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  1. ziggy is offline
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    #1

    Did referees spoil London 2012?

    Last night I saw an unforgetable match between Michael Maze and Dimitij Ovtcharov. In the 2nd game Maze was 10-8 up but got faulted on his serve and penalised 1 point. Maze then hit the ball in anger which unfortunately riccoched into the referees chest! The ref then gave him a yellow card.

    Maze was absolutely furious. I couldn't believe he was losing his cool so badly. He proceeded to lose the next point and the game 12-10. Many players would lose concentration and throw the match, but this had the opposite effect. He wiped the floor with Ovtcharov in the next game 11-1!!! After playing some inspired table tennis Maze eventually ran out of steam in the 7th, but I honestly don't know how he lost.

    2 things then....

    Maze's behaviour was pretty unacceptable. He was really disrespectful to the ref and acted agressively toward him...

    but the ref was being really stringent about the service, and during today's Womens Olympic Final decisions apparently overshadowed and even marred what should have been the ultimate showcase of table tennis at it's very best

    So what do you think? Are referees intefering too much, but in any case does this excuse poor manners?

    Are referees being too strict?
    Last edited by ziggy; 08-01-2012 at 11:03 PM.

  2. Steven is offline
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    #2
    I do think Maze's service was illegal because of the throwing angle. Not saying I agree with the rule, but faulting it was right. The big problem is that as far as I know umpires rarely fault services. And now, at the Olympics, they've started doing it. The players have no idea how legal their service is. And worst of all, they've done it in the (quarter) final. I don't think their service has changed throughout this tournament so they should've said something about it during or after their first match, not now. I haven't watched the whole final yet so I can't say much about Ding Ning.*

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    #3
    Women Singles final ..... I hate the referee! I know off-topic ...

  4. Mr. RicharD is offline
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    #4
    I take it you mean the umpires, but I haven't quite seen the matches yet only heard of them so I'll check them out before I state my opinion on the matter. However I would say I'm fairly confident in most international umpires decisions. There have been some really bad calls, but players are always pushing the lines of what the definition or interpretations of the rules may be. Some players fail to read the rules at all and stick to just what is learned through tournament and match play. It's a shame that rules are bent that far. The only decisions any umpire makes that I disagree with are service. There are many good calls, but just as many bad calls. It's clear to me at least that an additional clause is needed to at least define what a legal service is rather than leave it up to interpretation.

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    #5
    I just wish the referees would call these more often, the rules need to be enforced more consistently.
    Ding Ning clearly did not throw the ball high enough, she threw it up about 2 inches, it may have fallen further than the required distance but that's not the rule. She spoiled the final herself by letting it get to her, she did not show the composure of an Olympic gold medallist.

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    After watching the Women's Gold Medal match, I can say without a doubt that the Umpire was not calling a fair match. She faulted Ding Ning 3 times and even cost her 2 points with 1 fault (yellow and red card). After watching the replay, no one (ever the professionals watching the match) could understand what the problem was. Ding Ning and China deserve an apology from that Umpire.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    I just wish the referees would call these more often, the rules need to be enforced more consistently.
    Ding Ning clearly did not throw the ball high enough, she threw it up about 2 inches, it may have fallen further than the required distance but that's not the rule. She spoiled the final herself by letting it get to her, she did not show the composure of an Olympic gold medallist.
    probably True that. but why must she give a red-yellow card and 2 points in such Olympic Final ? Want to show off how powerful an umpire is ? We'd call it fair ?

    Anyway, Li X X totally deserves a win even there wasn't some controversies with umpire .. when the ball cames to her left side, she used that unbelievable back hand flips and when the ball cames to her right, she used very strong spins .. wooa !
    Last edited by mgpyone; 08-02-2012 at 01:33 AM.

