Stiga Calibra Tour Rubber Review

haggisv said:

That seems very unfair and totally unfounded. I have a great deal of respect for both these members, and to imply that their opinions are based on resentment of ttdaily becoming more popular and a threat to OOAK is quite disrespectful to them, and I'm sure totally unfounded.
Sorry to get this thread off track Dan, but I felt this had to be said.

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At no point did I say that ttdaily was a threat to OOAK forums but It is quite clear to me that one of the posters on here "Elvis" was intentionally trying to cause friction when HE did compare the two forums saying that HE thought that ttdaily was "a place for people who don't want to think for themselves". This was a completely unnecessary comment from a user who has only posted a couple of times most of which have been made to complain about this site. The very fact that this is also your first point leads me to believe that you are clearly communicating to them away somewhere else unless you casually stumbled upon this thread by luck and had no idea that two OOAK forum members where trying to attack this forum. This again leads me to believe that you are also only on here to cause more argument by backing up someone who is clearly in the wrong. As I said before it is clear what Elvis was trying to do by posting non-constructive negative feedback that can't possibly be defended.

Stop fighting about something silly like which forum is the better one or not. Elvis should just apologize... He has a point on the fact that Dan isn't neutral when making the review but saying this forum is full of people who can't think for themselves is just hilarious really
I had a good laugh about it

Hey guys, please calm down all
Forums are different yes, but that does not mean one is better than another. I welcome all TT forums!

I do understand why some people say the video looks a bit like an advertisement. And when someone think so, he/she should be allowed to speak his/her mind.
Videos like to this truly have added value when you are looking for more info on a certain rubber or blade. In this case it shows the difference of the 3 rubbers in arc, speed and sound for example.

For me, in an ultimate review video I would like to see new equipment compared to current equipment. For example, these rubbers compared to Bluefire, Evolution and Tenergy on the same blade. I do understand this would mean a huge amount of work, but it would make a fantastic video!
(I know, most of you out there reading this say: make one yourself. And you're right, but with a 60hr work-week it's hard for me to find the time for it. So, I'm very gratefull for all video's)

Thanks to all who contributed to this video and keep up the good work!

Scorpnox said:

Stop fighting about something silly like which forum is the better one or not. Elvis should just apologize... He has a point on the fact that Dan isn't neutral when making the review but saying this forum is full of people who can't think for themselves is just hilarious really
I had a good laugh about it

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I at no point argued on what forum was better. But anyway yes I agree with you Elvis should just apologise and everyone should stop argueing.

TJ said:

I understand your point about there being a lot of Stiga in this video but that's because he's reviewing stiga equipment, at the end of the day "Elvis" is blatantly trying to cause an argument so I put him in his place as I felt it was deserved especialy when he said that the people on this forum "don't want to speak for themselves" which I'm sure you would agree was out of order. Dan is testing out three rubbers that haven't been released yet and at no point does he say BUY THESE RUBBERS which would be considered advertising. What he has done is compared them against each other and said which rubbers suit styles of play compared to each other. I also completely disagree with you saying that this isn't a neutral review as he has not said it is better or worse then any other rubber. How much more neutral can you get? He has not said in anything about them being better then tenergy and he wouldn't in the future unless he truly believes it. I can see there maybe some resentment creeping in from OOAK forum members who feel that ttdaily is also becoming a very good forum. This I don't understand as I like both forums and both have their own identity. Yes I prefer using ttdaily as I have liked watching it evolve from its humble beginnings to the present. I'm sure you'd agree it is now pretty epic

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I agree Elvis should have kept his calm to the reactions he got here, but that doesn't excuse the reactions themselves.

I'm not going to respond to the following criticism: "I also completely disagree with you saying that this isn't a neutral review as he has not said it is better or worse then any other rubber. How much more neutral can you get? He has not said in anything about them being better then tenergy and he wouldn't in the future unless he truly believes it.", because that's not what I wrote. I advise you to read my post again.

Like you said: both fora have their own identity, so there's no reason to be resentful. Don't drag such statement in the discussion: they lead to nothing and only hurt certain people.

flash said:

If they are not allowed to be advertised why are they on the ITTF site being advertised ?

