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    #1

    Soft vs Hard Rubbers

    Hi, I just bought my first made racket
    FH: Neo Hurricane 3(40)
    BH: Galaxy Moon Max Tense
    Blade:Galaxy T-11+
    I was playing with a pre-made racket before with FH and BH Friendship 729 Super FX
    Now I'm having difficulties adapting to the new racket.
    It seems to me that the neo hurricane 3 produce less spin than my old Super FX which isn't supposed to be the case. When I spin the ball with my FH it seems to me that the contact with the ball is longer with the Super FX whereas the ball immediately bounce off upon contact with the Neo Hurricane 3. Even during serve I sense better spin with FX, the ball literally just bounce off without much spin with the Neo Hurricane 3
    I think it might be due to the degree of the sponge but I cannot find much difference between the 2 rubbers on that aspect.
    I went with 40 degrees because I heard that it produce more spin, better etc, but this doesn't seem to be the case. Anyone has ever experienced this? Thanks
    Last edited by chiz; 02-26-2013 at 06:19 PM.

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    #2
    i havent... i chop with hurricane 3 (normal, commercial), and find it very spinny..so cant really help, sorry...
    i found generally, when i attacked, the softer the rubber, the faster it is. although obviously most soft rubber produce a lot of spin too.
    i find the chinese rubbers are generally very tacky and good for spinning though, and h3 is one of the best, so im not a lot of help...sorrry :/
    perhaps its just a duff sheet.

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    #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Chopper
    i havent... i chop with hurricane 3 (normal, commercial), and find it very spinny..so cant really help, sorry...
    i found generally, when i attacked, the softer the rubber, the faster it is. although obviously most soft rubber produce a lot of spin too.
    i find the chinese rubbers are generally very tacky and good for spinning though, and h3 is one of the best, so im not a lot of help...sorrry :/
    perhaps its just a duff sheet.
    H3 is very tacky?How do you judge that?because after a few hours of play I can only slightly feel the tackiness. and I did not find it especially tacky as new.

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    #4
    it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber. you need more brushing of the ball to get more spin, and not going through the ball as much as before. cant say for sure without seeing, or for that matter feeling what you are doing.

    but i think the issue definitely comes down to developing a better feel for touch and brushing the ball.
    but im no expert, im just thinking physics wise that's what makes sense :]
    hope that helped

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Pish
    it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber. you need more brushing of the ball to get more spin, and not going through the ball as much as before. cant say for sure without seeing, or for that matter feeling what you are doing.

    but i think the issue definitely comes down to developing a better feel for touch and brushing the ball.
    but im no expert, im just thinking physics wise that's what makes sense :]
    hope that helped
    I can copy that. The harder the sponge is, the more you need to work on your touch. While it is easier to generate a certain amount of spin with softer rubbers you can get a lot more spin with the H3 due to its tacky rubber, but, as already mentioned, you have to improve your "touch".

    It is the same thing, when deciding the thickness of the sponge. Maximum generates more speed and spin but needs a cleaner technique than thinner sponges.

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    #6
    Quote Originally Posted by BLUE
    I can copy that. The harder the sponge is, the more you need to work on your touch. While it is easier to generate a certain amount of spin with softer rubbers you can get a lot more spin with the H3 due to its tacky rubber, but, as already mentioned, you have to improve your "touch".

    It is the same thing, when deciding the thickness of the sponge. Maximum generates more speed and spin but needs a cleaner technique than thinner sponges.
    Again why do everyone says H3 is very tacky?I did not find it that way. In fact I when comparing Super FX and H3 as new I would say I find Super FX tackier.

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    #7
    edit: too many edits, made new post.
    Last edited by Markvee; 02-27-2013 at 03:54 PM.

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    #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Markvee
    Have you tried removing the old rubbers from your premade rackets? You might need some acetone.
    not yet, I still play with it to compare it with the new racket.

    Also is it normal that H3 is not as tacky as before with around 2hrs of play?I mean I see a very big difference when it's new and after 2hrs.

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    #9
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Pish
    it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber.
    Well, yes and no, depends on what blade you use. If you are playing a hard sponge on a very flexy blade, the hard sponge will really engage the blade flex and as a result, your racket will have plenty dwell.

    A soft rubber on the same racket, will typically not engage the blade flex as much, so you get more dwell from the rubber but much less dwell from the blade.

    (Soft rubber will take much of the ball's impact energy, and use it to catapult the ball, so much the energy gets dissipated in the sponge. Hard dead sponges let most of the impact energy push the rubber into the blade, so if the blade is flexy, you get dwell and catapult from the blade instead of the rubber.)