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    Yes the match was ruined by the umpiring decisions, now we will never know if li xiaoxia would have won if ding ning had been treated fairly. It's obvious that the umpires have been told to be extremely strict on the ball toss as i have seen more service faults during these olympics than i have my whole life. even timo boll got faulted twice in a match when he is renowned for having a perfect service technique. The most annoying thing is that players like ding and boll are not gaining any real advantage by throwing the ball 1mm less than they should or 1 degree more to the side than they should, they have just developed in an environment that this is acceptable and to go from that to the utmost strictness not only wrecks the players' confidence, but makes the audience's viewing lower in quality. No wonder Ding Ning was reduced to tears, with the umpire harshly showing the red card when ding ning asked politely what she did wrong with the serve so she could prevent the same from happening again. When Ding Ning is probably one of the nicest and pleasant personalities in the chinese team. However i do admit that Maze's service toss did gain an advantage in that he could impart more spin using that illegal toss that was evidently non-vertical. But i do understand his frustrations. I just hope that the umpires do not ruin any more matches and let the players showcase their talents without interruption.

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    #9
    Didn't see this 10+ years ago..
    LOL to ittf..
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    Crossover to Takeover!

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    #10
    umpire screwed it up real bad. several points here and there, and then 2 consecutive points. 4 years lmao. ittf sucks real bad. from commentator to rules to umpire.

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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ziggy
    Last night I saw an unforgetable match between Michael Maze and Dimitij Ovtcharov. In the 2nd game Maze was 10-8 up but got faulted on his serve and penalised 1 point. Maze then hit the ball in anger which unfortunately riccoched into the referees chest! The ref then gave him a yellow card.

    Maze was absolutely furious. I couldn't believe he was losing his cool so badly. He proceeded to lose the next point and the game 12-10. Many players would lose concentration and throw the match, but this had the opposite effect. He wiped the floor with Ovtcharov in the next game 11-1!!! After playing some inspired table tennis Maze eventually ran out of steam in the 7th, but I honestly don't know how he lost.
    Again ..
    I think he lost because of his own head. He was strong as far as he was behind.
    When he got into the lead and believed he can really win, he stopped play.
    He was 4:2 in front at 3:2 on games, suddenly 4:8 ..
    Then in the deciding he was 5:2 in the lead and yet few points later 6:6, so it was not the umpire.
    It was Maze by himself, loosing the match.
    He played better, he just was not mentally strong enough.. His own fault..

    Quote Originally Posted by dongminglau
    Yes the match was ruined by the umpiring decisions, now we will never know if li xiaoxia would have won if ding ning had been treated fairly.
    I do.
    She would win. Li played much better

  12. Michal_Z is offline
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    #12
    Ok and to the topic:
    Yes they are too strict.
    I think they hurt Ding Ning pretty bad. Who knows how will this reflect in the team event.
    Truth is, that the fault was there, the ball toss was clearly not high enough.
    Also truth is that the red yellow cards was pretty huge for what happened.
    Anyways, maybe if Ding Ning thinks and watches the match, she will see the main thing - she wouldnt win it anyway.
    The gold went to the better player.

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  13. TableOhTennis is offline
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    #13
    if anyone can find download links to the videos please post it! i have no time to watch the livestream
    I totally missed this! Okay, let me explain first! Haha! I was in Singapore for vacation and then school started last June so I was really, really busy and I haven't got time for this. I'm so sorry! Okay, I promise to update at least once a week , okay?

  14. ziggy is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michal_Z
    Again ..
    I think he lost because of his own head. He was strong as far as he was behind.
    When he got into the lead and believed he can really win, he stopped play.
    He was 4:2 in front at 3:2 on games, suddenly 4:8 ..
    Then in the deciding he was 5:2 in the lead and yet few points later 6:6, so it was not the umpire.
    It was Maze by himself, loosing the match.
    He played better, he just was not mentally strong enough.. His own fault..


    I do.
    She would win. Li played much better
    I hadn't thought of it like that. Maze is a real character; we need more guys like him, I just can't agree with being aggresive toward the officials.

    Also, total respect due to the Denmark fans!! They were brilliant on Tuesday night.