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Check the Rasant history for a comparable story.

Tinykin said:

Whew! There are some harsh criticisms on this thread that I wasn't expecting.

Let me introduce myself. I am Mark Kinlocke and I've been playing TT on and off for the past 50yrs or so. I am an active umpire, a qualified TT coach and an enthusiastic EJ.
I also like photography and I did the camera work behind the video. Videography is new to me but I am learning.
When Dan told me that he had these rubbers to review, it was me who suggested that we do a video rather than the usual write up. I also strongly advised him as to what to say, what to wear and the filming took place at my club, the Bristol Civil Service TTC. It was me who made sure that we played on a Stiga table. I even went so far as to cover the Butterfly logo on the net stand. The idea was that this was a review of Stiga equipment and there should not be the distraction of having other brands in clear view. When we do Butterfly and other brands, we’ll do the same for them. Dan did the editing as he's brilliant at it.
So most of the criticisms should be levelled at me, not Dan.

The direction in the video was deliberate as I believe that it takes at least 3-4 months of constant usage to get to know any equipment properly. For a fairly short, non-scientific review like this, I believe that it is better to show and demonstrate the characteristics and leave viewers to make up their own mind.
Dan will be doing other reviews with equipment from the other brands. I also have a few ideas about looking at presenting some of the technique issues raised in other threads using videos to give a fresh view of stuff.
Yes please, critique all you want with the bad and good. It will all serve to us making improved videos in the future.
BTW, I did not tell Dan that I was going to write this.

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Thx for clearing this all up, Mark. But still my criticism holds and apparently some of the posters are agreeing with me this (might) look like an advertisement. Maybe you could take this into account when making the next review video. IMO the video and Dan should send out neutrality, not affiliation with brand X. His credibility will go way up when he'll be doing that.

TJ said:

At no point did I say that ttdaily was a threat to OOAK forums but It is quite clear to me that one of the posters on here "Elvis" was intentionally trying to cause friction when HE did compare the two forums saying that HE thought that ttdaily was "a place for people who don't want to think for themselves". This was a completely unnecessary comment from a user who has only posted a couple of times most of which have been made to complain about this site. The very fact that this is also your first point leads me to believe that you are clearly communicating to them away somewhere else unless you casually stumbled upon this thread by luck and had no idea that two OOAK forum members where trying to attack this forum. This again leads me to believe that you are also only on here to cause more argument by backing up someone who is clearly in the wrong. As I said before it is clear what Elvis was trying to do by posting non-constructive negative feedback that can't possibly be defended.

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Indeed, we are:

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=17933&start=1875

Haggisv probably stumbled on my reference to this topic in MNNB's blog. You might read it sometimes: it's a quite critical blog. Besides, I don't think you know haggisv is the head moderator of the OOAK forum. I don't think his mission is to tackle Dan's forum and vice versa.

I don't think either Elvis or some of the others should apologize for airing their opinion or both parties should apologize.

Yep, hit me with your critical stick.
Anyway, points taken. If Dan allows me to do another, I'll make sure that he wears a TTD shirt in future.
I am still reluctant at the direct comparison thing as there are too many variables to consider.
But, the majority view appears to favour doing some sort of side by side tests. Maybe we should do it like the car magazines. They usually review a new car in its own feature. Then a couple months later they do side by side comparisons.

A bit of clearing up

First things first, the initial response from Elvis56 that "... this is an advertisement".
The original post had prominent images of the packaging for the rubbers, and also the video had intermittent splashes of Stiga marketing slogans, some with images of known TT champions. While the TT action and spoken content does constitute a reasonable review (and it was stated that there was too limited time for an in depth review), those graphical elements make it appear as an advertisement more than a review. That does not represent a problem in itself, but as previously mentioned it does affect the credibility of the reviewer/advertiser in many people's eyes.

