke as well but, that is not the issue I am concerned with here. By planting your heel and lifting the front of your foot to move and pivot, you are placing stress on your left knee. Again, you don't really do that with your right foot. You should watch this video a few times and see how often you do that. There should never be a point where your heel is on the floor and your toes and the front of your foot is off the floor.

What you need to do to help your knee is: 1) Bend your knees more, 2) Stay down, you tend to go down and up too much. #3) and #4) are connected and they are what is causing you the real problems:

3) GET YOUR WEIGHT FORWARD

4) STAY ON THE BALLS OF YOUR FEET.

Those four things will not only help your stroke, they will help your knee. But the main thing is that you should not plant your left heel, pick up the front of your foot, and pivot on your heel.

Now I am confident that those stretches should help what is going on and things will get better. But if you correct that main issue, then it will get better also.
 
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Now, I will say something about your stroke: :)

I hope this helps.

The first part will be a repeat of some of the above as it relates to your stroke.

What you are doing very well is your feet are moving all the time. This is hard for a lot of people and you are doing it very well. That is really great.

However, because you go up and down, you are not as stable as you want to be so you are not seeing the ball as well as you should. Get down and stay down. As you get down, try and get your eyes to about the height of the net. Round your upper back. Stay at that height where your eyes are as close to the height of the net as you can get. Bring your weight forward into the balls of your feet and try and keep your heels off the ground. Sometimes they will go down but you are trying to keep your weight forward and your heels a little off the ground. That is your stance. I know, it feels awkward at first and takes a lot to get used to. I think of it as though I am imitating a monkey. :)

So, your stroke, your elbow moves all over the place and you raise your elbow to try and lift the ball. This makes it so that each stroke is a little different. You want your elbow stable and you want the forearm to be what moves. Your elbow should pivot but not move. If it moves it should only move a little forward, not up or to the side. Your wrist is moving too much as well. Keep your wrist stable. If you learn how to do the stroke with the elbow and wrist stable and by moving the forearm from the pivot (rotation) of the elbow, then, when you add the wrist with control, you will have a really good stroke.

What all that means is that you also have to move to the ball so that you are hitting the ball from the same place in front of you, so that you can keep your elbow stable and take the same stroke every time. You move well, but you tend to not move all the way to the ball and then you adjust your arm to where the ball is.

All this said, I need to work on all that stuff as well. :) So your videos are a good instructional for me to see many of the same things I need to work on. :)

I hope this all helps. And I am glad your knee felt better fairly quickly.
 
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Hi guys, Thanks a lot! So, my video is a perfect demo of "how not to play backhand".. :) It could be used as an educational tool.. :p

Thanks for the advice and pointers.. Joonpill, you are right. Wrist is too stiff.. That comes from playing with kung-fu bats for 3-4 years. I am used to hitting the ball hard and even to generate spin, you had to hold it really tight. At least that's what I used to do. I have to fix it. I worked hard to fix this issue on my FH but on BH, it is still evident.

Ducksick, I will work on dropping my elbow. Even Der_Echte pointed out the same on another post. Should bend more, bring the elbow forward a little and drop my wrist and brush the ball. :) Easier said than done!

I do agree all this is important. But I think what Carl said about my weight balance strikes me as even more important. During practice/drills, I have an accuracy ratio of 80%. I don't miss many. But in games, I miss a lot. I used to wonder about this. Even my friend was surprised.. He was asking "you move so well in practice. but you don't do it in matches". I replied "in practice, I know where the ball is coming. So it is not a problem.. And stamina/footwork is not an issue either. So I can get in to position easily and hit. In matches I seem to lack anticipation." I guess the second part of the answer lies in Carl's observations above. My body weight is always on my heels and even when I see the ball, I am not able to move or react quickly enough. So this doesn't affect only my BH drives or knees, it affects my whole game.

Carl, Many thanks for pointing this out and also for the stretches! I will ensure I do it regularly. The pain is not so bad. No permanent damage I suppose. :-relief!

Next problem? Now that I am learning to hit BH rolls and loops, in matches I am stuck in deciding b/w the two. I even put BH counters into the net regularly because I am not in position quickly enough to loop.. So I decide to play a counter. By then it is too late. :) This game is FUN!!
 
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Strangeloop ..... believe me I have played with bats worse the kung fu . Only when I got my job I did buy my first setup .. which was a classic butterfly jonyer + mark V setup . Technology has progressed a lot and the strokes and techniques have progressed with it since. This is my advice :
Focus on spinning the ball and try to play simple so that what you are practicing you can take it to the game. Classic scenario : Wepractice serve and attack in practice with simple underspin serve , in the match we do a lot of side spin serves and end up being out of position on our third ball attacks. So along with your regular drills make sure you practising effectively . Just hitting the ball over and over in practice does not guarantee progress.
Focus on making the stroke movement as compact as you can.
Practice a lot of footwork and faster multiballs.
Also remeber to have fun with the ball , hitting the hell out of it is not the only way to enjoy the game , try to learn an all round game . Make sure you have a defensive game plan ( block and counter etc ) to fall back to and when its not your day to win every point with offense.
 
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yeah strangeloop, the BH loop looks easy, and it is, if you are in position and have time. The nice thing is you do not need a lot of backswing and it helps to cock the wrist. it is so important to be in position, like any shot. yet with the BH, it is so difficult to make a quality consistant shot off balance or on the run like the much more dynamic FH can do. Another key point is to get waist down and hitting shoulder in front. Strike zone is closer to the body than FH. Hit out of strike zone and you are asking for a failure. A great thing about BH is that it can be done with little backswing, so the BH can be done when you have little time, so long as you are in position and decide soon enough to use the BH shot. Another great thing about BH is since the backswing is small, it can be difficult to determine the direction of the shot, so opponent must know your tendencies to have any chance of being in position. My club players hate me as I put my BH loop everywhere anytime with a lot of spin. They are often caught out of position or it is a suprise that it goes right at them.

Like any shot in our sport, you will not get there in one day of training. However, if you can manage to correct fundemental basics of the shot, your shot will look much better.
 
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Okay. The good news is, your knee will not be bothering you for long. :)

The other good news is, in spite of all the info, you are doing a lot right. :)

I agree with what ttmonster. Spin the ball. The way I think of it, the real big boys all spin the ball. They don't really do anything else. Spin, Spin, SPIN. Learning to spin everything, focusing on spinning everything, at some point, you will be able to spin everything.

As far as reaction time, you should read this thread. Yosua posted some excellent information transported from the Ooak Forum. It is worth the read.

http://www.tabletennisdaily.co.uk/f...-wturber-of-OOAKForum&highlight=reaction+time

Oh, yeah, and if you always know where the ball will in your drills, you need to add an element of randomness to them, like, if you are doing backhands, then, to try and catch you off guard your practice partner should, every so often put the ball to your forehand.

Serve and receive drills are also a great idea because there is an element of randomness to them and because you are simulating a game scenario. Drills that just go cross court forehand to forehand or backhand to backhand have their place but it is a very limited place. You use them to develop your strokes and your timing but ultimately you want to be able to keep good form in your strokes as you are moving to where ever the ball has been hit. So, true, good form means that, when you are moving to the ball and did not where it was going until it hit the other person's racket, you still get there and get your feet set so you can take the shot with good form.
 
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