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    #15
    Who can tell me, how many legal serves did Wang Hao in semifinal do? (nothyng)

    (2.6.5 As soon as the ball has been projected, the server’s free arm and hand shall be removed from the space between the ball and the net.The space between the ball and the net is defined by the ball, the net and its indefinite upward extension.)

    Why did the umpires only one see?

  16. iLov4X is offline
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    #16
    i dont know whether legal or illegal....but she're the top players and has played so many comp be4 n never happen this things...legal or illegal is all depend on the referees....im sure tat the referees dont like dinning mch :/ sad case
    It's ok u disagree with me

    I cant force u to be RIGHT.

  17. Der_Echte is offline
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    #17
    Pros train to make legal and illegal serves. Pros know the rules. Their coaches know the rules. ITTF umpires know the rules. The problems with our serving situation is a consistant proper enforcement of the rules by the umpires and the players' desire to challenge the umpires and stretch out how far they go before the umpire has enough. Apparently, the umpires are only beginning to call lets and are mighty inconsistant in doing so. Either the standard must be upheld by umpires and the players CLEARLY comply with serve rules instead of pushing the line, or the serve rule needs to be changed to either allow hidden serves, or allow only BH serves.
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    #18
    Ding Ning lost only a couple of points from the actual penalties, but she clearly lost focus after the first penalty. Ding's serves look very 'trained', and I don't think she was serving different than she usually does, neither was she gaining unfair advantage from her toss.
    Maze's toss is always on the edge, but he doesn't get called much for it. It is his own risk to keep tossing like that though. But still the rules just don't specify how straight the toss has to be, which is lame. Personally I think it is very hard to gain advantage from tossing not straight as long as you throw it up enough, because the hand with the ball needs to start above the table. This means that you always hit the ball when it is falling, else you produce a high serve which will get ripped. So I think the 'straight up' rule which is not a decent rule should just be removed.

    What we know for fact is that these calls destroy a match. Every point after a call players will not be sure if the service was correct until the rally is going on, which makes them lose concentration. If Maze wouldn't have lost his cool he might have won the match easily. His toss wasn't gaining him unfair advantage, so the referee just stole 1 gamepoint from him plus his focus. This shouldn't happen..
    At the end of the match Maze just wasn't as good on his own service as Dima was on his, and in the middle of the match Maze had the better serves. Service was so important in that match, giving Ovtcharov that point was just like a tennis referee giving one player a break point for free.

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    I just wish the referees would call these more often, the rules need to be enforced more consistently.
    Ding Ning clearly did not throw the ball high enough, she threw it up about 2 inches, it may have fallen further than the required distance but that's not the rule. She spoiled the final herself by letting it get to her, she did not show the composure of an Olympic gold medallist.
    Thats the thing, every person is different so every referee's view of what is legal and illegal is different. If anything they should all try to uniformly call things less often. If they start calling things more it ruins the game. All of the sudden refs who know nearly nothing about the game are interjecting themselves into it, and in many instances can effectively change the outcome of the game, which simply isn't right. The fact is, throwing the ball up only 4 inches as opposed to 6 or throwing the ball back a little has such a tiny effect on the serve that to call a foul and give the opposing player a point is not right. Professional serves spin at such high rotations per second that throwing the ball back a little adds so little spin that it has no effect. The rule that players have to throw the ball up is to make sure that they are imparting spin on the ball with their hand when the paddle hits the ball. Therefore whether the ball is thrown up 4 or 6 inches makes little difference as to the spin

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by TME
    I just wish the referees would call these more often, the rules need to be enforced more consistently.
    Ding Ning clearly did not throw the ball high enough, she threw it up about 2 inches, it may have fallen further than the required distance but that's not the rule. She spoiled the final herself by letting it get to her, she did not show the composure of an Olympic gold medallist.
    Clearly you have no understanding of what happened... She did not get upset because she lost the point (well two points with the red card). She got upset because she had NO idea why. The umpire failed to communicate what was wrong with her serve. Ding Ning said in the interview after that she didn't know what she was doing wrong and how to fix it. this would create uncertainty with all her serves and destroy the purity of the entire match.

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