So, is it illegal?
According to ITTF's techical leaflet T4, concerning the approval of racket coverings:
There should be no marketing of new racket coverings before the authorisation has been published. If a racket covering is marketed before the racket covering appears in LARC, the authorisation is void. However, the racket covering may appear in sales brochures etc. provided the validity date is clearly mentioned.
Advertising in itself does not constitute marketing in the meaning that T4 uses. It seems to me that there must be an active effort to "bring the product to market", either as a blatant sales pitch line not disclosing the fact that approval is pending, or actual distribution to the general public for trial and purchase. The OP, as well as Stiga's ads on their own site and elsewhere, clearly state "available from May", and also (according to himself) the reviewer here only had the rubbers for a limited time. I also noted that there were only red rubbers, so there is no way to use those rackets for competition play. Not sure whether that is significant...
I believe that Andro did not adhere to that marketing rule, but rather that they did sell their Rasant before it was officially approved (e.g. to people visiting Andro's booths at sports fairs). Not entirely certain about that with Andro, but Stiga seems in the clear, though (at least by the couple of advertisements I have seen).

So, is an apology in order?
Well, there was some name calling and other. Some agression is in order in a heated argument, and sometimes an apology is called for. I can't say one way or the other. I guess all posters might look through their own comments and responses and decide for themselves.

I can't see any war between TT forums, nor any reason for such conflict. Some posters seem to use that imagined controversy as a point to degrade other posters' credibility. As for me, I am an active member in the OOAK forum, and mostly only a reader in other TT forums. Hold that against me, if you wish...

Lorre said:

Check the Rasant history for a comparable story.



Thx for clearing this all up, Mark. But still my criticism holds and apparently some of the posters are agreeing with me this (might) look like an advertisement. Maybe you could take this into account when making the next review video. IMO the video and Dan should send out neutrality, not affiliation with brand X. His credibility will go way up when he'll be doing that.



Indeed, we are:

http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=17933&start=1875

Haggisv probably stumbled on my reference to this topic in MNNB's blog. You might read it sometimes: it's a quite critical blog. Besides, I don't think you know haggisv is the head moderator of the OOAK forum. I don't think his mission is to tackle Dan's forum and vice versa.

I don't think either Elvis or some of the others should apologize for airing their opinion or both parties should apologize.

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Elvis should definetely apologise for insulting the entire forum as for Haggisv he backs him up which means he is also in the wrong. I didn't say I think ttdaily is better then OAKK I just prefer it as I've watched it grow from the start.

keme said:

First things first, the initial response from Elvis56 that "... this is an advertisement".
The original post had prominent images of the packaging for the rubbers, and also the video had intermittent splashes of Stiga marketing slogans, some with images of known TT champions. While the TT action and spoken content does constitute a reasonable review (and it was stated that there was too limited time for an in depth review), those graphical elements make it appear as an advertisement more than a review. That does not represent a problem in itself, but as previously mentioned it does affect the credibility of the reviewer/advertiser in many people's eyes.

So, is it illegal?
According to ITTF's techical leaflet T4, concerning the approval of racket coverings:
There should be no marketing of new racket coverings before the authorisation has been published. If a racket covering is marketed before the racket covering appears in LARC, the authorisation is void. However, the racket covering may appear in sales brochures etc. provided the validity date is clearly mentioned.
Advertising in itself does not constitute marketing in the meaning that T4 uses. It seems to me that there must be an active effort to "bring the product to market", either as a blatant sales pitch line not disclosing the fact that approval is pending, or actual distribution to the general public for trial and purchase. The OP, as well as Stiga's ads on their own site and elsewhere, clearly state "available from May", and also (according to himself) the reviewer here only had the rubbers for a limited time. I also noted that there were only red rubbers, so there is no way to use those rackets for competition play. Not sure whether that is significant...
I believe that Andro did not adhere to that marketing rule, but rather that they did sell their Rasant before it was officially approved (e.g. to people visiting Andro's booths at sports fairs). Not entirely certain about that with Andro, but Stiga seems in the clear, though (at least by the couple of advertisements I have seen).

So, is an apology in order?
Well, there was some name calling and other. Some agression is in order in a heated argument, and sometimes an apology is called for. I can't say one way or the other. I guess all posters might look through their own comments and responses and decide for themselves.