    I play a very flexy blade with hard rubber on the forehand and soft on the backhand, and this effect is very noticeable if I twiddle. (I twiddle when I EJ my soft backhand rubber and I'm curious of how it plays on the forehand.)

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    Last edited by Markvee; 02-27-2013 at 12:16 AM.

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    #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Markvee
    Well, yes and no, depends on what blade you use. If you are playing a hard sponge on a very flexy blade, the hard sponge will really engage the blade flex and as a result, your racket will have plenty dwell. (On this kind of blade, the rubber won't spit the ball out before the blade flexes back.)

    A soft rubber on the same racket, will typically not engage the blade flex as much, so you get more dwell from the rubber but less dwell from the blade.

    I play a very flexy blade with hard rubber on the forehand and soft on the backhand, and this effect is very noticeable if I twiddle. (I twiddle when I EJ my soft backhand rubber and I'm curious of how it plays on the forehand.)
    i agree, just speaking in general terms, the harder the sponge, the more Brush/touch you need in your stroke to get the most out of it
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    #11
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Pish
    it comes down to technique with the rubber differences. because H3 has a very hard sponge, there is not alot of time that the ball is contacting it before it is off the rubber. you need more brushing of the ball to get more spin, and not going through the ball as much as before. cant say for sure without seeing, or for that matter feeling what you are doing.

    but i think the issue definitely comes down to developing a better feel for touch and brushing the ball.
    but im no expert, im just thinking physics wise that's what makes sense :]
    hope that helped
    How do I get more brushing if there is less contact time?

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    #12
    Sponge hardness is a topic that is often misunderstood. Various amounts of spin & speed are produced on the ball depending on several factors...
    These factors are

    1)Dwell time (mostly related to spin but in soft rubbers it creates speed also)

    2)Power of the stroke (related to spin & spin also, the harder the hit the faster the ball, the harder the brush the spinnier the ball)

    3)Tehcnique timing & angle of the stroke that also produce different amounts speed & spin

    Some physics to understand better



    There are two forces on the ball a) the tangential one that creates spin b)and the lateral one that creates speed

    Notice that by the term speed we mean horizontal speed not vertical! The actual result of these two forces is that the ball is travelling spinny and speedy creating an arc.

    Lets assume that a table tennis sponge is like a spring . Hard springs when compared to softer ones when fully compressed produce more force thus more acceleration (F= K X A , Newton's law) thus more speed, to the object that compresses them. K is the modulus of elasticity of the spring=sponge, F the Force , A fore acceleration

    Conclusion no1 : When the sponge is hard you need strong hitters to manage to compress the sponge at its full in order to take full advantage of its abilities ! To achieve that you need a hard hitter with perfect timing and angle of the racket. Like any chinese professional player for example...doesnt have to be top10. That doesnt mean that if you are in good physical condition with fast footwork and good body & wrist rotation (but not a pro player) you cant play effectively with a chinese rubber
    .
    Conclusion no2 : With softer sponges (the sponge has more "porosity") you need less power and have big margin for error in your angle of your strokes to achieve a desired arc (speed&spin). Because of the softness, the ball compresses easily the sponge at its full potential giving you & me and the whooole TTdaily forum amateur players an easy task!

    Conclusion no3 : Knowing the importance of timing, paddle angle and sponge hardness, underspins lifted with hard rubbers need perfect technique and timing compared to the soft ones. A heavy underspin if lifted with a small error in technique using a soft rubber, maybe will not be lifted (or lifted with less pace & arc) with a hard rubber. BUT when you learn your technique correctly and learn to lift every underspin ball with ease, using hard rubbers will give you more effective shots

    So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

    p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.

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    #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    Sponge hardness is a topic that is often misunderstood. Various amounts of spin & speed are produced on the ball depending on several factors...
    These factors are

    1)Dwell time (mostly related to spin but in soft rubbers it creates speed also)

    2)Power of the stroke (related to spin & spin also, the harder the hit the faster the ball, the harder the brush the spinnier the ball)

    3)Tehcnique timing & angle of the stroke that also produce different amounts speed & spin

    Some physics to understand better



    There are two forces on the ball a) the tangential one that creates spin b)and the lateral one that creates speed

    Notice that by the term speed we mean horizontal speed not vertical! The actual result of these two forces is that the ball is travelling spinny and speedy creating an arc.