I can't see any war between TT forums, nor any reason for such conflict. Some posters seem to use that imagined controversy as a point to degrade other posters' credibility. As for me, I am an active member in the OOAK forum, and mostly only a reader in other TT forums. Hold that against me, if you wish...

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Elvis was the one who started the comparison by saying that he thinks ttdaily is for people who can't think for themselves and just follow general opinion. I have at no point stated that I don't like OOAK forums unlike Elvis who degraded ttdaily with the comment that I mentioned above hence why he should apologise

Can we please stop asking for apologies and stop arguing about this?

Let's get back on topic.
I'm curious about the Calibra Tour S and I'm again caught by the EJ virus :S

i think it would be best if we stop this argument right now.
its not nice to read at all, and quite frankly, it has the potential to make people look very silly and say things they regret.
was elvis right to make comments generalising about the people on this forum? no.
however, to pounce on him in the way certain members did was also not right.
i personally am only a member of the ttd forum, and have been from the very beginning. i also reak OOAK and find it very informative also.
i do not wish for some kind of forum v forum argument to break out. that would be quite frankly ridiculous.
elvis wrote in the ooak thread that hewont be posting here again, which is a shame.
to say that ooak are becoming jealous of ttd is ridiculous aswell.

i would advise that we drop the arguing now, please.

i havent watched dans vid because attack rubbers dont really interest me (lol), however I suggest that if you dsilike it, wait until someone writes a full review on tabletennisdb.com or something
this is the first time ive had to write a serious post like this, and i dont want to have to do it again for the wrong reasons. so if the rguing to stop now, that would be nice
lets get back to being a friendly tt family, shall we?

Super Chopper said:

i think it would be best if we stop this argument right now.
its not nice to read at all, and quite frankly, it has the potential to make people look very silly and say things they regret.
was elvis right to make comments generalising about the people on this forum? no.
however, to pounce on him in the way certain members did was also not right.
i personally am only a member of the ttd forum, and have been from the very beginning. i also reak OOAK and find it very informative also.
i do not wish for some kind of forum v forum argument to break out. that would be quite frankly ridiculous.
elvis wrote in the ooak thread that hewont be posting here again, which is a shame.
to say that ooak are becoming jealous of ttd is ridiculous aswell.

i would advise that we drop the arguing now, please.

i havent watched dans vid because attack rubbers dont really interest me (lol), however I suggest that if you dsilike it, wait until someone writes a full review on tabletennisdb.com or something
this is the first time ive had to write a serious post like this, and i dont want to have to do it again for the wrong reasons. so if the arguing to stop now, that would be nice
lets get back to being a friendly tt family, shall we?

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I agree I didn't want to have an argument in the first place I apologise that I went off topic but I couldn't just sit back and let my words get twisted and told I was out of order when I felt I hadn't been. Thanks

Hey all,

I have been away all weekend at the English Nationals So I haven't been able to reply.

Firstly to everyone, this is actually my first review I have ever attempted. I take on board all of your responses both positive and negative and appreciate your time in giving your opinion on this review. I hope this will help me develop and make better reviews in the near future.

Personally, my point of view is this... The Stiga rubbers are still in the testing phase and are not officially released until May 2013 as mentioned in the video. Stiga wanted me to review the comparison between the soft, medium and hard of this specific rubber and for me to tell them which one I preferred.

Once the final version of this rubber is released in May, I can definitely do a full in-depth review comparing other rubbers from various brands. Any ideas on which rubbers should be considered would be much appreciated.

This argument over which forum is better is irrelevant and I respect every website which is trying to promote table tennis and I hope you all do the same

Please lets all have a great time here, and enjoy this wonderful community and opportunity we have in sharing table tennis over the internet.

some interesting result from the nationals Dan?

revulucao said:

some interesting result from the nationals Dan?

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Yeah Revulucao Sam Walker has improved loads since living in Germany. He played fantastic lost in semis to Paul Drinkhall. Liam Pitchford won the final defeating Paul 4-2.

Womens singles final was epic. Kelly beat Joanna 4-3. Amazing rallies, defence vs attack!

Sent from my S2 using Tapatalk 2

Liam Pitchford can do interesting things! i hope he improve and can dispute europeans for example.

Neat review Dan!
I thought that it is going to be done in writing but it's still awesome nevertheless..

Since it is a Stiga product, I think it is quite cool if you could compare the Stiga Calibra line and Stiga Calibra Tour line..
Probably Stiga have made some kind of improvement from the Calibra product line, no?

The video is nicely produced but it would be nice to have heard any drawbacks to the rubbers, if any (there is almost always some trade-off). Stiga, like other manufacturers, give out samples of rubbers to try and hope to get such glowing reviews made of their upcoming products. I don't think, while seeming like an ad, this review could be classed as official marketing unless Stiga actually commissioned it. Really just a clever way to get around the rules maybe, but in effect, nothing has been done wrong because even if the video were classed as "official" it could be classed as a catalog with the rubber release date clearly stated (as required by the T4 leaflet Keme has quoted).

Everyone who does reviews on TT forums tends to express their opinion at the time of review (and sometimes be over-zealous about the positives and forget the negatives), and thats really all Dan has done here. He is guilty of nothing most reviewers including myself have been of before, except the video presentation with its inserted branding put it more in your face, thats all. As a reviewer myself, I know opinions can change in time, especially when the next big thing comes along. But on a forum everyone is entitled to their opinion. It helps if everyone respects that, but not everyone will always. Its the nature of the internet. However, I think TT forums are well complimented by members who share information and opinions across forums. I myself am mainly on the OOAK forum, but have been a member here for quite a while, but rarely post here. I wouldn't have read this thread without it being on MNNB's blog either, but I'm glad it was as I enjoyed the video...especially getting a look at Dan's TT skills! That's the advantage of "cross-forumming"!

Lorre said:

Two, it doesn't mention anything negative about the new rubber.

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I actually think this is a great piece of information. I think it is also accurate. Knowing Dan a little, I know he is a positive kind of guy. So it does not surprise me. But you can take any rubber, Tenergy, for example and examine what it is not good at as well. For instance, Tenergy 05 is not so great for chopping. Tenergy 05 is decent for serving and pushing, but there are loads of rubbers that are a lot better for these things.

Knowing what a rubber does well AND what it does not do as well would be quite helpful in an unbiased review.

That being said, I do think Dan was trying to review these rubbers and say what they do well and show what they do well.

So, the review could say something like, you can generate pretty decent spin with the Medium rubber, but there are other rubbers which do generate more spin without having to make a real comparison to any other specific rubber. My guess is that these rubbers are also acceptable for pushing but, because they have a sponge that is on the bouncy side, they might not be as good for pushing as many other rubbers that are not as offensive. In fact, in the video, as Dan is saying they are good for short game, you can see, when he pushes, that, on many of his pushes, the ball bounces up off his rubber instead of touching forward which shows they are actually not so great for pushing.

A player who is used to the rubber might be able to push very effectively with a speed glue effect offensive rubber, but it still would be useful to know if these rubbers do not do this so well in comparison to, say, a good tacky rubber that has a sort of dead an non bouncy sponge.

Even between the three: Which one is worst at looping underpin? From the video, it looks like the hard one is.

The things that these rubbers do not do well in comparison to each other, may be hinted at by the fact that the positives are emphasized. Therefore, the things that each rubber does not do well is not emphasized.

So Dan says he gets good topspin from the hard rubber, but then he says he gets better topspin from the medium rubber. The hard rubber does not topspin as well.

Dan says the soft rubber has a great sound and gets loads of spin and is good for big swings and play away from the table. The subtext is, IT IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE MEDIUM RUBBER, AT MID DISTANCE OR CLOSE TO THE TABLE.

For the backhand the hard rubber is good for hitting hard and flat. It is "good" for spin, but, not as good as the other two. In other words, the hard version is not so good at spinning for the backhand.

So, all this is in the video. But, it is true, it is worth saying things as they are. It is okay to say, hey the hard version has acceptable topspin but it is the worst one for generating heavy topspin. The soft one is good for far from the table but it is not good at close to the table. The hard one is good for flat hitting, but the medium one is still better because you can smack the ball but you can also get better variations on spin.

So, I think this point by Lorre is an excellent one and well worth looking at.