    Lets assume that a table tennis sponge is like a spring . Hard springs when compared to softer ones when fully compressed produce more force thus more acceleration (F= K X A , Newton's law) thus more speed, to the object that compresses them. K is the modulus of elasticity of the spring=sponge, F the Force , A fore acceleration

    Conclusion no1 : When the sponge is hard you need strong hitters to manage to compress the sponge at its full in order to take full advantage of its abilities ! To achieve that you need a hard hitter with perfect timing and angle of the racket. Like any chinese professional player for example...doesnt have to be top10. That doesnt mean that if you are in good physical condition with fast footwork and good body & wrist rotation (but not a pro player) you cant play effectively with a chinese rubber
    .
    Conclusion no2 : With softer sponges (the sponge has more "porosity") you need less power and have big margin for error in your angle of your strokes to achieve a desired arc (speed&spin). Because of the softness, the ball compresses easily the sponge at its full potential giving you & me and the whooole TTdaily forum amateur players an easy task!

    Conclusion no3 : Knowing the importance of timing, paddle angle and sponge hardness, underspins lifted with hard rubbers need perfect technique and timing compared to the soft ones. A heavy underspin if lifted with a small error in technique using a soft rubber, maybe will not be lifted (or lifted with less pace & arc) with a hard rubber. BUT when you learn your technique correctly and learn to lift every underspin ball with ease, using hard rubbers will give you more effective shots

    So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

    p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.
    what a great post.
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    #14
    I know this thread thread and post are old but I couldn't let it pass after seeing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by John_Pish
    what a great post.

    This is what bothers me. TT forums are full of bad information.

    TTFrenzy is confused.
    Newtons second law is F=m*a
    https://byjus.com/physics/laws-of-motion/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion

    Hooke's law is
    F = k*x
    https://byjus.com/physics/laws-of-motion/

    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    1)Dwell time (mostly related to spin but in soft rubbers it creates speed also)
    No, Force causes acceleration which is integrated over time to yield speed.
    Increase the dwell time does provide more time to integrate the acceleration but if the dwell time is shorter the same is accomplished with more force.

    Lifting underspin is a function of technique. It is about matching the paddle speed upwards to match the surface speed of the ball so there is no net force pushing the ball down.

    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    When the sponge is hard you need strong hitters to manage to compress the sponge at its full in order to take full advantage of its abilities !
    Again, repeating garbage. What happens when brushing the ball? There is very little normal force compressing the sponge.
    Harder sponges don't let the ball penetrate as much.

    Harder or softer. Does it make a difference? Hooke's law above, F=k*x, is really a better way look at "hard " and "soft". Durometer. is measuring a resistance to a sharp penetration. TT balls are blunt. Also there are no units for durometer. So how much force does it take to compress a 38 degree rubber 0.1mm? The spring constant has units of force/distance. Something that would be useful is how many Newtons for force does it take to compress a rubber 1 mm. Maybe to compress 0.1 mm would be better since there are sponges less that 1mm thick.

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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by brokenball
    I know this thread thread and post are old but I couldn't let it pass after seeing it.

    This is what bothers me. TT forums are full of bad information.

    TTFrenzy is confused.
    Newtons second law is F=m*a
    https://byjus.com/physics/laws-of-motion/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion

    Hooke's law is
    F = k*x
    https://byjus.com/physics/laws-of-motion/


    No, Force causes acceleration which is integrated over time to yield speed.
    Increase the dwell time does provide more time to integrate the acceleration but if the dwell time is shorter the same is accomplished with more force.

    Lifting underspin is a function of technique. It is about matching the paddle speed upwards to match the surface speed of the ball so there is no net force pushing the ball down.


    Again, repeating garbage. What happens when brushing the ball? There is very little normal force compressing the sponge.
    Harder sponges don't let the ball penetrate as much.

    Harder or softer. Does it make a difference? Hooke's law above, F=k*x, is really a better way look at "hard " and "soft". Durometer. is measuring a resistance to a sharp penetration. TT balls are blunt. Also there are no units for durometer. So how much force does it take to compress a 38 degree rubber 0.1mm? The spring constant has units of force/distance. Something that would be useful is how many Newtons for force does it take to compress a rubber 1 mm. Maybe to compress 0.1 mm would be better since there are sponges less that 1mm thick.

    dude have you ever played at a competitive level with proper technique with soft and hard rubbers? Hard rubbers DO need more force, F=k*x does not explain everything especially in a dynamic not static phenomenon like lifting underspin. If you are trying to use physics on me, at least use it correctly. Im not gonna bother answering again cause anyone with physics and dynamics of ball movement understanding, and i dont mean the laws of physics, knows what im talking about.

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    #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy

    dude have you ever played at a competitive level with proper technique with soft and hard rubbers? Hard rubbers DO need more force, F=k*x does not explain everything especially in a dynamic not static phenomenon like lifting underspin. If you are trying to use physics on me, at least use it correctly. Im not gonna bother answering again cause anyone with physics and dynamics of ball movement understanding, and i dont mean the laws of physics, knows what im talking about.

    And what part did you have a problem with? You attack without being specific. What did I say that is wrong? People want to know!
    I never said F=k*x explains everything but it is an important part of any simulation that has to do with contact between the ball and rubber.
    Now why do hard rubbers need more force? More force to do what? Be specific. Anybody can make stuff up and make bogus claims.

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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

    p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.
    What do you mean boosted?How do I do that?Actually I have been playing for around 5 years with pre-made rackets and thought that it was time to give custom made ones a try. I mostly read some reviews online to choose my blade and rubbers and bought it off ebay as the prices literally robbery.

    Ty

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    #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TTFrenzy
    Sponge hardness is a topic that is often misunderstood. Various amounts of spin & speed are produced on the ball depending on several factors...
    These factors are

    1)Dwell time (mostly related to spin but in soft rubbers it creates speed also)

    2)Power of the stroke (related to spin & spin also, the harder the hit the faster the ball, the harder the brush the spinnier the ball)

    3)Tehcnique timing & angle of the stroke that also produce different amounts speed & spin

    Some physics to understand better



    There are two forces on the ball a) the tangential one that creates spin b)and the lateral one that creates speed

    Notice that by the term speed we mean horizontal speed not vertical! The actual result of these two forces is that the ball is travelling spinny and speedy creating an arc.

    Lets assume that a table tennis sponge is like a spring . Hard springs when compared to softer ones when fully compressed produce more force thus more acceleration (F= K X A , Newton's law) thus more speed, to the object that compresses them. K is the modulus of elasticity of the spring=sponge, F the Force , A fore acceleration

    Conclusion no1 : When the sponge is hard you need strong hitters to manage to compress the sponge at its full in order to take full advantage of its abilities ! To achieve that you need a hard hitter with perfect timing and angle of the racket. Like any chinese professional player for example...doesnt have to be top10. That doesnt mean that if you are in good physical condition with fast footwork and good body & wrist rotation (but not a pro player) you cant play effectively with a chinese rubber
    .
    Conclusion no2 : With softer sponges (the sponge has more "porosity") you need less power and have big margin for error in your angle of your strokes to achieve a desired arc (speed&spin). Because of the softness, the ball compresses easily the sponge at its full potential giving you & me and the whooole TTdaily forum amateur players an easy task!

    Conclusion no3 : Knowing the importance of timing, paddle angle and sponge hardness, underspins lifted with hard rubbers need perfect technique and timing compared to the soft ones. A heavy underspin if lifted with a small error in technique using a soft rubber, maybe will not be lifted (or lifted with less pace & arc) with a hard rubber. BUT when you learn your technique correctly and learn to lift every underspin ball with ease, using hard rubbers will give you more effective shots

    So...If you have good technique footwork and physique you can play with a hard tacky rubber like the hurricane (boosted of course...chinese rubbers were invented to be boosted) . If you are a beginner who still is improving his shots prefer a soft rubber.

    p.s. Notice that conclusion1&2&3 are considering the exact same stroke with the exact same incoming ball to your paddle.
    Amazing post! I learnt a lot there!
    Out Now: TableTennisDaily.com 2.0

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    #19
    Quote Originally Posted by chiz
    Hi, I just bought my first made racket
    FH: Neo Hurricane 3(40)
    BH: Galaxy Moon Max Tense
    Blade:Galaxy T-11+
    I was playing with a pre-made racket before with FH and BH Friendship 729 Super FX
    Now I'm having difficulties adapting to the new racket.
    It seems to me that the neo hurricane 3 produce less spin than my old Super FX
    T-11 is a fast blade, and won't hold the ball nearly as long as a typical pre-made racket. (These are usually allround-style 5-ply rackets which have lots of dwell.) I think this is the main problem.

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    #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Markvee
    T-11 is a fast blade, and won't hold the ball nearly as long as a typical pre-made racket. (These are usually allround-style 5-ply rackets which have lots of dwell.) I think this is the main problem.

    Yep. This is my belief too. The T11+ is the fastest i've played with, and it was difficult in many ways. I use the dhs pg5x mainly now. Not too fast inner alc blade. It works great with h3n.

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